OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Congrats to KC, but Kelce was the real winner winning Swift

[MrBrightside]

And Pickens' two most targeted games of the season came without Johnson in the line-up. His 106 regular season targets don't make the top 30.

Muth's targets fell last season.

Or to put it another way -

Johnson had 6.7 targets a game last season.

Pickens had 6.2, Freiermuth had 3.9.

You can easily give Pickens and Muth both another target - which would incidentally take them to the combined targets given to London and Pitts, more or less - and then it's replacing 4.7 targets a game which is less high end WR2 territory. That guy doesn't need to be leaned on so hard.



I don't know how you got "sure thing" from

"That's two okay shots at getting a player who contributes as much as I'd project him to do so in Smith's offence. Most likely neither is quite as good"

But that is a truly remarkable reading of my words by my book.

It is very clearly not a sure thing, even for a team as good at drafting WRs as the Steelers. But, as part of a package of measures, it forms part of what seems an acceptable gamble to me for the team's future given that DJ probably doesn't have a future here.

And in terms of whether a team would do it, as you can see from the quoted edit, it's not sure. But maybe they would if they need instant help. Teams do overpay for proven WRs from time to time, even guys about to get paid.

Replace “sure thing” with “likely” or whatever choice of words you prefer. It doesn’t change the point. And really, this is the NFL. This isn’t MLB. Teams don’t generally dump players the year before they become UFA’s unless they are in total rebuilds or you don’t have cap space.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Robinson is 100% washed up and should be cut. Johnson is a WR2 that has the ego and pay of a WR1. There's no need to go ridiculous with the comments in here.

DJ should be traded because you could likely get a 2nd for him while being able to sign a player for the $10 million you save that could give you serviceable results. Trading DJ for a 2nd, using that 2nd on a WR and also signing a Juju caliber guy (at least what he was in 2022) for about $10 million a year seems like a really good plan with the WR group.

 

[MrBrightside]

You’re so deep into your KP obsession that you don’t even know wtf you are typing about him anymore I guess.

It’s ok there ‘lil Sparky, world isn’t gonna end because KP has wronged you and not developed like you hoped.

And ya solid point there… Steelers could never get a 2nd for an avg WR that is a locker room issue.

Did you bang out this nonsense wearing your Claypool Pro Bowl jersey?

It has to be pretty confounding for you that a completely horrible coach like Tomlin is a fierce advocate for Pickett and sees something the rest of the NFL doesn’t. How much Advil does the headache this causes you require?

 

[WickedWrister]

I think you have to just let Diontae play out his contract and try and draft a replacement this year or next. He hasn't necessarily lived up to his contract, but it was a short term deal and the AAV was much more palatable than some of the other WR's to get extensions that year.

If this really is going to be the evaluation year on KP (or whoever), then I want to see what they can do with a full compliment of weapons. Kenny has been pretty outspoken about not looking guys way if the defense is doubling them pre-snap.

 

[MrBrightside]

I think you have to just let Diontae play out his contract and try and draft a replacement this year or next. He hasn't necessarily lived up to his contract, but it was a short term deal and the AAV was much more palatable than some of the other WR's to get extensions that year.

If this really is going to be the evaluation year on KP (or whoever), then I want to see what they can do with a full compliment of weapons. Kenny has been pretty outspoken about not looking guys way if the defense is doubling them pre-snap.

Thank you. This is absolutely correct.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think you have to just let Diontae play out his contract and try and draft a replacement this year or next. He hasn't necessarily lived up to his contract, but it was a short term deal and the AAV was much more palatable than some of the other WR's to get extensions that year.

If this really is going to be the evaluation year on KP (or whoever), then I want to see what they can do with a full compliment of weapons. Kenny has been pretty outspoken about not looking guys way if the defense is doubling them pre-snap.

I think the issue here is that you can save $10 million by trading him, which gives you an additional $10 million in free agency to sign another WR. You could both get a draft pick to replace him while also being able to sign another WR with the money saved. I think that's a no brainer if you can do that.

I think you could get a 2nd for him pretty easily, but even if you can only get a 3rd, spending $10 million on someone like Tyler Boyd and using that extra pick on a WR yields a better long-term WR group than just sitting on DJ for a year and then letting him walk.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It has to be pretty confounding for you that a completely horrible coach like Tomlin is a fierce advocate for Pickett and sees something the rest of the NFL doesn’t. How much Advil does the headache this causes you require?

I’m not obsessed with KP like you Sparky.

He busts, life goes on.

I always give a rookie QB three years of patience and don’t get mentally unbalanced like you when a guy struggles and doesn’t meet expectations.

You are missing out on some good KP bashing on Twitter right now I bet, better get on it before the vein in your forehead implodes.

Almost been a few hrs since your last fix.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I think the issue here is that you can save $10 million by trading him, which gives you an additional $10 million in free agency to sign another WR. You could both get a draft pick to replace him while also being able to sign another WR with the money saved. I think that's a no brainer if you can do that.

I think you could get a 2nd for him pretty easily, but even if you can only get a 3rd, spending $10 million on someone like Tyler Boyd and using that extra pick on a WR yields a better long-term WR group than just sitting on DJ for a year and then letting him walk.

Thank you. This is absolutely correct.

 

[MrBrightside]

I’m not obsessed with KP like you Sparky.

He busts, life goes on.

I always give a rookie QB three years of patience and don’t get mentally unbalanced like you when a guy struggles and doesn’t meet expectations.

You are missing out on some good KP bashing on Twitter right now I bet, better get on it before the vein in your forehead implodes.

Almost been a few hrs since your last fix.

Coming from the guy who spends every waking second of his day bashing Mike Tomlin that’s pure gold. We know you’re not obsessed with Pickett. Everyone knows your true obsession is hating Mike Tomlin

I think the issue here is that you can save $10 million by trading him, which gives you an additional $10 million in free agency to sign another WR. You could both get a draft pick to replace him while also being able to sign another WR with the money saved. I think that's a no brainer if you can do that.

I think you could get a 2nd for him pretty easily, but even if you can only get a 3rd, spending $10 million on someone like Tyler Boyd and using that extra pick on a WR yields a better long-term WR group than just sitting on DJ for a year and then letting him walk.

I honestly don’t think there’s much reason to believe that Tyler Boyd is a legitimate #2 outside WR at this point in his career. He’s been primarily in the slot and giving 8 figure contracts to WR who are 30 seldom goes well.

 

[WickedWrister]

I think the issue here is that you can save $10 million by trading him, which gives you an additional $10 million in free agency to sign another WR. You could both get a draft pick to replace him while also being able to sign another WR with the money saved. I think that's a no brainer if you can do that.

I think you could get a 2nd for him pretty easily, but even if you can only get a 3rd, spending $10 million on someone like Tyler Boyd and using that extra pick on a WR yields a better long-term WR group than just sitting on DJ for a year and then letting him walk.

Yeah from a pure asset management POV, this probably makes sense. And Tyler Boyd is someone I think I mentioned in this thread when the "hold in" rumor from Madden started. You know they love the 412 connection. I just don't see this team detracting from the WR group in such an important year, not just for Kenny but with a new OC installing his offense. Not unless the situation deteriorates and he's holding in while missing OTA's and camp.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Robinson is 100% washed up and should be cut. Johnson is a WR2 that has the ego and pay of a WR1. There's no need to go ridiculous with the comments in here.

DJ should be traded because you could likely get a 2nd for him while being able to sign a player for the $10 million you save that could give you serviceable results. Trading DJ for a 2nd, using that 2nd on a WR and also signing a Juju caliber guy (at least what he was in 2022) for about $10 million a year seems like a really good plan with the WR group.

He isn’t paid like a number 1. Number 1st get 22 million or more aav. 10 million buys you a Tj boyd wr 3 type

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Coming from the guy who spends every waking second of his day bashing Mike Tomlin that’s pure gold. We know you’re not obsessed with Pickett. Everyone knows your true obsession is hating Mike Tomlin

You just blew your wad telling me I’ve been right about Tomlin all along.

You aren’t very good at this are you?

I uh am more than ok being the guy questioning a coach who has failed repeatedly at his job the last 13 years vs being the one who is irrationally angry about some young QB that’s struggled for two years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I honestly don’t think there’s much reason to believe that Tyler Boyd is a legitimate #2 outside WR at this point in his career. He’s been primarily in the slot and giving 8 figure contracts to WR who are 30 seldom goes well.

I don't think Boyd is a legitimate #2 WR, but $10 million tends to not get you a legitimate #2 receiver regardless.

I don't think it has to be specifically Boyd, especially with his age, but I think this team desperately needs a legitimate slot guy that can add more routes in the middle of the field. They need a physical slot guy super badly, they haven't had an effective one since Juju was in his prime years ago.

In a perfect world, you'd get a 2nd rounder around #45 overall for DJ and use that to pick someone like Pearsall from Florida to replace him. Then you use the rest of that $10 million you saved to sign the best slot receiver you can get in free agency.

Unrelated, but Pearsall was the one who made this ludicrous catch last year:

He isn’t paid like a number 1. Number 1st get 22 million or more aav. 10 million buys you a Tj boyd wr 3 type

There are only 8 WRs in the NFL that make more than $22 million a year.

Johnson is the 15th highest paid WR in football. That's firmly WR1 money.

 

[xlm34]

I don't think Boyd is a legitimate #2 WR, but $10 million tends to not get you a legitimate #2 receiver regardless.

I don't think it has to be specifically Boyd, especially with his age, but I think this team desperately needs a legitimate slot guy that can add more routes in the middle of the field. They need a physical slot guy super badly, they haven't had an effective one since Juju was in his prime years ago.

In a perfect world, you'd get a 2nd rounder around #45 overall for DJ and use that to pick someone like Pearsall from Florida to replace him. Then you use the rest of that $10 million you saved to sign the best slot receiver you can get in free agency.

Unrelated, but Pearsall was the one who made this ludicrous catch last year:





There are only 8 WRs in the NFL that make more than $22 million a year.

Johnson is the 15th highest paid WR in football. That's firmly WR1 money.

Signing a slot receiver for 10 million when Arthur Smith doesn’t use a slot receiver just doesn’t seem like a good use of the cap savings.

IF they were to trade Johnson, using whatever pick on a replacement is fine but I’d prefer to see them use some of the savings to go after a bigger name at CB or OL or something.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'd sooner trade Pickens for a first than Johnson for a second at this point. Or trade Harris.

At times I absolutely hate Johnson, he chokes on some catches and has a drops problem.
But the analytics confirm the eye test: He. Gets. Open. At an astounding rate and even when the offense does a crappy job of designing receivers to be open. Watch some of his moves at the line, his hip swivel and stuff. He is a ridiculously gifted athlete in confined space.

This is such an important year for Tomlin, Arthur Smith and Kenny/Mason/whoever the QB is. Taking away a guy who is open almost every play is a tough pill to swallow for me.

 

[pistolpete11]

I don't know how well Boyd fits into Smith's offense as a receiver, but just about anybody fits into Smith's offense as a blocker better than DJ.

Trade DJ, use the cap to sign someone like Boyd and the pick to draft an outside guy seems like a pretty good plan to me. Pickens, rookie WR, Boyd, Muth, Harris, and Warren seem like a pretty good stable of weapons to me, especially given this team's knack of finding pretty good WR in the 2nd round.

I also think/hope they get Washington more involved in the passing game. I imagine he'll see the field a lot more in Smith's offense, but he's a really unique weapon to have. I hope they utilize him.

 

[pistolpete11]

I'd sooner trade Pickens for a first than Johnson for a second at this point. Or trade Harris.

At times I absolutely hate Johnson, he chokes on some catches and has a drops problem.
But the analytics confirm the eye test: He. Gets. Open. At an astounding rate and even when the offense does a crappy job of designing receivers to be open. Watch some of his moves at the line, his hip swivel and stuff. He is a ridiculously gifted athlete in confined space.

This is such an important year for Tomlin, Arthur Smith and Kenny/Mason/whoever the QB is. Taking away a guy who is open almost every play is a tough pill to swallow for me.

I think DJ is a good WR, but he's starting to get up there in age, is more expensive, and I question how well he'll fit in Smith's offense given how small and soft he is. That's why I'm leaning towards trading him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd sooner trade Pickens for a first than Johnson for a second at this point. Or trade Harris.

At times I absolutely hate Johnson, he chokes on some catches and has a drops problem.
But the analytics confirm the eye test: He. Gets. Open. At an astounding rate and even when the offense does a crappy job of designing receivers to be open. Watch some of his moves at the line, his hip swivel and stuff. He is a ridiculously gifted athlete in confined space.

This is such an important year for Tomlin, Arthur Smith and Kenny/Mason/whoever the QB is. Taking away a guy who is open almost every play is a tough pill to swallow for me.

DJ is like 4 years older and is a free agent after next year. There's no way I'd trade Pickens before DJ.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I don't think Boyd is a legitimate #2 WR, but $10 million tends to not get you a legitimate #2 receiver regardless.

I don't think it has to be specifically Boyd, especially with his age, but I think this team desperately needs a legitimate slot guy that can add more routes in the middle of the field. They need a physical slot guy super badly, they haven't had an effective one since Juju was in his prime years ago.

In a perfect world, you'd get a 2nd rounder around #45 overall for DJ and use that to pick someone like Pearsall from Florida to replace him. Then you use the rest of that $10 million you saved to sign the best slot receiver you can get in free agency.

Unrelated, but Pearsall was the one who made this ludicrous catch last year:





There are only 8 WRs in the NFL that make more than $22 million a year.

Johnson is the 15th highest paid WR in football. That's firmly WR1 money.

Except when guys like Jefferson Chase Pittman Aiuk Lamb get paid which will drop him to in the 20s. Cooper Brown(Detroit) Godwin Waddel and smith that class of 25
They have their slot guy in muth

 

[Peat]

Replace “sure thing” with “likely” or whatever choice of words you prefer. It doesn’t change the point. And really, this is the NFL. This isn’t MLB. Teams don’t generally dump players the year before they become UFA’s unless they are in total rebuilds or you don’t have cap space.

Maybe they should. Trading Claypool wasn't super usual but it's worked out amazing. They wouldn't be the first team to trade a WR that wants more money than they want to pay on the next contract either. Adams, Hill, Brown, Kirk, Diggs, other Brown... it happens.

As for the rest of it.

It's likely to find someone decent who might be good. It's not likely to find Diontae Johnson right off the bat. That's the appeal for other teams.

The appeal for us... I just dunno the team are going to use him right. He doesn't fit the Arthur Smith model. He'd not a big quick guy who can high point and block. Smith has used smaller receivers before but it's not his favoured. I can't see them resigning him. There's also the possibility he gets bolshy about playing on an expiring contract.

And while I wouldn't go so far to call him a cancer, I think this team does need a culture reset and trading him is one of the obvious levers. It's been rough sledding for the WRs with everything going on, but maybe having a new high profile guy there who doesn't have a recent history of pouting with the team would help usher in a new era.

 

[ChaosAgent]

DJ is like 4 years older and is a free agent after next year. There's no way I'd trade Pickens before DJ.

Pickens is a supremely talented player but he is going to get PAID and 2023 was not the last of his distractions/attitude issues. Not by a long shot.

Also, as mentioned I think his value is significantly higher. I think if you put him and #20 together you could get pretty close to drafting Daniels or Maye. Or get Powers-Johnson and one of the OT, giving us a great line.

 

[Peat]

Pickens is a supremely talented player but he is going to get PAID and 2023 was not the last of his distractions/attitude issues. Not by a long shot.

Also, as mentioned I think his value is significantly higher. I think if you put him and #20 together you could get pretty close to drafting Daniels or Maye. Or get Powers-Johnson and one of the OT, giving us a great line.

And no receiving talent.

Much like the trade DJ idea, the first thing you need to do is turn around and spend the return on WRs. Or something else nifty.

I also think the amount of drama he's going to provide providing the team isn't a mess is overstated, and if he's going to get paid then I wouldn't want to trade him before he has the season that proves that.

 

[Ulf5]

And no receiving talent.

Much like the trade DJ idea, the first thing you need to do is turn around and spend the return on WRs. Or something else nifty.

I also think the amount of drama he's going to provide providing the team isn't a mess is overstated, and if he's going to get paid then I wouldn't want to trade him before he has the season that proves that.

Getting a 2nd for DJ would be amazing.
T/CB round 1, trade up in round 2 with the two 2nds....
Spend in UFA for best CB or ILB.

 

[MrBrightside]

Maybe they should. Trading Claypool wasn't super usual but it's worked out amazing. They wouldn't be the first team to trade a WR that wants more money than they want to pay on the next contract either. Adams, Hill, Brown, Kirk, Diggs, other Brown... it happens.

As for the rest of it.

It's likely to find someone decent who might be good. It's not likely to find Diontae Johnson right off the bat. That's the appeal for other teams.

The appeal for us... I just dunno the team are going to use him right. He doesn't fit the Arthur Smith model. He'd not a big quick guy who can high point and block. Smith has used smaller receivers before but it's not his favoured. I can't see them resigning him. There's also the possibility he gets bolshy about playing on an expiring contract.

And while I wouldn't go so far to call him a cancer, I think this team does need a culture reset and trading him is one of the obvious levers. It's been rough sledding for the WRs with everything going on, but maybe having a new high profile guy there who doesn't have a recent history of pouting with the team would help usher in a new era.

All of those guys were on rebuilding teams, not playoff teams. I sincerely cannot recall a playoff caliber NFL team dumping one of their key starters because he was heading into his UFA season just to sustain roster continuity. That's a Pirates move, not something that occurs in the NFL. The only remote comp I can think of is KC and Tyreek, but that was more of a salary cap consideration than it was to "get younger." The Claypoole situation was nothing like this - he was their 4th WR on a team that was like 2-6, not a team coming off a playoff berth who theoretically plans to compete for it in 2024 and who needs to support their QB in a make or break year. Johnson is what he is, but trading him just doesn't make sense given where this team is and how many other needs they already have.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I also think the amount of drama he's going to provide providing the team isn't a mess is overstated, and if he's going to get paid then I wouldn't want to trade him before he has the season that proves that.

We'll see. He has already expressed his opinion through instagram that Rudolph should be the quarterback next year. He is unlikely to get Rudolph and more likely to get Pickett.

I hope he keeps his brain on the rails, but I've seen a guy who gives moody teenager vibes.