OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Congrats to KC, but Kelce was the real winner winning Swift

[Buddy Bizarre]

Canada offense isn’t unique theres tons of teams who use the same concepts and successful.

There's a big difference between "concepts" and integrating those into action. Like a GULF of difference.
My daughter has all kinds of great ideas. Want to know why she can't get her business off the ground? Because she struggles with implementation/nuts and bolts.

I mean if you want to get pedantic, almost all NFL offenses run the same concept (run with 7 in the box/throw to open spaces). How they go about it is what separates the men from the boys. And Canada was an 8 year old pulling plays from Madden

 

[Peat]

I guess for me, Smith seems like his offense is a bit of a one (maybe two?) trick pony: zone runs and play action. And if it’s working that’s great. But what happens when a team shuts down his run game? Does he have a good enough drop back passing game to overcome it? Based on his time as a play caller, that answer is no. In the playoffs with the Titans, once a team shut down Henry that was that.

You bring up the niners and that’s a valid point that you can be run heavy and be a contender. Shanahan’s kind of gone away from the under center play action passing game though and still has an effective and efficient passing offense.

Good article on how the Niners are changing - Kyle Shanahan Is No Longer Running the Shanahan Offense

I wonder if we'll see Heyward given more shots as a traditional FB. I know Smith likes to use one more and the kid can get block in motion. He's also get the route running and hands to do work in this sort of stuff, and you've got to think all the run heavy OCs in the league are breaking down Shanhan's plays looking for something to steal

I’m fine with him taking shots, as I was all in on the KP selection.

I’m not fine with watching him botch a young QB because he’s too incompetent to develop the position.

I don't think you need me to tell you there's going to be bad news on the latter.

At which point I'm in favour of ripping the band-aid off quick.

 

[ChaosAgent]

There's a big difference between "concepts" and integrating those into action. Like a GULF of difference.
My daughter has all kinds of great ideas. Want to know why she can't get her business off the ground? Because she struggles with implementation/nuts and bolts.

I mean if you want to get pedantic, almost all NFL offenses run the same concept (run with 7 in the box/throw to open spaces). How they go about it is what separates the men from the boys. And Canada was an 8 year old pulling plays from Madden

Roast your own offspring to make a point to Big Daddy?

Priorities, I guess.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Roast your own offspring to make a point to Big Daddy?

Priorities, I guess.

I'm not roasting her, it's honesty. We've had direct conversations about it and she knows this is where she struggles.

Do you disagree with the concept of the message?

 

[JTG]

I agree this "what if" scenario upgrades the talent on the roster, but I can't agree it changes the seven year playoff win drought.

Tomlin has shown way much too incompetence, this wretched streak started when he had Roth and Pouncey and he still couldn't win a playoff game.

I severely doubt a Linderbaum MR/MT combo moves the needle with Tomlin around.

But I guess JT is saying it would have them in a better position, so maybe in terms of talent and not pissing away a #1 on Tomlin's incompetence.

I think if this team was able to consistently run the ball, they would have had a really good shot at making the playoffs. It would have kept the defense off the field which was a huge problem, and it would open up the pass. Center was the right call in that draft, I think.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I think if this team was able to consistently run the ball, they would have had a really good shot at making the playoffs. It would have kept the defense off the field which was a huge problem, and it would open up the pass. Center was the right call in that draft, I think.

Wrong, McDuffie was the pick. Cole played fine his first season and is much easier to replace. I would much rather have an All-Pro CB than Center.

And before someone says, wow that is some hindsight 20/20 you've got going on there Bob, I stated before the draft and at the time of the draft and directly after the draft that I would have taken McDuffie.

 

[WickedWrister]

Wrong, McDuffie was the pick. Cole played fine his first season and is much easier to replace. I would much rather have an All-Pro CB than Center.

And before someone says, wow that is some hindsight 20/20 you've got going on there Bob, I stated before the draft and at the time of the draft and directly after the draft that I would have taken McDuffie.

Yeah McDuffie might've been the play. You're right that the surplus value of getting an elite corner in the draft >>> center. CB vs Guard is probably about the same though.

Rising WR contracts makes those rookie contracts gold too. Still crazy that we might've gotten the best WR in that class despite him being the 11th one taken.

 

[pistolpete11]

I guess for me, Smith seems like his offense is a bit of a one (maybe two?) trick pony: zone runs and play action. And if it’s working that’s great. But what happens when a team shuts down his run game? Does he have a good enough drop back passing game to overcome it? Based on his time as a play caller, that answer is no. In the playoffs with the Titans, once a team shut down Henry that was that.

I don't know that that's a fair conclusion to come to. There were 2 playoff games where Henry wasn't running wild.

2019 KC - 24 points on the 7th best scoring defense - It's not blowing anyone's hair back, but it's good enough to win in the playoffs. The Chiefs just won the Super Bowl scoring 26, 27, 17, and 25 (in OT). And they have Patrick Mahomes, not Ryan Tannehill. The 49ers scored 24, 34 (against the 23rd ranked scoring defense), and 22 (in OT).

2020 BLT - 13 points on the 2nd best scoring defense - I'll grant it's not good enough to expect to win scoring 13 points, but the Ravens defense was great that year. The next week, the Bills only scored 17 and 7 was a 101 yard INT return. So really the offense only put up 10.

You bring up the niners and that’s a valid point that you can be run heavy and be a contender. Shanahan’s kind of gone away from the under center play action passing game though and still has an effective and efficient passing offense.

Part of what I'm getting at is there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. Chiefs throw the ball a lot and won the Super Bowl. The 49ers don't and nearly won the Super Bowl. There's no sense in trying to copy other teams because different styles can win. And frankly, given the QB situation, if we're copying a team, it should be the 49ers.

I agree that effectiveness and efficiency are the key and I think the Titans were that with Smith at OC. 2019 they had the second fewest attempts, but 7th highest net yards/attempt. 2020 they were 3rd lowest in attempts, but 7th highest NY/A.

Whether it's under center play action or spread or whatever else is really getting into the nitty gritty and I would argue it's mostly dependent on the roster. Having a 240lb guy like Harris (or Henry) lends itself more to be under center IMO. McCaffrey at 200lbs, yeah, maybe you want to spread things out a little more.



And before anyone says "What about Atlanta?" Yes, it can't be completely ignored, but you still need good players, particularly at QB. I don't think old man Ryan, Mariota, Ridder, and Heinicke are good enough to run any offense. It didn't work with Smith's offense, but it probably would have been even worse if they leaned into a pass heavy attack.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm not roasting her, it's honesty. We've had direct conversations about it and she knows this is where she struggles.

Do you disagree with the concept of the message?

No! I agree, just needling ya

I don't know that that's a fair conclusion to come to. There were 2 playoff games where Henry wasn't running wild.

2019 KC - 24 points on the 7th best scoring defense - It's not blowing anyone's hair back, but it's good enough to win in the playoffs. The Chiefs just won the Super Bowl scoring 26, 27, 17, and 25 (in OT). And they have Patrick Mahomes, not Ryan Tannehill. The 49ers scored 24, 34 (against the 23rd ranked scoring defense), and 22 (in OT).

2020 BLT - 13 points on the 2nd best scoring defense - I'll grant it's not good enough to expect to win scoring 13 points, but the Ravens defense was great that year. The next week, the Bills only scored 17 and 7 was a 101 yard INT return. So really the offense only put up 10.



Part of what I'm getting at is there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. Chiefs throw the ball a lot and won the Super Bowl. The 49ers don't and nearly won the Super Bowl. There's no sense in trying to copy other teams because different styles can win. And frankly, given the QB situation, if we're copying a team, it should be the 49ers.

I agree that effectiveness and efficiency are the key and I think the Titans were that with Smith at OC. 2019 they had the second fewest attempts, but 7th highest net yards/attempt. 2020 they were 3rd lowest in attempts, but 7th highest NY/A.

Whether it's under center play action or spread or whatever else is really getting into the nitty gritty and I would argue it's mostly dependent on the roster. Having a 240lb guy like Harris (or Henry) lends itself more to be under center IMO. McCaffrey at 200lbs, yeah, maybe you want to spread things out a little more.



And before anyone says "What about Atlanta?" Yes, it can't be completely ignored, but you still need good players, particularly at QB. I don't think old man Ryan, Mariota, Ridder, and Heinicke are good enough to run any offense. It didn't work with Smith's offense, but it probably would have been even worse if they leaned into a pass heavy attack.

Look at Atlanta's stats last year vs. us. Outside of turnovers they were a much better offense than we were. I am encouraged.

 

[pistolpete11]

Shanahan is held up as the great attacking mind of this generation and Purdy, while not an elite gunslinger QB, is asked to do a lot in terms of reading the defence and can also extend plays. He's not a one-read checkdown guy. They don't pass as much as other teams, but when they do they're very dangerous.

Again, this is very similar to what the Titans were with Smith.

I mean it's a fair point that run-heavy pass-light has seen post-season success. Last two SB losers. But it's not super commonplace and Shanahan seems to be the only guy getting it to work again and again. The Eagles came from nowhere and went back to nowhere pretty quick.

The Eagles were 10-1 at one point this season, too. I wouldn't be so sure they are gone.

Teams that sling the ball around lose all the time, too. Excluding shitty teams that threw a lot because they were behind, the Browns had the 5th most attempts this season and got absolutely steam rolled in the playoffs. The Cowboys had the 8th most attempts, and while they did put up 32 in the playoffs, a lot of that was in garbage time. The Texans has the 12 most attempts and after steam rolling the Browns, got steam rolled themselves only putting up 10 points.

But the good news is if they want it to work, they've got one of the two other OCs to make to make it work recently in the post-season in Smith. And he also did it by having a dangerous passing attack. The question is how much of that was "any fool can have a dangerous passing attack when other teams are trying to stop prime Henry behind an OL with more Pro Bowlers than not" and how much is Smith can genuinely do good stuff in his own right.

The Steelers don't have a Henry, but the Titans pretty much only used Henry. 2020 Henry had over 2,000 yards. The rest of their RB's combined for like 300. 2019, he had 1,500 and the rest had like 250.

Last year, with all the issues on the Steelers offense, Harris had 1,000 and Warren added another 800. So, no they can't say they have Henry, but they have a tandem that can come pretty close.

And you can question how much of the success was due to Henry, but I'd counter and say how much was it limited by Tannehill?

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Steelers using at the snap motion less than just about any other team in the league.

I mean I'd roughly agree that the problem with Canada was more him than his playbook, but lets not pretend his playbook didn't get exposed a bunch too. Getting some sunny days out of it when the OL absolutely beat up the opposition DL shouldn't disguise that.

Steelers haven't used much RPO the last two years either.

Yes the rpo is in part because canada couldn’t teach it and our o line kept blocking down field. KP doesn’t read the de well at all either. Motion only works if your Qb can diagnose the play pre and post snap

 

[Peat]

Again, this is very similar to what the Titans were with Smith.


The Eagles were 10-1 at one point this season, too. I wouldn't be so sure they are gone.

Teams that sling the ball around lose all the time, too. Excluding shitty teams that threw a lot because they were behind, the Browns had the 5th most attempts this season and got absolutely steam rolled in the playoffs. The Cowboys had the 8th most attempts, and while they did put up 32 in the playoffs, a lot of that was in garbage time. The Texans has the 12 most attempts and after steam rolling the Browns, got steam rolled themselves only putting up 10 points.


The Steelers don't have a Henry, but the Titans pretty much only used Henry. 2020 Henry had over 2,000 yards. The rest of their RB's combined for like 300. 2019, he had 1,500 and the rest had like 250.

Last year, with all the issues on the Steelers offense, Harris had 1,000 and Warren added another 800. So, no they can't say they have Henry, but they have a tandem that can come pretty close.

And you can question how much of the success was due to Henry, but I'd counter and say how much was it limited by Tannehill?

Lot of good points.

I'd add that we're potentially overrating the power of pass heavy teams because Mahomes is a freak - and Reid dialed that down this season due to not having the WRs -

And while the Lions and Bills weren't pass light, they were run heavy. The Browns too tbf. Both the Lions and the Browns are hard to assess because they just had a ton of the football. They ran a ton and they passed a ton.

Ultimately I'm down for a run heavy team. I think it's the smart move in today's NFL unless you have one of about four-five QBs.

But I do think at some point you're going to run into the obstacle of either you have to pass because of the game situation, or the other team is daring you to pass it by stacking the box. And that's what determines these teams' ceilings. The Ravens and Jackson are scary af to the average team, but to the teams that have figured out how to force Jackson into passing, they're nothing. The 49ers, different story.

Smith is inconsistently in between. I think the point you've made about the QBs he's had is a very good one, but right now, his success is going to be determined by proving the QB he has is better than everyone thinks. Which makes the question of how much help he can give a QB on days when the run game isn't running rampant a very live one.

If that doesn't work, then his success is determined by which QB the team gets, presumably from an unideal situation... but I guess we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Still, in general, I don't hate the hire of him for SB contending, I'd agree with that. The devil will be in the details of his scheme, not the actual idea of the scheme itself.

Yes the rpo is in part because canada couldn’t teach it and our o line kept blocking down field. KP doesn’t read the de well at all either. Motion only works if your Qb can diagnose the play pre and post snap

How much different is it to read RPO vs Play Action? Because Pickett was very accurate on Play Action. I dunno his accuracy on RPO, but he was throwing it for 8.22 yards per attempt on RPO in 23 which seems like maybe it should have been used more.

But yes, I would agree that the difficulty in teaching the line to do RPO seems to have been a major issue.

 

[pistolpete11]

But I do think at some point you're going to run into the obstacle of either you have to pass because of the game situation, or the other team is daring you to pass it by stacking the box. And that's what determines these teams' ceilings. The Ravens and Jackson are scary af to the average team, but to the teams that have figured out how to force Jackson into passing, they're nothing. The 49ers, different story.

Smith is inconsistently in between. I think the point you've made about the QBs he's had is a very good one, but right now, his success is going to be determined by proving the QB he has is better than everyone thinks. Which makes the question of how much help he can give a QB on days when the run game isn't running rampant a very live one.

I don't disagree, but if Pickett's not better than people think, then you have a QB problem and it doesn't matter what OC you bring in. That's one of the reasons I'm happy with Smith. You know he's at least competent. If Pickett still sucks, then you have your answer on him and I'm not going to hold that against Smith. He didn't choose Pickett. If he's in there banging on the table to get Fields or Wilson or whoever, then it's a different story.

 

[WickedWrister]

 

[Peat]

I don't disagree, but if Pickett's not better than people think, then you have a QB problem and it doesn't matter what OC you bring in. That's one of the reasons I'm happy with Smith. You know he's at least competent. If Pickett still sucks, then you have your answer on him and I'm not going to hold that against Smith. He didn't choose Pickett. If he's in there banging on the table to get Fields or Wilson or whoever, then it's a different story.

Yes and no.

Yes, Smith should be competent enough to find out what's going on barring massive injuries or something else unlikely.

No, he's not the sort of QB elevator that's going to get the absolute max from his dude.

And maybe that's not such a bad thing. Maybe the worst outcome - which is still live with Smith - is that Pickett gives a decent performance and hangs onto his job without moving towards being a QB a contender can work with.

But if we're looking for a new QB in 25 I think that becomes a far bigger deal. Most rookie QBs need a helping hand to hang on in there and and be good enough to play to get the experience. I'll probably not be blaming Smith if Pickett flames out next year but I would be asking questions about what happened with Ridder, his previous go around. It'd be nice if a guy possibly hugely involved in our next swing at a franchise QB had more to go on there.

But that's all getting very hypothetical. And in terms of welcoming his appointment... I'm currently telling myself that most hires and acquisitions in terms of QB go wrong, so just accept the risk and go with the best ratio. I think he could end up a fantastic hire and probably won't be drastic, so good enough for now.

 

[JTG]

Wrong, McDuffie was the pick. Cole played fine his first season and is much easier to replace. I would much rather have an All-Pro CB than Center.

And before someone says, wow that is some hindsight 20/20 you've got going on there Bob, I stated before the draft and at the time of the draft and directly after the draft that I would have taken McDuffie.

I was on the McDuffie or Linderbaum train. I still think a C would have helped as much as a CB with the issues we have had. But you are correct, Cole was here, so McDuffie was probably the correct pick.

 

[pistolpete11]

Yes and no.

Yes, Smith should be competent enough to find out what's going on barring massive injuries or something else unlikely.

No, he's not the sort of QB elevator that's going to get the absolute max from his dude.

And maybe that's not such a bad thing. Maybe the worst outcome - which is still live with Smith - is that Pickett gives a decent performance and hangs onto his job without moving towards being a QB a contender can work with.

But if we're looking for a new QB in 25 I think that becomes a far bigger deal. Most rookie QBs need a helping hand to hang on in there and and be good enough to play to get the experience. I'll probably not be blaming Smith if Pickett flames out next year but I would be asking questions about what happened with Ridder, his previous go around. It'd be nice if a guy possibly hugely involved in our next swing at a franchise QB had more to go on there.

But that's all getting very hypothetical. And in terms of welcoming his appointment... I'm currently telling myself that most hires and acquisitions in terms of QB go wrong, so just accept the risk and go with the best ratio. I think he could end up a fantastic hire and probably won't be drastic, so good enough for now.

I think Ridder probably just sucks. That draft year I didn't want to draft Pickett at all, but when it became clear they were going QB no matter what, I was praying that it was Pickett. That's how little I thought of Ridder and the rest of the QBs from that year.

They were in a similar position as the Steelers that year where they needed to take a shot at drafting a QB in a terrible year to draft QB's. Maybe Smith agreed, maybe it was ownership/GM, who knows? I'm sure he had a big say in who to take, but it's not exactly like they picked the wrong guy. The only QB from that draft having any success is Mr. Irrelevant himself. And at least they had enough sense to wait until the 3rd round to take their shot.

As far as the next QB if Pickett fails, both Tannehill and Ridder were getting around 25-30 attempts per start. I think we've had this discussion before, but that's perfect for a young QB IMO (not that Tannehill was young at the time). If he shows he's capable, give him some more leash. My frustration with Pickett's development is more about the types of throws they were having him make (i.e. nothing but short throws towards the sidelines), not the number of throws he was making.

 

[wheelz87]

I’ll gladly take Townsend

 

[JTG]

Araiza would have been perfect here. He very seriously is a cheat code, and I think he ushers in an era of football where it's cool to be a punter and kids are going to want to do it. You're seeing a little bit of that already. He's going to show how much a punter can change the dynamic of the game. I think this dude is about to change what special teams looks like.

I liken Araiza to Barrasso in 1990 - if a team dumps a puck in, Tommy dumps it back out. It's just so demoralizing. Araiza can accurately drop punts up to 60 yards and if he just gives it the gusto, he can go about 20 yards further than that. Having a guy like that giving his defense a long field all the time...huge.

 

[Josey Wales]

Patrick Peterson: Steelers Were 'Super Stagnant' With Matt Canada As OC

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[MrBrightside]

So the real question I have is whether Kelce is really the winner for winning Taylor Swift. I mean, she's plenty attractive and seems like a legitimately nice person, but it would seem like having your entire life under a microscope would be exhausting as hell, Kelce assuredly did just fine prior to her, and she seems like the kind of girl that tells you she loves you on the second date. I dunno.

 

[JTG]

So the real question I have is whether Kelce is really the winner for winning Taylor Swift. I mean, she's plenty attractive and seems like a legitimately nice person, but it would seem like having your entire life under a microscope would be exhausting as hell, Kelce assuredly did just fine prior to her, and she seems like the kind of girl that tells you she loves you on the second date. I dunno.

I don't find them annoying because in a world of fake, they actually seem like a dude from Cleveland, OH and a girl from the middle of PA who are both respectively at the top of their games finding each other. I think it's cool, and I do think they will be together for quite some time.

My guess is, she is finishing a tour, I believe. Once he retires I legitimately think they disappear somewhere and live their lives out.

 

[Josey Wales]

I don't find them annoying because in a world of fake, they actually seem like a dude from Cleveland, OH and a girl from the middle of PA who are both respectively at the top of their games finding each other. I think it's cool, and I do think they will be together for quite some time.

My guess is, she is finishing a tour, I believe. Once he retires I legitimately think they disappear somewhere and live their lives out.

ummm no

 

[MrBrightside]

I don't find them annoying because in a world of fake, they actually seem like a dude from Cleveland, OH and a girl from the middle of PA who are both respectively at the top of their games finding each other. I think it's cool, and I do think they will be together for quite some time.

My guess is, she is finishing a tour, I believe. Once he retires I legitimately think they disappear somewhere and live their lives out.

To be clear, I have zero issue with them and find the politically-motivated angst over it all to be exhausting. I was just questioning whether it's all worth it to Kelce - dating the biggest celebrity in the world would be kind of cool for about 20 minutes and then I think it would be exhausting.

And no, she's not disappearing anywhere.

 

[Josey Wales]

Six Potential Steelers First-Round Fits Prior To NFL Combine

We’re still over two months away from the 2024 NFL Draft, but the first round is starting to take shape in regard to the prospects that we expect to see go inside the top 32 picks come April. For the Pittsburgh Steelers, their most glaring needs match up with several top prospects at those...

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