OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Blamed Canada

[ChaosAgent]

The issue isn't to unlock Pickett. The issue is that you can't throw away another season if Pickett isn't what you and others think/hope/pray he is. You have to have alternatives.

The counter to this is we should roll the dice and get more (badly needed) help at DB and another tackle/center.
If we grab a QB (Murray or Cousins or a 1st RP), that's pretty much the offseason.

I'm still open minded to either, and curious if Trubisky/Rudolph look much worse than Pickett. Because if they look the same or better, that already tells me all I need to know about KP.

 

[MrBrightside]

Next season is thrown away already. I don't want to bother wasting assets on trying to fish it out of the bin.

Honestly I wish they'd embrace the tank and trade Watt. Love seeing the guy in a Pittsburgh uniform, but they are so far away from a functional offence they should bite the bullet and rebuild.

Well that's an entirely different discussion and while it's worth having philosophically, it's not actually going to happen. So in the real world the way this franchise operates the question is whether you go into 2024 with all your eggs in the Pickett basket. You can't do that unless you're prepared to punt, and that's just not something they will do.

The counter to this is we should roll the dice and get more (badly needed) help at DB and another tackle/center.
If we grab a QB (Murray or Cousins or a 1st RP), that's pretty much the offseason.

I'm still open minded to either, and curious if Trubisky/Rudolph look much worse than Pickett. Because if they look the same or better, that already tells me all I need to know about KP.

This team would be 12-5 or 13-4 with Kirk Cousins this season. Well, a non-broken Kirk Cousins. It would be rather illusory but the position matters THAT much. Adding a QB doesn't preclude you from adding other pieces, at least not at a mid-level, and it's not like they are trading for Sauce Gardiner if they don't get a QB.

 

[Peat]

Well that's an entirely different discussion and while it's worth having philosophically, it's not actually going to happen. So in the real world the way this franchise operates the question is whether you go into 2024 with all your eggs in the Pickett basket. You can't do that unless you're prepared to punt, and that's just not something they will do.

Since putting all the eggs in the Pickett basket and trying to get the best eggs possible in there is the closest to what I want them to do in terms of rebuilding, I am a-okay with that. This team is very short of consistent talent and I want them to prioritise that over taking long shots at QB, with the idea this approach either leads to a strong enough platform to support a project QB taken late in the 1st *or* it leads to picking high.

And if we're talking about what's going to happen and what we can realistically expect, I can't imagine the Steelers pulling the plug on Pickett after two years and opening themselves up for the questions about their work there. And I very much doubt they want to do it after two and a half either. Which means the biggest thing they're looking for in backup QB is the ability to help Pickett and therefore avoid this happening, which they seemingly think they have in Trubisky, so I'm dubious about them doing anything there. I think it'd take a big old disaster to change their minds.

 

[ChaosAgent]

This team would be 12-5 or 13-4 with Kirk Cousins this season. Well, a non-broken Kirk Cousins. It would be rather illusory but the position matters THAT much. Adding a QB doesn't preclude you from adding other pieces, at least not at a mid-level, and it's not like they are trading for Sauce Gardiner if they don't get a QB.

I agree that Cousins would be the best QB this team has seen in 6 years. And at least we'd keep our picks.

But this team needs 2 (good) new OL. 2 (good) DBs. Cam Heyward is teetering on the precipice of being done. We have to replace the ILB room, again, because the current guys are all injured. Maybe a good QB and OC can paper this stuff over, but I can see the argument that we need to build the rest of the team up.
Also if TJ Watt starts missing games and Chris Boswell starts missing kicks we are done either way.

 

[MrBrightside]

Since putting all the eggs in the Pickett basket and trying to get the best eggs possible in there is the closest to what I want them to do in terms of rebuilding, I am a-okay with that. This team is very short of consistent talent and I want them to prioritise that over taking long shots at QB, with the idea this approach either leads to a strong enough platform to support a project QB taken late in the 1st *or* it leads to picking high.

And if we're talking about what's going to happen and what we can realistically expect, I can't imagine the Steelers pulling the plug on Pickett after two years and opening themselves up for the questions about their work there. And I very much doubt they want to do it after two and a half either. Which means the biggest thing they're looking for in backup QB is the ability to help Pickett and therefore avoid this happening, which they seemingly think they have in Trubisky, so I'm dubious about them doing anything there. I think it'd take a big old disaster to change their minds.

Oh, I agree with you completely that this is what they will do. Our disagreement is purely as to whether it is what they should do. That evaluation turns almost entirely on whether one thinks Pickett is a real #1 NFL QB. You do, I don't, but we certainly don't need to rehash that argument. But you're right - there's an 80%+ chance that Pickett not only starts the opener in 2024, he does it without real competition.

 

[T1K]

I have a feeling they’re giving Pickett a mulligan this year. They’ll get 6 or so wins in 2024 and be set up to take a QB.

 

[Josey Wales]

Scott Kacsmar

@ScottKacsmar

If you think Mike Tomlin, who is coaching his 15th season since SB 43, will win another Super Bowl in Pittsburgh...Longest gap between coach's 1st and 2nd SB win:Landry - 6 seasonsGibbs - 5 seasonsSeifert - 5 seasonsCoughlin - 4 seasonsParcells - 4 seasonsFlores - 3 seasonsWalsh - 3 seasonsReid - 3 seasonsBelichick - 2 seasonsLombardi - back-to-backShula - back-to-backNoll - back-to-backJohnson - back-to-backShanahan - back-to-backGibbs' 3rd win came 4 years after his 2ndWalsh's 3rd win came 4 years after his 2ndNoll's 3rd win came 3 years later, No. 4 was another back-to-backBelichick's gaps: 2, 1, 10, 2, 2That means Belichick going a decade between SB wins (2004-14) is the only time a coach has gone more than 6 seasons between SB wins.This can also apply to Harbaugh (11th year since SB win) in Baltimore. Sometimes it's fine to admit things have ran their course and it is time to part ways a la Andy Reid and the Eagles after 2012.

 

[Peat]

Oh, I agree with you completely that this is what they will do. Our disagreement is purely as to whether it is what they should do. That evaluation turns almost entirely on whether one thinks Pickett is a real #1 NFL QB. You do, I don't, but we certainly don't need to rehash that argument. But you're right - there's an 80%+ chance that Pickett not only starts the opener in 2024, he does it without real competition.

I really don't know why you think I think that. Not only have I not said that, I have refuted it the last time someone said something similar.

My position is I don't know what Pickett is, but I strongly believe most things around him in Steelertown are absolute dogshit, and I don't want the Steelers to invest in the QB position until they've fixed that. If that means sending Pickett out again, so be it.

I have a feeling they’re giving Pickett a mulligan this year. They’ll get 6 or so wins in 2024 and be set up to take a QB.

Here is the one problem. Pickett's ability to avoid turnovers does limit the likelihood of him being a tank commander. I can't quite bring myself to take the logical position of saying "lets just get all guys like Trubisky who'll make big throws but lose games and dump Pickett", not least because I don't bother wanting things that won't happen, but in terms of setting things up for a high pick shot at QB, Pickett is potentially a problem.

 

[Pens1566]

I wonder what Fields would cost after they draft Williams?

 

[Josey Wales]

The KP truthers are a treat. I want no part of Fields at all and he's a far better QB than Pickett.

Yeah because he has really showed how good he is

 

[ChaosAgent]

I wonder what Fields would cost after they draft Williams?

Maybe a 3rd. Garoppolo got a 2nd but Lance got a 4th.

 

[MrBrightside]

Yeah because he has really showed how good he is

What part of me saying that I want no part of Fields at all confused you.

 

[T1K]

Here is the one problem. Pickett's ability to avoid turnovers does limit the likelihood of him being a tank commander. I can't quite bring myself to take the logical position of saying "lets just get all guys like Trubisky who'll make big throws but lose games and dump Pickett", not least because I don't bother wanting things that won't happen, but in terms of setting things up for a high pick shot at QB, Pickett is potentially a problem.

Not that I’m rooting for injuries, but Pickett has been somewhat injury prone so far in his career… That sure would be a shame

 

[T1K]

I wonder what Fields would cost after they draft Williams?

Probably a similar package the Jets got for Darnold (2nd, 4th, 6th). Fields has too many tough decisions coming up contract wise.

 

[MrBrightside]

For Steelers and Kenny Pickett, 2023 is already a failure: DeFabo

Frankly, it’s hard to find any metric that suggests Pickett has improved from Year 1 to Year 2. His record as a starter is identical. His completion percentage is marginally worse. After averaging 184 passing yards and 0.54 touchdowns per game last year, he’s at 172 and 0.5 this year.

His passer rating improved only slightly. But his accuracy has regressed, as his percentage of off-target passes has increased by about one-third. Beyond that, Pickett continues to show issues recognizing blitzes and handling pressure in the pocket — two areas that were considered weaknesses coming out of college.

Along the way, Pickett sustained three injuries — his knee in Week 4, ribs in Week 8 and ankle on Sunday — that forced him from game action. It’s not his fault he’s pressured and sacked at such a high rate, but he’s now left five separate games due to injury (including twice because of concussions in 2022), and it’s time to start wondering about his long-term durability long term in the rough-and-tumble AFC North.

Probably the best thing you can say about Pickett is he doesn’t turn the ball over. After throwing nine picks last year, he’s cut that down to four this year. But that’s more a symptom of the problem than anything to celebrate, as the Steelers have turned Pickett into a risk-averse game manager.

I’m not putting this all on Pickett. And I’m also not ready to write him off when he’s been put into a less-than-ideal situation, with dysfunction all around him on offense. This is an offense that couldn’t even line up correctly or snap the football on Sunday, much less score touchdowns in the red zone.

Still, this conservative approach didn’t do anyone any favors. From the time they drafted Pickett, the Steelers have handled him with kid gloves. They started him third on the depth chart last year before throwing him into the fire at halftime of Week 4. This season, it was his job from Day 1, but there was still a reluctance to open up the playbook and allow the quarterback to attack downfield.

The close, improbable wins over mediocre competition have been nothing but fool’s gold, convincing the Steelers that if they stay with the same conservative philosophy, they can limp into the playoffs. And if I had to bet on it, I’m sure they will find a way to preserve Tomlin’s non-losing-season streak and maybe even make it to the postseason.

 

[JTG]

As far as I'm concerned, this team is on game 2. How you view Kenny hinges on how you viewed the offense under Canada. If you expected Kenny (or any QB) to produce within those confines, then you're probably over him. If you didn't, then you still want to see how he looks moving forward.

As I've said, Kenny is here for 2 more years. They will not give up on him before his rookie deal is up. Only way he is gone is if Tomlin gets shit canned and the new HC wants their own QB.

 

[OnMyOwn]

I agree. I just feel they at least need to bring in a vet to push him, not mason or MT, but someone with a little higher caliber. Make Kenny earn that starting spot again.

Wishful thinking I’m sure.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I'm not expecting him to be traded or released but I do believe they need to find someone much much better. They need to find competition for KP. They need to have someone who will push him throughout the year and through camp and if that person is better, that person should start.

If KP is better through camp then so be it but if KP continues to play as he has early next season then they need to have someone they have confidence in moving onto him,

 

[JTG]

Mitch is supposed to be that guy, to be fair.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Andy was in Philly when they drafted hurt’s while they traded up for Weintz and khan didn’t draft him. If they were willing to dicuss benching him then he isn’t guaranteed anything. The guy will not crack 20 tds in 2 seasons combined

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

For Steelers and Kenny Pickett, 2023 is already a failure: DeFabo

Frankly, it’s hard to find any metric that suggests Pickett has improved from Year 1 to Year 2. His record as a starter is identical. His completion percentage is marginally worse. After averaging 184 passing yards and 0.54 touchdowns per game last year, he’s at 172 and 0.5 this year.

His passer rating improved only slightly. But his accuracy has regressed, as his percentage of off-target passes has increased by about one-third. Beyond that, Pickett continues to show issues recognizing blitzes and handling pressure in the pocket — two areas that were considered weaknesses coming out of college.

Along the way, Pickett sustained three injuries — his knee in Week 4, ribs in Week 8 and ankle on Sunday — that forced him from game action. It’s not his fault he’s pressured and sacked at such a high rate, but he’s now left five separate games due to injury (including twice because of concussions in 2022), and it’s time to start wondering about his long-term durability long term in the rough-and-tumble AFC North.

Probably the best thing you can say about Pickett is he doesn’t turn the ball over. After throwing nine picks last year, he’s cut that down to four this year. But that’s more a symptom of the problem than anything to celebrate, as the Steelers have turned Pickett into a risk-averse game manager.

I’m not putting this all on Pickett. And I’m also not ready to write him off when he’s been put into a less-than-ideal situation, with dysfunction all around him on offense. This is an offense that couldn’t even line up correctly or snap the football on Sunday, much less score touchdowns in the red zone.

Still, this conservative approach didn’t do anyone any favors. From the time they drafted Pickett, the Steelers have handled him with kid gloves. They started him third on the depth chart last year before throwing him into the fire at halftime of Week 4. This season, it was his job from Day 1, but there was still a reluctance to open up the playbook and allow the quarterback to attack downfield.

The close, improbable wins over mediocre competition have been nothing but fool’s gold, convincing the Steelers that if they stay with the same conservative philosophy, they can limp into the playoffs. And if I had to bet on it, I’m sure they will find a way to preserve Tomlin’s non-losing-season streak and maybe even make it to the postseason.

The dumb thing is that KP unnecessarily left the pocket on the play he was injured. Austin is in for a walkin TD on the left flat if KP could perform a damn pre snap read

 

[Empoleon8771]

Maybe a 3rd. Garoppolo got a 2nd but Lance got a 4th.

Yeah my comment about trading for Fields to have both him and Pickett was under the assumption that he'd cost like a 2nd or 3rd. If he costs huge assets, you obviously don't do that.

I'm not a fan of Fields but I can't deny that there is some serious upside with him. I also don't see why they can't keep Pickett but just as a very good veteran backup.

 

[Coastal Kev]

As far as I'm concerned, this team is on game 2. How you view Kenny hinges on how you viewed the offense under Canada. If you expected Kenny (or any QB) to produce within those confines, then you're probably over him. If you didn't, then you still want to see how he looks moving forward.

As I've said, Kenny is here for 2 more years. They will not give up on him before his rookie deal is up. Only way he is gone is if Tomlin gets shit canned and the new HC wants their own QB.

Question regarding game 2; Do you think either current OC would be considered above the line for their position in the NFL community?

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

For Steelers and Kenny Pickett, 2023 is already a failure: DeFabo

Frankly, it’s hard to find any metric that suggests Pickett has improved from Year 1 to Year 2. His record as a starter is identical. His completion percentage is marginally worse. After averaging 184 passing yards and 0.54 touchdowns per game last year, he’s at 172 and 0.5 this year.

His passer rating improved only slightly. But his accuracy has regressed, as his percentage of off-target passes has increased by about one-third. Beyond that, Pickett continues to show issues recognizing blitzes and handling pressure in the pocket — two areas that were considered weaknesses coming out of college.

Along the way, Pickett sustained three injuries — his knee in Week 4, ribs in Week 8 and ankle on Sunday — that forced him from game action. It’s not his fault he’s pressured and sacked at such a high rate, but he’s now left five separate games due to injury (including twice because of concussions in 2022), and it’s time to start wondering about his long-term durability long term in the rough-and-tumble AFC North.

Probably the best thing you can say about Pickett is he doesn’t turn the ball over. After throwing nine picks last year, he’s cut that down to four this year. But that’s more a symptom of the problem than anything to celebrate, as the Steelers have turned Pickett into a risk-averse game manager.

I’m not putting this all on Pickett. And I’m also not ready to write him off when he’s been put into a less-than-ideal situation, with dysfunction all around him on offense. This is an offense that couldn’t even line up correctly or snap the football on Sunday, much less score touchdowns in the red zone.

Still, this conservative approach didn’t do anyone any favors. From the time they drafted Pickett, the Steelers have handled him with kid gloves. They started him third on the depth chart last year before throwing him into the fire at halftime of Week 4. This season, it was his job from Day 1, but there was still a reluctance to open up the playbook and allow the quarterback to attack downfield.

The close, improbable wins over mediocre competition have been nothing but fool’s gold, convincing the Steelers that if they stay with the same conservative philosophy, they can limp into the playoffs. And if I had to bet on it, I’m sure they will find a way to preserve Tomlin’s non-losing-season streak and maybe even make it to the postseason.

Unfortunately necessary ground work:
I have no particular affinity for Kenny Pickett or thee University of Pittsburgh.
One person's "defense" or "carrying water" is another person's "incomplete assessment."
Yes, I believe KP has received poor coaching at the pro level.

With those out of the way -- while some people prefer "rhythm QB" as a descriptor for Pickett, I prefer "moxie" or "confidence." It is my opinion that his NFL coaching has not only taken away what he does well, but has not replaced it with new teaching and skill development.

There's a post on this page about pre-snap reads. It's a weakness of Pickett's. But has the necessary work been done to help him develop this skill? Some will argue that the NFL is not for development, and that Pickett in particular is old for a young QB. Neither of those things precludes a coach from doing teaching and skill development.

So again, his "moxie" has been replaced by caution and he has not been given new skill-sets to balance that out. IMO

 

[Peat]

Mitch is supposed to be that guy, to be fair.

Yup. And tbh, I look at the names that are meant to be more challenging, and don't really see it. Different dogs, same fleas.

Yeah my comment about trading for Fields to have both him and Pickett was under the assumption that he'd cost like a 2nd or 3rd. If he costs huge assets, you obviously don't do that.

I'm not a fan of Fields but I can't deny that there is some serious upside with him. I also don't see why they can't keep Pickett but just as a very good veteran backup.

I would rather have a shot at drafting a guy like Benton again over Fields. I wouldn't trade Benton for Fields straight up.

But then, from limited glimpses, I don't see any upside to Fields at all. I don't think he was taught to read the game properly in college and I don't think he was taught properly at Chicago and at this point, he's damaged goods that can't be put right.