OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Killed Kenny!

[Buddy Bizarre]

He can not function in a high school offense why should anyone think he can function in a nfl offense the guy was overdue in a weak QB class because of a covid extra year. The entire class is down to howell and purdy who process fadter and read defenses better neither have great arm strength

Your argument is based on the supposition that this is an NFL offense. It's barely even college level with multiple individuals referencing this fact....

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I’ve never seen so many people bend over backwards for a coach who hasn’t done anything meaningful in 14 years.

Let’s ignore that Tomlin last sniffed a playoff win in 2016.

He obviously knows what he’s doing because he eeks out 9s every season.

Mind boggling logic.

I would have replaced Tomlin after the Jags playoff loss. I'm not bending over for him at all.

And even though I think Canada sucks, I do believe we can evaluate Kenny and his performance and up to this point he has played like a backup QB.

Anyways:

Big game tonight:

If the Bengals lose this game, I don't think they make the playoffs. At that point, they will be 5-5, 1-5 in the AFC and 0-3 in the division. And still have to play:

Steelers x2
Jaguars
Chiefs
Colts
Vikings
Browns

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I would have replaced Tomlin after the Jags playoff loss. I'm not bending over for him at all.

And even though I think Canada sucks, I do believe we can evaluate Kenny and his performance and up to this point he has played like a backup QB.

Anyways:

Big game tonight:

If the Bengals lose this game, I don't think they make the playoffs. At that point, they will be 5-5, 1-5 in the AFC and 0-3 in the division. And still have to play:

Steelers x2
Jaguars
Chiefs
Colts
Vikings
Browns

Good question: who do we root for tonight? Answer isn't clear cut....

 

[xlm34]

Good question: who do we root for tonight? Answer isn't clear cut....

The really dumb part of me thinks the Steelers can somehow win this division so a Ravens loss would be cool.

Bengals loss would probably be better for the overall playoff odds though

 

[Empoleon8771]

I like how Pickett can't even "function in a high school offense" despite the fact that he was a Heisman finalist in his final year at Pitt. Completely logical statement to make.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I would have replaced Tomlin after the Jags playoff loss. I'm not bending over for him at all.

And even though I think Canada sucks, I do believe we can evaluate Kenny and his performance and up to this point he has played like a backup QB.

Anyways:

Big game tonight:

If the Bengals lose this game, I don't think they make the playoffs. At that point, they will be 5-5, 1-5 in the AFC and 0-3 in the division. And still have to play:

Steelers x2
Jaguars
Chiefs
Colts
Vikings
Browns

I don’t want to see a five year evaluation with KP.

By the end of next season they should know 100% if he’s their guy or not.

He’s clearly regressed and so afraid to throw picks, that he looks like as you said, a backup.

Until they really need him in the fourth quarter and then he plays well.

A good coach would put his fears aside, like Cowher did in the 05 playoffs, and let the offense run through KP.

The worst that happens is he becomes Kenny PICKett and they start losing.

Now you are at least starting to get some answers that he probably isn’t the guy.

It’s not like Tomlin will lose his job if they start losing, so what is this big fear, unless he is afraid of losing his winning streak.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I like how Pickett can't even "function in a high school offense" despite the fact that he was a Heisman finalist in his final year at Pitt. Completely logical statement to make.

In a down year where he was a 6th year player with a nfl wr. The same issues he had in college he has now. Matt Canada got Nathan peterman drafted at Pittsburgh when ge was the oc

 

[MrBrightside]

The really dumb part of me thinks the Steelers can somehow win this division so a Ravens loss would be cool.

Bengals loss would probably be better for the overall playoff odds though

I think we absolutely should want the Ravens to win tonight.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Before that final year, Pickett was considered a late round pick but from the eye test at Pitt he had the talent of a ~3rd round QB.

The senior season he paid it off but he would not have gone in the 1st of it was not such a weak class.

 

[Empoleon8771]

In a down year where he was a 6th year player with a nfl wr. The same issues he had in college he has now. Matt Canada got Nathan peterman drafted at Pittsburgh when ge was the oc

Addison was literally not even on Pitt in Pickett's first 3 years in college. So what's your dumb excuse for why Pickett was at least a good (not NFL 1st round caliber, but good) college QB in the first 3 years?

I don't even know why I'm entertaining this, you say factually incorrect things in basically every single one of your posts trying to shit on Pickett.

Before that final year, Pickett was considered a late round pick but from the eye test at Pitt he had the talent of a ~3rd round QB.

The senior season he paid it off but he would not have gone in the 1st of it was not such a weak class.

I think this is pretty accurate, I think he was a 3rd round caliber prospect before the senior year and that balooned him into a should be early to mid 2nd round caliber prospect.

That's a hell of a lot different than "he can't function in a high school offense" like what was posted on the last page.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

The really dumb part of me thinks the Steelers can somehow win this division so a Ravens loss would be cool.

Bengals loss would probably be better for the overall playoff odds though

Even with a ravens win we can win the division
They have a rough December rams 49ers jacksonville and Miami chargers

 

[MrBrightside]

I don’t want to see a five year evaluation with KP.

By the end of next season they should know 100% if he’s their guy or not.

He’s clearly regressed and so afraid to throw picks, that he looks like as you said, a backup.

Until they really need him in the fourth quarter and then he plays well.

A good coach would put his fears aside, like Cowher did in the 05 playoffs, and let the offense run through KP.

The worst that happens is he becomes Kenny PICKett and they start losing.

Now you are at least starting to get some answers that he probably isn’t the guy.

It’s not like Tomlin will lose his job if they start losing, so what is this big fear, unless he is afraid of losing his winning streak.

Pickett hasn't regressed. He's essentially the same player this year that he was last year. His yards per attempt, TD per attempt, completion percentage, etc., are all very close to 2022. Really the only notable differences from last year to this are that he throws fewer picks and runs less often.

And the idea that because Ben was given the reins in 2005 that therefore Pickett should be given them in 2023 is nonsense. Ben had demonstrated far more to that point than what Pickett has. Whether it makes you and others sad or not, a 6-3 team is not going to punt the season.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think we absolutely should want the Ravens to win tonight.

I’m leaning this way too. I was thinking a Ravens win over Cleveland last week would have been good too. Maybe their prospects have changed with the Watson injury.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Addison was literally not even on Pitt in Pickett's first 3 years in college. So what's your dumb excuse for why Pickett was at least a good (not NFL 1st round caliber, but good) college QB in the first 3 years?

I don't even know why I'm entertaining this, you say factually incorrect things in basically every single one of your posts trying to shit on Pickett.



I think this is pretty accurate, I think he was a 3rd round caliber prospect before the senior year and that balooned him into a should be early to mid 2nd round caliber prospect.

That's a hell of a lot different than "he can't function in a high school offense" like what was posted on the last page.

His numbers weren’t as good as Mason and he played a year longer
He doesn’t read zone defenses they took out the RPo because he struggles with it they took out the under the center play action because that’s what he said was his biggest adjustment from from college to his rookie year
They call tons of crossers because thats his favorite route the trandlated the offense to west cost because that’s what whipple ran in college. He doesn’t trust his arm to throw it unless the wr is college open

 

[Peat]

So it is lack of preparation by the coaches that explains why Pickett was locking onto one guy and not even trying to see the field? Do you honestly think the coaches tell him to do that? I mean, just look at the play where he forced it to Warren after locking onto him. DJ beats his guy as fully and quickly as you can in the NFL, he's on the same side as Warren and even throws his hand up to try to get Pickett's attention, and Pickett does not even attempt to look at him or anywhere but at Warren, who he forces a ball to even though he is never open. That is on Pickett, not Tomlin or Canada. He did it frequently in the last game, when he had good pass blocking and an elite running game to back him up. The scheme and coaching were fine. The QB play was not.

Lack of preparation =/= Telling people to do stupid things.

If I tell a kid not to turn up to their exam, that's stupid.

If I tell them to turn to the exam but don't tell them what to revise, that's a lack of preparation.

We had a former Steelers player say that the Steelers offence under Canada was the least well taught he's been in. We've have guys say they've increased the professionalism with which they prepare in the last two weeks. Me saying the team's offence isn't adequately prepared isn't me speculating based on Pickett's performance, it's me listening to what past and present Steelers are saying.

I suspect that possibly one of the things going on with inadequate preparation is that Pickett isn't as knowledgeable as he should as to what routes people are running and why. If a TE is complaining that he's not being coached enough on his routes, it feels likely the QB isn't getting it hugely better. Which probably does contribute to locking on.

I suspect that the mental preparation of being told "whatever you do, don't lose the ball" is even worse for this.

And knowing you're underprepared tends to hit confidence.

Was that what was going on with forcing those quick outs to Warren and DJ in the Packers game despite being obviously covered? Personally, I'm writing off those games as being weird due to the rib injuries. I suspect that Canada might have told him "just throw that one as fast as you, if he's not open then fine, right now we don't want you standing in the pocket and we don't want you forcing it downfield" - 3 passes over 10 yards feels coaching instructions. Honestly, if that's how much they trust Pickett to throw he shouldn't be starting, and I think the only reason he is is that Tomlin trusts Pickett to commit less turnovers than Trubisky or Rudolph.

But in general, that's what makes sense to me given what's said. That part of Pickett's problem is not understanding what is happening well enough and that this slows him down. I don't know whether he's good enough with different preparation, but that is more of an open question to me than whether anyone could hit their ceiling with this preparation.



Also, if we're going back to that quick out to Warren... it seems very likely he was told "that's your first read". What is the play design doing to take guys off of Warren? Johnson's go route will take a CB but it does nothing about the LBs. Maybe I'm reading that wrong and the idea is Pickett is just meant to hit whichever of the 3 WRs on go routes burns their man, but that's not exactly great play design either. I'm no expert but that's nothing I see about that play that's designed to confuse any defender about who their guy is, It's just seeing which guy has their guy beat.

And an NFL QB shouldn't be throwing an incomplete to Warren there - but an NFL OC should be coming up with plays that get guys genuinely open on short routes and rely on more than sheer athleticism. And an NFL OC doing that will get the best out of QBs.

But that's mostly independent of the above.

Addison was literally not even on Pitt in Pickett's first 3 years in college. So what's your dumb excuse for why Pickett was at least a good (not NFL 1st round caliber, but good) college QB in the first 3 years?

I don't even know why I'm entertaining this, you say factually incorrect things in basically every single one of your posts trying to shit on Pickett.

Still not as good as NFL teams won't play guys who aren't 100%.

 

[xlm34]

Lack of preparation =/= Telling people to do stupid things.

If I tell a kid not to turn up to their exam, that's stupid.

If I tell them to turn to the exam but don't tell them what to revise, that's a lack of preparation.

We had a former Steelers player say that the Steelers offence under Canada was the least well taught he's been in. We've have guys say they've increased the professionalism with which they prepare in the last two weeks. Me saying the team's offence isn't adequately prepared isn't me speculating based on Pickett's performance, it's me listening to what past and present Steelers are saying.

I suspect that possibly one of the things going on with inadequate preparation is that Pickett isn't as knowledgeable as he should as to what routes people are running and why. If a TE is complaining that he's not being coached enough on his routes, it feels likely the QB isn't getting it hugely better. Which probably does contribute to locking on.

I suspect that the mental preparation of being told "whatever you do, don't lose the ball" is even worse for this.

And knowing you're underprepared tends to hit confidence.

Was that what was going on with forcing those quick outs to Warren and DJ in the Packers game despite being obviously covered? Personally, I'm writing off those games as being weird due to the rib injuries. I suspect that Canada might have told him "just throw that one as fast as you, if he's not open then fine, right now we don't want you standing in the pocket and we don't want you forcing it downfield" - 3 passes over 10 yards feels coaching instructions. Honestly, if that's how much they trust Pickett to throw he shouldn't be starting, and I think the only reason he is is that Tomlin trusts Pickett to commit less turnovers than Trubisky or Rudolph.

But in general, that's what makes sense to me given what's said. That part of Pickett's problem is not understanding what is happening well enough and that this slows him down. I don't know whether he's good enough with different preparation, but that is more of an open question to me than whether anyone could hit their ceiling with this preparation.



Also, if we're going back to that quick out to Warren... it seems very likely he was told "that's your first read". What is the play design doing to take guys off of Warren? Johnson's go route will take a CB but it does nothing about the LBs. Maybe I'm reading that wrong and the idea is Pickett is just meant to hit whichever of the 3 WRs on go routes burns their man, but that's not exactly great play design either. I'm no expert but that's nothing I see about that play that's designed to confuse any defender about who their guy is, It's just seeing which guy has their guy beat.

And an NFL QB shouldn't be throwing an incomplete to Warren there - but an NFL OC should be coming up with plays that get guys genuinely open on short routes and rely on more than sheer athleticism. And an NFL OC doing that will get the best out of QBs.

But that's mostly independent of the above.

For the quick out to Warren, the common consensus from people was that Pickett just got fooled by the defense.

He seemed to think that the linebackers were blitzing in which case the throw to Warren is the right move. But they ended up dropping into coverage and he still threw to Warren. Seems like a case of a young guy just getting fooled and I’m sure he’ll learn from it.

I also saw that DJ was supposed to run a curl, but once he beat his guy so quickly he just kept going.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Pickett hasn't regressed. He's essentially the same player this year that he was last year. His yards per attempt, TD per attempt, completion percentage, etc., are all very close to 2022. Really the only notable differences from last year to this are that he throws fewer picks and runs less often.

And the idea that because Ben was given the reins in 2005 that therefore Pickett should be given them in 2023 is nonsense. Ben had demonstrated far more to that point than what Pickett has. Whether it makes you and others sad or not, a 6-3 team is not going to punt the season.

Ya he’s regressed, that should be obvious to anyone who watched him in the second half of last season.

And it making me sad has nothing to do with it, this is a QB driven league and if the offense stays in its current form, Tomlin will be staring at season 7 without a playoff win.

If you want to be delusional enough to think the smoke and mirrors will work in the playoffs, cool.

Not happening though, sorry.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The really dumb part of me thinks the Steelers can somehow win this division so a Ravens loss would be cool.

Bengals loss would probably be better for the overall playoff odds though

I certainly do not root for losing.

But the goal is championships. This is a team that is designed to lose, and lose by large margins, in the playoffs.

I get that many team's fans would be jealous of any winning. But it gets tiring the hamster wheel of teams built not to lose and not built to actually win.

 

[xlm34]

I certainly do not root for losing.

But the goal is championships. This is a team that is designed to lose, and lose by large margins, in the playoffs.

I get that many team's fans would be jealous of any winning. But it gets tiring the hamster wheel of teams built not to lose and not built to actually win.

I mean I get it, but there’s also nothing I can do to change that so I’ll just go along for the ride and hope that something crazy happens in a single elimination tournament. And when they most likely lose, I’ll be bummed for ten minutes and then move on with my life.

People can root for teams however they want. If it’s probably unwarranted optimism, cool. If it’s constantly bitching about coaches or players, cool. If it’s somewhere in the middle, also cool.

 

[MrBrightside]

Ya he’s regressed, that should be obvious to anyone who watched him in the second half of last season.

And it making me sad has nothing to do with it, this is a QB driven league and if the offense stays in its current form, Tomlin will be staring at season 7 without a playoff win.

If you want to be delusional enough to think the smoke and mirrors will work in the playoffs, cool.

Not happening though, sorry.

Where did I suggest the smoke and mirrors would work in the playoffs? Where did I comment at all about anything like that? I said that Pickett 2023 is basically the same player as Pickett 2022 in most regards. Talk about smoke and mirrors - they won a bunch of games in late 2022 against bad teams the same way they are winning them this year.

 

[Peat]

For the quick out to Warren, the common consensus from people was that Pickett just got fooled by the defense.

He seemed to think that the linebackers were blitzing in which case the throw to Warren is the right move. But they ended up dropping into coverage and he still threw to Warren. Seems like a case of a young guy just getting fooled and I’m sure he’ll learn from it.

I also saw that DJ was supposed to run a curl, but once he beat his guy so quickly he just kept going.

People where? Just curious as to where to get more analysis.

Re the bolded - this to me seems like the sort of thing where I want to ask questions about the preparation given what Sternberger said. If it's just "this guy runs this route, this guy runs that route", are they covering "DJ is running a curl but if he gasses his guy he keeps going"? That seems so elementary I shouldn't be questioning it, but at the same time, since it keeps getting revealed they don't do elementary things...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Where did I suggest the smoke and mirrors would work in the playoffs? Where did I comment at all about anything like that? I said that Pickett 2023 is basically the same player as Pickett 2022 in most regards. Talk about smoke and mirrors - they won a bunch of games in late 2022 against bad teams the same way they are winning them this year.

Uh, that’s exactly where your logic points.

If Tomlin is scared of leaning on KP, how exactly do you think they will win in the playoffs other than smoke and mirrors?

Because that’s exactly what they are doing now.

 

[MrBrightside]

Uh, that’s exactly where your logic points.

If Tomlin is scared of leaning on KP, how exactly do you think they will win in the playoffs other than smoke and mirrors?

Because that’s exactly what they are doing now.

Your entire thesis is that they should consider throwing away the season by forcing Pickett into a role there's little reason to believe he can handle because they can't win a Super Bowl playing this way. If this was 2004-2005 Ben, your argument would be absolutely correct. It's not, and making great the enemy of good by trying to make Pickett into something he isn't is neither going to happen nor should it.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Your entire thesis is that they should consider throwing away the season by forcing Pickett into a role there's little reason to believe he can handle because they can't win a Super Bowl playing this way. If this was 2004-2005 Ben, your argument would be absolutely correct. It's not, and making great the enemy of good by trying to make Pickett into something he isn't is neither going to happen nor should it.

How is it throwing the season away?

Where exactly do you think this season is going if KP doesn’t improve?

There is no logic behind your argument because it continues to point to the smoke and mirrors effect.

 

[MrBrightside]

How is it throwing the season away?

Where exactly do you think this season is going if KP doesn’t improve?

There is no logic behind your argument because it continues to point to the smoke and mirrors effect.

This team is going to win 9-11 games playing the way it is even if KP continues to be the pedestrian. Again, your entire theses are predicated upon the ideas that (a) turning KP loose will make the team better and (b) anything less than a run to the Super Bowl is a failure and no different than 3-14.