GDT: The Pittsburgher Thread - Here we go!

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You are creating a straw man with the single mom analogy. The single mom is not making at minimum over half a million in salary within 12 months. And again the the lowest paid full time roster spot. My point is, I don’t have to feel bad for the players at all. Not that the CBA is not favorable to the owners. It is. That the billionaire owners do not hold an advantage. They do. That it would not be a huge financial risk pushing a lock out. It would.

My point is, if the paychecks are worth not going against all that. The paychecks are good enough to shrug all that off and keep showing up. Then I do not want to hear pissing and moaning about the CBA from players or fans complaining about the contracts for the players. Because you are just whining and wasting oxygen complaining about something you ether won’t do anything about. Or will not walk away from. So why should I care? I should not. And won’t.

Cmon now, it’s far from a straw man. It’s simply a very relevant point you don’t want to lend credence to and we both know why - so let’s not play coy here and waste each other’s time.

As far as the rest of this debate goes, I find your side highly hypocritical because I’m 100% sure you would never risk your own financial security and that of your family, in a situation you know is impossible to win.

So I find all the sword falling talk to be utter nonsense.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I don’t know if I can agree with the union doing right by it’s members as there is so much corruption going on, but keeping the paychecks going is extremely vital to the players long term security.

The corruption is alleged, the paychecks are concrete.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Nah, you are wrong, sorry. You don’t understand the scope of things when you make these types of comments.

If the players somehow miraculously got all 1700 players to stand their ground on guaranteed contracts and risk their long term security, there would be a lockout like this league has never seen.

The owners would take a temporary public relations hit and lockout for a couple seasons to ensure they don’t make concessions that would have long term effects for their league.

Guaranteed contracts are non-negotiable with the owners. That means they will never budge on the issue and the players can’t do jack shit about it.

The fans would be back, sponsors would be back, but they know when they make concessions like guaranteed contacts, it will cost them billons of dollars over the long term.

It’s a concession they could then never take back.

Just like when the owners said the 17 game schedule is non-negotiable, that’s it. Game over and the players can’t do a thing about it.

They know it. So do the owners.

nope.

its really simple.

losing tv revenue cost the teams way more money than guaranteeing contracts.

and its not even close.

guaranteeing contracts will barely change anything, big picture money wise. It will just make roster construction harder.

Rough numbers in 2021 team have average cap space of 9 million out of 182.5. So teams are using 95% of cap space even without guaranteed money. So the best worse case scenario for the owners is losing 288 million IF fully guaranteeing contract would push that to 100% of space used (which it wont).

Amazon is paying 1 Billion per season just for Thursday night football.

so if push came to shove which is the more prudent business decision?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The corruption is alleged, the paychecks are concrete.

There is overwhelming evidence the corruption is real, but ultimately as I’ve been saying, the paychecks are the leverage the owners will always have.

The CBA only needs a simple majority vote and it’s impossible to get 1700 guys, many who have such a small earning window, to sacrifice that money away.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

There is overwhelming evidence the corruption is real, but ultimately as I’ve been saying, the paychecks are the leverage the owners will always have.

The CBA only needs a simple majority vote and it’s impossible to get 1700 guys, many who have such a small earning window, to sacrifice that money away.

this part is 100 true. The nfl has nfl people in that union that are far to willing to bend over for uncle rodger.

 

[xlm34]

I agree. If Najee can come in and impact the running game, he's going to make everyone look so much better around him. It will be interesting to see the linebacking corps, even though it would be more fun if Highsmith was healthy. I think his season is f***ed, to be honest. Groin injuries take so long to heal and for the player to be back at 100%. Thankfully we have Ingram. I'm really curious to see how Dan Moore performs. What a find t hat would be if we can pull a starting LT in the 4th round that starts from day 1.

I'm shocked they kept Washington and didn't find a deal for him.

Yeah groin injuries tend to linger. And it’s a shame because there was so much hype around Highsmith. It seemed pretty well deserved too.

I get Washington’s frustration but I’m happy they’re keeping him. If one of the top 3 guys get hurt, I’d hate to have to replace one of them with McCloud.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

nope.

its really simple.

losing tv revenue cost the teams way more money than guaranteeing contracts.

and its not even close.

guaranteeing contracts will barely change anything, big picture money wise. It will just make roster construction harder.

Rough numbers in 2021 team have average cap space of 9 million out of 182.5. So teams are using 95% of cap space even without guaranteed money. So the best worse case scenario for the owners is losing 288 million IF fully guaranteeing contract would push that to 100% of space used (which it wont).

Amazon is paying 1 Billion per season just for Thursday night football.

so if push came to shove which is the more prudent business decision?

You are trying to run numbers you don’t understand or even have access to, because they don’t even exist yet.

Can you run the numbers for the next 10 years? 20? 30? 50?

It would be billions and billions that the owners would be giving up once they made this concession, with long term impacts that even they couldn’t fully comprehend.

This is a decades long fight that goes back to before many of us were even born, because the owners will never, ever concede it, no matter what you like to believe.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Cmon now, it’s far from a straw man. It’s simply a very relevant point you don’t want to lend credence to and we both know why - so let’s not play coy here and waste each other’s time.

As far as the rest of this debate goes, I find your side highly hypocritical because I’m 100% sure you would never risk your own financial security and that of your family, in a situation you know is impossible to win.

So I find all the sword falling talk to be utter nonsense.

My family has been on food stamps. And I have put my financial security at risk standing up for something in my place of work. Do I expect everyone to do that no. But if you have the means to fight, which I believe any NFL player that has played at least one full season does. But won’t take up that fight. Keep showing up for work. But also want to poor mouth their situation with the CBA and contracts. I don’t have to care. Do something about it. Or shut up. Because you are wasting oxygen complaining about something you apparently are getting paid well enough to keep showing up but still want to gain sympathy. No I don’t have to provide an inch of sympathy to someone with that means, that will not do anything to change their situation. It’s their choice to stay in that situation, they are not being forced, so I in turn do not have to care about their complaints.

So ether do something to get change how ever that maybe. Or shut up and go earn the paycheck you signed the contract for. You don’t get to have both.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

You are trying to run numbers you don’t understand or even have access to, because they don’t even exist yet.

Can you run the numbers for the next 10 years? 20? 30? 50?

It would be billions and billions that the owners would be giving up once they made this concession, with long term impacts that even they couldn’t fully comprehend.

This is a decades long fight that goes back to before many of us were even born, because the owners will never, ever concede it, no matter what you like to believe.

This is what i do for a living (not the nfl) but financial business analysis.

They are using 95% of available cap space. If you think they are willing to risk Billions to not use 97% you nuts.

not to mention all they have to do to not spend it, is not spend it.

all guarenteeing contracts does is lock in which olayer you spending the money on, not how much is being spent.

you are vastly overestimating the financial impact for the owners.

For a specific player it could be huge. But overall wont materially change the total spend.

 

[ChaosAgent]

To @WheresRamziAbid 's point, from a monetary perspective teams are spending up to the cap anyway so it's the same pool of money regardless of whether contracts are guaranteed.

I guess the wider picture may be that the NFL product will suffer because then injured players will take up a much higher portion of the cap. The effect of guaranteed contracts may be for the injured to take money from the (relatively) uninjured. From an individual player's perspective, I don't know if guaranteed contracts are really their highest priority. I can see why it may be; income certainty is a real factor in microeconomics. But again the issues afflicting TJ Watt's contract negotiation aren't applicable to 98% of the league.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

My family has been on food stamps. And I have put my financial security at risk standing up for something in my place of work. Do I expect everyone to do that no. But if you have the means to fight, which I believe any NFL player that has played at least one full season does. But won’t take up that fight. Keep showing up for work. But also want to poor mouth their situation with the CBA and contracts. I don’t have to care. Do something about it. Or shut up. Because you are wasting oxygen complaining about something you apparently are getting paid well enough to keep showing up but still want to gain sympathy. No I don’t have to provide an inch of sympathy to someone with that means, that will not do anything to change their situation. It’s their choice to stay in that situation, they are not being forced, so I in turn do not have to care about their complaints.

So ether do something to get change how ever that maybe. Or shut up and go earn the paycheck you signed the contract for. You don’t get to have both.

So I’ll assume you didn’t enjoy being on food stamps and worrying about the financial security of your family?

Yet you expect that a majority of these players who grew up poor and know that feeling all too well, to risk everything they busted their asses for?

Knowing it’s not a winnable fight.

Once again, some semblance of reality here please.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

So I’ll assume you didn’t enjoy being on food stamps and worrying about the financial security of your family?

Yet you expect that a majority of these players who grew up poor and know that feeling all too well, to risk everything they busted their asses for?

Knowing it’s not a winnable fight.

Once again, some semblance of reality here please.

No it wasn’t, but at that time my family needed it. And no it was not enjoyable putting my financial stability in question. But it was the right thing to do.

No. That’s their choice. And if they choose to keep playing. And not change or at a minimum try to change something they complain about. Then I do not have to listen or care about their complaints. They fall on deaf ears.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

This is what i do for a living (not the nfl) but financial business analysis.

They are using 95% of available cap space. If you think they are willing to risk Billions to not use 97% you nuts.

not to mention all they have to do to not spend it, is not spend it.

all guarenteeing contracts does is lock in which olayer you spending the money on, not how much is being spent.

you are vastly overestimating the financial impact for the owners.

For a specific player it could be huge. But overall wont materially change the total spend.

You keep trying to run numbers you don’t know - so how can you pretend to evaluate the impact guaranteed contracts would have on an owner?

You are not taking into account how this new dead money would effect rosters and the product on the field - now your front office can no longer manipulate the cap without restructuring and bonus payments.

There is no way to account for the loss of revenue for an owner now being handcuffed into an inferior product due to a concession he foolishly agreed to.

It would be billions and billons of dollars for these owners over an indefinite time period as I keep trying to explain.

And there is no way the dead money would be assumed outside of the cap, because hell would freeze over before the majority of owners would be stupid enough to agree to that.

There is a reason this fight has been going on longer than most of us have been alive, and it will never be conceded by the owners as I keep saying.

And the owners aren’t pissing away as much money as you want to believe should a work stoppage happen.

The sneaky work stop provisions the owners build into their network deals help them to keep getting paid and building their war chests.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

No it wasn’t, but at that time my family needed it. And no it was not enjoyable putting my financial stability in question. But it was the right thing to do.

No. That’s their choice. And if they choose to keep playing. And not change or at a minimum try to change something they complain about. Then I do not have to listen or care about their complaints. They fall on deaf ears.

You think players over the decades have never tried to fight this?

It’s much easier to org 32 unscrupulous billionaires with unlimited power, vs 1700 guys with the bottom half of the union having everything to lose.

As I maintained throughout this discussion, I’m 100% sure you wouldn’t hold out for 2-3 years and lose your most prime earning years in a window that is 3-5 years at best.

So the tough guy and sword falling talk is silly as hell.

And once again they don’t care about winning some random fan a championship, they care about securing the long term security of their families - and like most of us, make decisions that may not make them happy, but are the best ones for their families.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So ether do something to get change how ever that maybe. Or shut up and go earn the paycheck you signed the contract for. You don’t get to have both.

That's exactly what the guys who hold out are doing, right? They are betting on themselves that they have built up enough leverage to do something and get a change. If the union won't do it, they'll do it for themselves. It's a shame that the union/majority of players can't/won't do that (regardless of if they are right not to), but good for the ones who can. Like you said, these guys signed contracts. And as far as I can tell, they seem to have the contractual right to just not play football.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

You think players over the decades have never tried to fight this?

It’s much easier to org 32 unscrupulous billionaires with unlimited power, vs 1700 guys with the bottom half of the union having everything to lose.

As I maintained throughout this discussion, I’m 100% sure you wouldn’t hold out for 2-3 years and lose your most prime earning years in a window that is 3-5 years at best.

So the tough guy and sword falling talk is silly as hell.

And once again they don’t care about winning some random fan a championship, they care about securing the long term security of their families - and like most of us, make decisions that may not make them happy, but are the best ones for their families.

I’ve never been put in a hold out situation, so I don’t know how I would react in that position. But I did put my career on the line for others during critical parts in my career. And even though I kept my career, and those I stood up for were done right by, I felt the ripples of those actions for quite a few years after.

And to the bold portion. If that really is the case then I don’t have to care about their financials. Point of watching a sport is to watch your team win. If they do not truly care about winning. I don’t have to care about their financials at all in any way shape or form.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

That's exactly what the guys who hold out are doing, right? They are betting on themselves that they have built up enough leverage to do something and get a change. If the union won't do it, they'll do it for themselves. It's a shame that the union/majority of players can't/won't do that (regardless of if they are right not to), but good for the ones who can. Like you said, these guys signed contracts. And as far as I can tell, they seem to have the contractual right to just not play football.

I only ever go against the hold out players when they want to poor mouth and victimize themselves that they are underpaid, when they have luxury life styles but want to poor mouth. When they hold out and are just flat out, I’m completely over performing my contract and I feel I deserve more money. As long as they don’t act like a douche and entitled. I shrug it off and basically take the do what you gotta do mindset. I just give no value to a person playing victim when even the lowest paid person could completely walk away after 12 months with more money than the vast majority of us will ever hold at one time. And could abjectly go do anything with their lives at that point better than they started. But expect us as fans to side with them because they have been done a disservice or victimized. When it’s like that I laughably would tell any of them to f*** right the hell off. There is nuance to a player holding out, it’s a case by case thing not over arching.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I only ever go against the hold out players when they want to poor mouth and victimize themselves that they are underpaid, when they have luxury life styles but want to poor mouth. When they hold out and are just flat out, I’m completely over performing my contract and I feel I deserve more money. As long as they don’t act like a douche and entitled. I shrug it off and basically take the do what you gotta do mindset. I just give no value to a person playing victim when even the lowest paid person could completely walk away after 12 months with more money than the vast majority of us will ever hold at one time. And could abjectly go do anything with their lives at that point better than they started. But expect us as fans to side with them because they have been done a disservice or victimized. When it’s like that I laughably would tell any of them to f*** right the hell off. There is nuance to a player holding out, it’s a case by case thing not over arching.

I honestly don't pay attention to pretty much anything athletes say, so I never really notice that part of it. But I'm sure public pressure is one of the things they need to leverage, so I'll still say go for it. And just because they are well paid doesn't mean they aren't underpaid.

That said, no I don't actually feel bad for most of them. Though I will also say that I wouldn't trade my life for the life of an awful lot of NFL players. f*** those health problems.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I’ve never been put in a hold out situation, so I don’t know how I would react in that position. But I did put my career on the line for others during critical parts in my career. And even though I kept my career, and those I stood up for were done right by, I felt the ripples of those actions for quite a few years after.

And to the bold portion. If that really is the case then I don’t have to care about their financials. Point of watching a sport is to watch your team win. If they do not truly care about winning. I don’t have to care about their financials at all in any way shape or form.

I never said you have to care.

You also don’t have to watch these guys entertain you either if you don’t agree with their way of fighting back agt such a corrupt and slanted system.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

I never said you have to care.

You also don’t have to watch these guys entertain you either if you don’t agree with their way of fighting back agt such a corrupt and slanted system.

Then the players should stop playing victim. They don’t get to earn what they earn then play victim, and apparently not care about what the fans want. And then have fans fully back them. Especially if they complain and keep on showing up. Just shut up and play.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Then the players should stop playing victim. They don’t get to earn what they earn then play victim, and apparently not care about what the fans want. And then have fans fully back them. Especially if they complain and keep on showing up. Just shut up and play.

no, they can't do that and have you fully back them. Plenty of fans obviously do. Just because you don't think they are underpaid doesn't make it so.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

no, they can't do that and have you full back them. Plenty of fans obviously do.

Goddamnit… You are right. I’ve been blind this whole time! I SEE THE LIGHT! And it’s coming from JuJu’s Tiktok account! Joy to us all! Joy to us all!



Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Goddamnit… You are right. I’ve been blind this whole time! I SEE THE LIGHT! And it’s coming from JuJu’s Tiktok account! Joy to us all! Joy to us all!



Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.

I'm not sure what just happened

 

[Harvey Birdman]

I'm not sure what just happened

I was trying to be a smart ass because you said I have too. As in I saw the light you are right, I have too.

I’m often a smartass randomly. Brain is just wired that way.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Then the players should stop playing victim. They don’t get to earn what they earn then play victim, and apparently not care about what the fans want. And then have fans fully back them. Especially if they complain and keep on showing up. Just shut up and play.

Why would they shut up about it when it’s true that they are being f***ed?

Judge rules NFL violated agreement with union in TV deals

“Oops we didn’t know that didn’t benefit the players to!”

Then they went and did it again with the latest deal and skirted around the litigation.

This isn’t about millionaires and billionaires to players, it’s about your bosses f***ing you over, knowing they can get away with it, corrupting the shit out of your union and you having only one legit way to get your full worth.