OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Blamed Canada

[JTG]

What a bag fumble that would be by Texas if Manning transfers, but that would probably mean Maalik Murphy will stick around and wait his turn. I know Sark is close with Manning and he was a big reason why he went there — is it possible they tell Ewers to kick rocks and play his last season elsewhere?

That's a risk too. Manning is unproven and Ewers would probably be the top pick next year if he stays. This is not how Sark wanted this to go.

 

[Peat]

Latest word on Murray seems to be that Arizona will continue to build around him anyway.

Running the risk of going down this rabbit hole again, I find it inconsistent to argue that Pickett needs more time because he's not been coached well while we wouldn't want Fields who is broken because he wasn't coached well.

A mild demurral would be that Pickett has an extra year of runway to get to the same place as Fields, and it's a pretty important year where people's opinions can change quickly.

A more robust point would be that I - and most other people who aren't anti-Pickett - have said repeatedly that he's probably already irreparably damaged. So there's not really an inconsistency. Not wanting Fields isn't a vote of confidence in Pickett. It is a vote of no confidence in the rest of the team (and Fields).

And honestly, at this point, I don't know how many times I've got to say that. I do not know how the central pillar of this argument isn't sinking in if people are actually reading what's being said.

I - and most others - are not sticking up for Pickett's talent first and foremost. We are first and foremost against what this team does to help QBs. That is the team's major problem, and all resources necessary should be spent on fixing that before anything else.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

That's a risk too. Manning is unproven and Ewers would probably be the top pick next year if he stays. This is not how Sark wanted this to go.

Manning family has stated they wanted to redshirt year .a back up year 2 then starting year 3 he isn’t transferring

 

[MrBrightside]

Latest word on Murray seems to be that Arizona will continue to build around him anyway.



A mild demurral would be that Pickett has an extra year of runway to get to the same place as Fields, and it's a pretty important year where people's opinions can change quickly.

A more robust point would be that I - and most other people who aren't anti-Pickett - have said repeatedly that he's probably already irreparably damaged. So there's not really an inconsistency. Not wanting Fields isn't a vote of confidence in Pickett. It is a vote of no confidence in the rest of the team (and Fields).

And honestly, at this point, I don't know how many times I've got to say that. I do not know how the central pillar of this argument isn't sinking in if people are actually reading what's being said.

I - and most others - are not sticking up for Pickett's talent first and foremost. We are first and foremost against what this team does to help QBs. That is the team's major problem, and all resources necessary should be spent on fixing that before anything else.

I mean, when someone makes 325 posts defending a player and then seem utterly baffled as to why people think you're defending him really doesn't make much sense to me, but whatever. Not really the point. The idea that there's going to be some perfect situation that can be created and only then can the Steelers find a legitimate QB isn't living in reality. Yes, Pickett would certainly perform better if they had McVay as the OC and the best OL in football and the 2019 LSU WR corps, but ideal situations (or even close thereto) seldom exist in the NFL and the Steelers offensive personnel, while not perfect, is functional enough if they have reasonable QB play and better coaching. A good NFL QB can thrive even when facing adversity - hell, look at what Jake Browning did last night or DeVito did in Washington. Two undrafted jobbers in as bad or worse situations had better games than Pickett has ever had. I accept he will be the QB next year for a number of reasons, but waiting for perfect is really the enemy of good here.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Latest word on Murray seems to be that Arizona will continue to build around him anyway.

Murray isn't a guy you "build around", whether you are the Cards or Steelers.

 

[Peat]

I mean, when someone makes 325 posts defending a player and then seem utterly baffled as to why people think you're defending him really doesn't make much sense to me, but whatever. Not really the point. The idea that there's going to be some perfect situation that can be created and only then can the Steelers find a legitimate QB isn't living in reality. Yes, Pickett would certainly perform better if they had McVay as the OC and the best OL in football and the 2019 LSU WR corps, but ideal situations (or even close thereto) seldom exist in the NFL and the Steelers offensive personnel, while not perfect, is functional enough if they have reasonable QB play and better coaching. A good NFL QB can thrive even when facing adversity - hell, look at what Jake Browning did last night or DeVito did in Washington. Two undrafted jobbers in as bad or worse situations had better games than Pickett has ever had. I accept he will be the QB next year for a number of reasons, but waiting for perfect is really the enemy of good here.

Since you're not interested in what I actually say and would rather construct a make believe argument of what I said so you can have arguments with it, kindly do me the courtesy of leaving me out of this altogether.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Source: Pats' Stevenson has high ankle sprain

Tests showed that Patriots RB Rhamondre Stevenson suffered a high ankle sprain in Sunday's loss to the Chargers, and he is expected to miss "a few weeks," a source told ESPN's Adam Schefter.

www.espn.com

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Hahaha- YT comment made my day!

***************************
I’m past caring about Kenny sucking.

It’s Tomlin. All of this is Tomlin.

And ultimately Arty for holding onto Tomlin well past the expiration date.

1. Tomlin’s dumb ass actually pursued Canada.
2. Tomlin’s position coaches are all meh and have been.
3. Neither Tomlin nor anyone he’s hired has ever innovated a damn thing. The last premier innovator on staff was LeBeau and even he got run out of town after he got figured out.
4. Whole team losses like the Cardinals loss have become routine. That’s COACHING.

Why do we still trot Kenward out onto the field?

Cuz Canada.

Whose fault is it that KP got drafted and started? Not KP, that’s for sure.

How much more evidence do we need that Tomlin is not a premier picker of horse flesh?

How much more evidence do we need that he’s the lousiest zombie ever to coach (meaning he’s lousy at picking premier brains for coaching)?

How much more evidence do we need that the game has passed his bullshit attrition mentality by?

By all means let’s bash Kenny.

This team has soooooooo many problems and the tunnel vision on Kenward (granted, the most important position) ignores everything else.

If Roethlisberger at QB couldn’t help us win anything for a decade, who the f*** is?

Sure, let’s draft a much better QB. Prepare to be even more disappointed and frustrated if Tomlin remains.

The only current path to fan happiness is to EMBRACE THE SUCK and develop detached irony.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah my comment about trading for Fields to have both him and Pickett was under the assumption that he'd cost like a 2nd or 3rd. If he costs huge assets, you obviously don't do that.

I'm not a fan of Fields but I can't deny that there is some serious upside with him. I also don't see why they can't keep Pickett but just as a very good veteran backup.

Big difference between a franchise QB who has decided he wants out or the franchise has a difference in philosophy (Watson, Wilson, Murray, Rodgers) vs a franchise saying he can't get to that level. If the Bears move on from Fields, they are plainly saying he isn't good enough.

 

[MrBrightside]

Since you're not interested in what I actually say and would rather construct a make believe argument of what I said so you can have arguments with it, kindly do me the courtesy of leaving me out of this altogether.

Respond or don't, whatever you prefer. If you don't think we can't pull up a ton of pro-Pickett posts that you apparently get annoyed when people notice, that's fine. Carry on.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Big difference between a franchise QB who has decided he wants out or the franchise has a difference in philosophy (Watson, Wilson, Murray, Rodgers) vs a franchise saying he can't get to that level. If the Bears move on from Fields, they are plainly saying he isn't good enough.

I can't people believe that somehow Justin Fields is going to fix this offense.
They'd literally have to design their offense around Fields ala Lamar Jackson. You trust this coaching staff to do that successfully?

 

[MrBrightside]

Steelers-Patriots on Thursday Night Football has the lowest total in 30 years

Steelers-Patriots on Thursday Night Football has a total of 30, the lowest total in an NFL game since 1993.

ftw.usatoday.com

Lowest total since 1993.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I can't people believe that somehow Justin Fields is going to fix this offense.
They'd literally have to design their offense around Fields ala Lamar Jackson. You trust this coaching staff to do that successfully?

I think in this off-season Tomlin is going to have his hands off the offense. They are going to have to woo someone significant and ask him if he prefers Kenny or someone else.

If it's some buddy hire/internal promotion/tallest midget thing again, never mind.
But I think the heat is very much on Tomlin with the offensive hires. Hire the right people and then be laissez faire.

 

[T1K]

Kyler’s contract makes him borderline untradable. Fields isn’t good, and will be looking for a payday like Danny Dimes did… Easy pass for both. I don’t think either would be wise acquisitions.

 

[pistolpete11]

The disconnect on Tomlin between local fans and national media is that the national media sees the 'never had a losing season' (which we mock, but it is pretty impressive) despite major flaws and think he's a genius. Local fans see that Tomlin is the root of those flaws.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

The disconnect on Tomlin between local fans and national media is that the national media sees the 'never had a losing season' (which we mock, but it is pretty impressive) despite major flaws and think he's a genius. Local fans see that Tomlin is the root of those flaws.

Well the local boys are starting to turn on Tomlin at least

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe-starkey/2023/12/04/kenny-pickett-mitch-trubisky-mike-tomlin/stories/202312040055

You’d think a two-touchdown home loss to the Arizona Cardinals would help cure the condition known as “Steelers Delusion,” not inflame it.

But I’m wondering.

It seems to me this loss was cast more as the Steelers overlooking an inferior opponent rather than getting smashed by one they are more like than anyone would care to admit.

This is somehow beneath us, some Steelers seemed to say, which is far preferable to admitting, “This is us.” The delusions are fired by a national media that fawns over Mike Tomlin, ignoring the fact he hasn’t won a playoff game in going on seven years, and even by a local media (myself included) that either overrates the Steelers or launches postgame questions from the perspective that in order to lose to the Arizona Cardinals, they must have been too cocky.


Pittsburgh Steelers tight end Connor Heyward (83) attempts to catch a pass during an NFL football game, Sunday, Dec. 3, 2023, in Pittsburgh.
Ray Fittipaldo
Ray Fittipaldo's Steelers chat transcript: 12.05.23
The illusion — the delusion — surrounding Tomlin’s team truly is something to behold and was personified perfectly by Diontae Johnson’s one-man touchdown celebration late in the fourth quarter. As if there was something to celebrate. As if nobody noticed that the Steelers were still losing by two touchdowns to the Arizona Cardinals.

Just totally oblivious. Kind of the like much of the football world and the Steelers themselves when it comes to analyzing this team over the past six years. I’m thinking it might take a Patriots-like meltdown to smash the mirage.

Tomlin actually fielded questions about whether his team was overconfident, about whether it “overlooked” the Cardinals. Running back Jaylen Warren said the Steelers took the Cardinals “lighter than we should have.”

Are you kidding me?

The Steelers are this close to being the Cardinals. Vegas knows. That’s why it installed the Steelers as just 5.5-point favorites against a 2-10 team and puts their over-under right around .500 every year. Do you know how thin the Steelers’ margin of victory was in several games against middling or flat-out bad competition this season?

They got lucky. Take away two Steelers wins, and turn two narrow Cardinals losses into wins, and you have a couple of five-win teams, which would be a much more accurate reflection of what these Steelers are.

Indeed, if not for a few unbelievably fortuitous bounces, the Steelers are the Cardinals. And the Cardinals are the Steelers.


Cincinnati Bengals quarterback Jake Browning (6) gestures during the first half of an NFL football game against the Jacksonville Jaguars, Monday, Dec. 4, 2023, in Jacksonville, Fla.
Joe Starkey
Joe Starkey’s mailbag: Wait, now Jake Browning is better than Kenny Pickett, too?
Einhorn is Finkel, and Finkel is Einhorn!

So please don’t ask about trap games or overconfidence. The Steelers aren’t good enough to be asked those kinds of questions (and good for Cam Heyward for immediately shooting down such an inquiry). There’s more of a chance of somebody overlooking them than the other way around.

Since their last Super Bowl appearance, 13 years ago, the Steelers have fewer playoff wins than the Houston Texans.

Since the beginning of the 2021 season — a span of 46 games — the Steelers are minus-116 in point differential.

Since the beginning of 2019, the Steelers have been outscored by opponents in four of five seasons.


Maybe the delusion holds because the franchise still carries such cachet. The Steelers remain one of the league’s flagship enterprises. They attract eyeballs. They have an incredible history that includes six Super Bowl championships.

It’s just that none of the above justifies operating from the position that they are a good team, better than most, and therefore above losing to the Cardinals or to Dorian Thompson-Robinson.

Does the illusion hold simply because Tomlin has avoided going 8-9, instead going 9-8, or avoided going 7-9 by going 8-8 three times? Is it really all about the “never had a losing season” sound bite?

If so, please add these two facts:

• The Steelers’ streak of non-losing seasons was ironically born of a losing season: Going 6-10 got them Ben.

• Tomlin might not have a losing season, but he does have a losing playoff record (8-9).

I heard a pregame radio interview with Tomlin about a month ago in which he was asked where he finds all these winning players who thrive in the “weighty moments.” He gave a detailed answer — as if the question had been based in reality. As if the Steelers are actually winning “weighty” games these days, which they most assuredly are not.

What have any of the players on this roster won?

Stripped of the elegant but deceiving apparel of their glorious franchise history, these Steelers have been barely above mediocre for several years now and lucky to even be considered that. If they were the Los Angeles Chargers, people would hardly talk about them. They’d say, “Yeah other than the pandemic season, when Baker Mayfield beat them in the wild card round, they’ve gone 9-6-1, 8-8, 9-7-1, 9-8 and now 7-5 and miss the playoffs half the time. They’re just another team.”

But who am I kidding? The illusion won’t be smashed anytime soon. Like last year, the Steelers are facing a string of bad quarterbacks down the stretch. They’ll probably go 10-7 and sneak into the playoffs in a league where 44% of the teams make it, and Tomlin will get coach of the year votes as national media types pretend he was more a victim of his circumstances than a creator of them, and they’ll get crushed at Kansas City in the wild card round, and Diontae Johnson will do backflips after cutting the deficit to 23 points, and we’ll do the whole thing again next year.

As the inimitable Bart Scott once said, “Can’t wait!”

 

[pistolpete11]

I could maybe be talked into signing Fields. He's younger than Pickett and has steadily progressed year after year. I don't think he 'fixes' things, but he's at least more physically talented than Pickett. Get him a good OC, and maybe there's something there.

I wouldn't trade for Fields, though. I think he's probably just not that good and I wouldn't lose out on the chance to draft a good player to take that risk.

Well the local boys are starting to turn on Tomlin at least

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe-starkey/2023/12/04/kenny-pickett-mitch-trubisky-mike-tomlin/stories/202312040055

You’d think a two-touchdown home loss to the Arizona Cardinals would help cure the condition known as “Steelers Delusion,” not inflame it.

But I’m wondering.

It seems to me this loss was cast more as the Steelers overlooking an inferior opponent rather than getting smashed by one they are more like than anyone would care to admit.

This is somehow beneath us, some Steelers seemed to say, which is far preferable to admitting, “This is us.” The delusions are fired by a national media that fawns over Mike Tomlin, ignoring the fact he hasn’t won a playoff game in going on seven years, and even by a local media (myself included) that either overrates the Steelers or launches postgame questions from the perspective that in order to lose to the Arizona Cardinals, they must have been too cocky.


Pittsburgh Steelers tight end Connor Heyward (83) attempts to catch a pass during an NFL football game, Sunday, Dec. 3, 2023, in Pittsburgh.
Ray Fittipaldo
Ray Fittipaldo's Steelers chat transcript: 12.05.23
The illusion — the delusion — surrounding Tomlin’s team truly is something to behold and was personified perfectly by Diontae Johnson’s one-man touchdown celebration late in the fourth quarter. As if there was something to celebrate. As if nobody noticed that the Steelers were still losing by two touchdowns to the Arizona Cardinals.

Just totally oblivious. Kind of the like much of the football world and the Steelers themselves when it comes to analyzing this team over the past six years. I’m thinking it might take a Patriots-like meltdown to smash the mirage.

Tomlin actually fielded questions about whether his team was overconfident, about whether it “overlooked” the Cardinals. Running back Jaylen Warren said the Steelers took the Cardinals “lighter than we should have.”

Are you kidding me?

The Steelers are this close to being the Cardinals. Vegas knows. That’s why it installed the Steelers as just 5.5-point favorites against a 2-10 team and puts their over-under right around .500 every year. Do you know how thin the Steelers’ margin of victory was in several games against middling or flat-out bad competition this season?

They got lucky. Take away two Steelers wins, and turn two narrow Cardinals losses into wins, and you have a couple of five-win teams, which would be a much more accurate reflection of what these Steelers are.

Indeed, if not for a few unbelievably fortuitous bounces, the Steelers are the Cardinals. And the Cardinals are the Steelers.


Cincinnati Bengals quarterback Jake Browning (6) gestures during the first half of an NFL football game against the Jacksonville Jaguars, Monday, Dec. 4, 2023, in Jacksonville, Fla.
Joe Starkey
Joe Starkey’s mailbag: Wait, now Jake Browning is better than Kenny Pickett, too?
Einhorn is Finkel, and Finkel is Einhorn!

So please don’t ask about trap games or overconfidence. The Steelers aren’t good enough to be asked those kinds of questions (and good for Cam Heyward for immediately shooting down such an inquiry). There’s more of a chance of somebody overlooking them than the other way around.

Since their last Super Bowl appearance, 13 years ago, the Steelers have fewer playoff wins than the Houston Texans.

Since the beginning of the 2021 season — a span of 46 games — the Steelers are minus-116 in point differential.

Since the beginning of 2019, the Steelers have been outscored by opponents in four of five seasons.


Maybe the delusion holds because the franchise still carries such cachet. The Steelers remain one of the league’s flagship enterprises. They attract eyeballs. They have an incredible history that includes six Super Bowl championships.

It’s just that none of the above justifies operating from the position that they are a good team, better than most, and therefore above losing to the Cardinals or to Dorian Thompson-Robinson.

Does the illusion hold simply because Tomlin has avoided going 8-9, instead going 9-8, or avoided going 7-9 by going 8-8 three times? Is it really all about the “never had a losing season” sound bite?

If so, please add these two facts:

• The Steelers’ streak of non-losing seasons was ironically born of a losing season: Going 6-10 got them Ben.

• Tomlin might not have a losing season, but he does have a losing playoff record (8-9).

I heard a pregame radio interview with Tomlin about a month ago in which he was asked where he finds all these winning players who thrive in the “weighty moments.” He gave a detailed answer — as if the question had been based in reality. As if the Steelers are actually winning “weighty” games these days, which they most assuredly are not.

What have any of the players on this roster won?

Stripped of the elegant but deceiving apparel of their glorious franchise history, these Steelers have been barely above mediocre for several years now and lucky to even be considered that. If they were the Los Angeles Chargers, people would hardly talk about them. They’d say, “Yeah other than the pandemic season, when Baker Mayfield beat them in the wild card round, they’ve gone 9-6-1, 8-8, 9-7-1, 9-8 and now 7-5 and miss the playoffs half the time. They’re just another team.”

But who am I kidding? The illusion won’t be smashed anytime soon. Like last year, the Steelers are facing a string of bad quarterbacks down the stretch. They’ll probably go 10-7 and sneak into the playoffs in a league where 44% of the teams make it, and Tomlin will get coach of the year votes as national media types pretend he was more a victim of his circumstances than a creator of them, and they’ll get crushed at Kansas City in the wild card round, and Diontae Johnson will do backflips after cutting the deficit to 23 points, and we’ll do the whole thing again next year.

As the inimitable Bart Scott once said, “Can’t wait!”

Pittsburgh media is somewhere in-between fans and local media, so that tracks.

 

[JTG]

Someone in the media brought up the Steelers trading Tomlin at some point down the road if things do not change, and I couldn't even fathom what that would look like.

Slow Tuesday...let's say it does happen - it probably starts at a Sean Payton return and I'd laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[Peat]

Someone in the media brought up the Steelers trading Tomlin at some point down the road if things do not change, and I couldn't even fathom what that would look like.

Slow Tuesday...let's say it does happen - it probably starts at a Sean Payton return and I'd laugh all the way to the bank.

I think he could be a great grab for a talented organisation that needs a players' coach to get them over the hump and where the owner ensures they get talented co-ordinators.

But for where the Steelers are, I suspect it'd be a great sell. Problem is, I struggle with seeing them do it.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

 

[Coastal Kev]

;

4:40 time stamp comments.

I noticed that last few weeks that Warren is sub par with either picking up blockers and or chipping rushers before his route.
Nearly every KP play that looks terrible, one of his Oline get beat cleanly and are free within 2 seconds. On this play, the AZ left rusher destroys Jones and Warren wiffs. Unless his first read was open from the get go, the play has no shot of working.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

4:40 time stamp comments.

I noticed that last few weeks that Warren is sub par with either picking up blockers and or chipping rushers before his route.
Nearly every KP play that looks terrible, one of his Oline get beat cleanly and are free within 2 seconds. On this play, the AZ left rusher destroys Jones and Warren wiffs. Unless his first read was open from the get go, the play has no shot of working.

He had time to get to his 2nd read. The nfl average from snap to throw is less than 2.4 seconds you just have to process faster

 

[Goalie_Bob]

But for where the Steelers are, I suspect it'd be a great sell. Problem is, I struggle with seeing them do it.

That's my thought as well. I think they feel they are too honorable for a move like that.

Unless Tomlin asked to be moved, like say if they don't offer him an extension and a team wants to pay him a ton and offer a long term deal, Which I could see happening. I could Washington his hometown team and with new ownership backing up the brinks truck for him.

But honestly, to even talk about it is foolish when the owner said it was an honor to work beside him.

 

[JTG]

I think he could be a great grab for a talented organisation that needs a players' coach to get them over the hump and where the owner ensures they get talented co-ordinators.

But for where the Steelers are, I suspect it'd be a great sell. Problem is, I struggle with seeing them do it.

That's my thought as well. I think they feel they are too honorable for a move like that.

Unless Tomlin asked to be moved, like say if they don't offer him an extension and a team wants to pay him a ton and offer a long term deal, Which I could see happening. I could Washington his hometown team and with new ownership backing up the brinks truck for him.

But honestly, to even talk about it is foolish when the owner said it was an honor to work beside him.

That's the key. They don't move shrewdly, though Khan has shown more shark in him than Colbert did in 20 years.

I don't know what team makes that move either, but I don't think there would be any shortage of takers.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

That's the key. They don't move shrewdly, though Khan has shown more shark in him than Colbert did in 20 years.

I don't know what team makes that move either, but I don't think there would be any shortage of takers.

Name all the bottom dwellers in the NFL right now: Pats, Panthers, Cards,etc . They would all be rightfully fawning to get Tomlin.

And again I don't think Tomlin is a terrible coach. I think he's worn out his welcome. He'd take those bad teams to mediocrity.

The flipside is that he'll take a really good team (say the Eagles or Chiefs) and would turn them into mediocrity as well