OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: 2022 Handball season has arrived!

[Mr Jiggyfly]

While the last 5 years may skew towards Payton, I think any football fan can acknowledge that Payton and Tomlin are in the same tier of coach. I'll also throw in Harbaugh and Reid in there.

Belichik is the best HC, but even he has a losing record without Brady.

They will be perceived as in the same tier, but the last five years Payton had tangible success on the field while Tomlin is just winning press conferences.

There is no logical way to dance around Tomlin being mediocre, which is exactly what the record shows his last five years.

Most importantly, continuing a modern franchise worst six years without a playoff win.

No one can spin that any way but a failure that this org hasn’t seen since they were a league laughingstock before most of us were born.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

They will be perceived as in the same tier, but the last five years Payton had tangible success on the field while Tomlin is just winning press conferences.

There is no logical way to dance around Tomlin being mediocre, which is exactly what the record shows his last five years.

Most importantly, continuing a modern franchise worst six years without a playoff win.

No one can spin that any way but a failure that this org hasn’t seen since they were a league laughingstock before most of us were born.

Mike Tomlin probably should be sending personal thank you notes to Pac Man and Joey Porter. Without either of them his playoff record looks even worse

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Mike Tomlin probably should be sending personal thank you notes to Pac Man and Joey Porter. Without either of them his playoff record looks even worse

Likely but I won’t question those wins.

There’s more than enough hard evidence he’s a mediocre coach now without trying to take any of his playoff wins away.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

To me, it doesn't matter much. Canada is executing Tomlin's "small ball" plan.

How he goes about it, perhaps is a different conversation. I agree that Canada's scheme seems to be a bit basic, but the next OC will be tasked to "control the clock, let the defense win the game"

Canada will be the fall guy and again, Tomlin will be sucked off in the media

 

[Empoleon8771]

They will be perceived as in the same tier, but the last five years Payton had tangible success on the field while Tomlin is just winning press conferences.

He has? Payton has 1 superbowl and a 9-8 record in the playoffs. Tomlin has 1 superbowl and an 8-9 record in the playoffs.

Payton and Tomlin have almost identical win-loss records over their careers. Payton's career regular season winning% is .631, compared to .633 for Tomlin.

I get that you don't like Tomlin, and I'm not trying to defend him here, but be reasonable with how Tomlin is regarded. People aren't going to say "the Steelers didn't win a playoff game over an arbitrary 5 year period, while Payton won 3 playoff games over those 5 years" to argue that Payton is better than Tomlin. They'll look at the overall results, which are basically identical with neither winning a super bowl since Obama was in his first term.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the reality with Tomlin is that he's viewed super highly because he's a terrific player's coach and his resume stacks up with almost any other "great" head coach the NFL has seen in the last 20 years outside of Belichick. The Steelers have objectively underachieved in the playoffs in the last 5 years, but coaching resumes aren't based on only 5 years.

I think Belichick's massive success has really warped how fans think of a "good" NFL coach. Payton, Tomlin, Reid, Harbaugh and Cowher all only have 1 superbowl. All of those guys have ~150 regular season wins with a about a .620 winning% and are roughly .500 coaches in the playoffs. All of those guys have about equal levels of success because it's really damn hard to consistently win in the NFL. The Belichick and Brady combination was the best NFL coach of all time with the best NFL QB of all time.

 

[Night Shift]

I think the reality with Tomlin is that he's viewed super highly because he's a terrific player's coach and his resume stacks up with almost any other "great" head coach the NFL has seen in the last 20 years outside of Belichick. The Steelers have objectively underachieved in the playoffs in the last 5 years, but coaching resumes aren't based on only 5 years.

I think Belichick's massive success has really warped how fans think of a "good" NFL coach. Payton, Tomlin, Reid, Harbaugh and Cowher all only have 1 superbowl. All of those guys have ~150 regular season wins with a about a .620 winning% and are roughly .500 coaches in the playoffs. All of those guys have about equal levels of success because it's really damn hard to consistently win in the NFL. The Belichick and Brady combination was the best NFL coach of all time with the best NFL QB of all time.

The difference here is all those coaches except Tomlin put the work in to get a ring. Tomlin came in with a stacked team with good coordinators and a franchise QB. He didn't have to lift a finger in 09.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The difference here is all those coaches except Tomlin had to work to get a ring. Tomlin came in with a stacked team with good coordinators and a franchise QB. He didn't have to lift a finger by 09.

Literally zero people will give a shit about that when it's time for Tomlin to make the HOF.

 

[Night Shift]

Literally zero people will give a shit about that when it's time for Tomlin to make the HOF.

Pretty soon they'll care about 0 playoff wins in a decade or more.

But hey member that 1 year in 09??

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

He has? Payton has 1 superbowl and a 9-8 record in the playoffs. Tomlin has 1 superbowl and an 8-9 record in the playoffs.

Payton and Tomlin have almost identical win-loss records over their careers. Payton's career regular season winning% is .631, compared to .633 for Tomlin.

I get that you don't like Tomlin, and I'm not trying to defend him here, but be reasonable with how Tomlin is regarded. People aren't going to say "the Steelers didn't win a playoff game over an arbitrary 5 year period, while Payton won 3 playoff games over those 5 years" to argue that Payton is better than Tomlin. They'll look at the overall results, which are basically identical with neither winning a super bowl since Obama was in his first term.

And this is (again) what people have to resort to with Tomlin these days.

Look what he did over a decade ago!

The Steelers haven’t won’t a playoff game in five years, that’s why that specific number is being used. Don’t act like it was pulled from thin air.

Payton’s last five years showed tangible results, Tomlin has not. I don’t care about what happened 10-15 yrs ago.

That’s not how the NFL works (unless you coach the Pgh Steelers - then you get to rest on your laurels).

Steelers are now a mediocre team without a playoff win in five, soon to be six year.

I’ll beat that drum ad nauseam.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you seriously think that Tomlin's reputation is going to be hurt because "he only won a super bowl in 2008" (when Payton won his in 2009) or "they didn't win in an arbitrary 5 year period"....well, I'll just let you be wrong.

Want to argue that Tomlin should be fired at this point for a lack of recent success? Whatever, but trying to diminish his resume and act like entirely comparable coaches are somehow better because "Tomlin went 0-3 in the playoffs over a 5 year span" or "Tomlin was carried to a superbowl by Cowher's team" just makes you look insanely biased and makes your opinion worthless.

I don't even like Tomlin but some of the criticism he gets from Steelers fans makes my eyes roll. Payton got "tangible" results in the playoffs because they went 3-4 in 5 years instead of 0-3 like Tomlin? Give me a break.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Ya that silly criticism of a modern day franchise record without a playoff win is so shallow of fans.

Why can’t they just be happy he won a SB 14 years ago!

Should have kept Dan Byslma around to because he won a cup once!

 

[Empoleon8771]

Ya that silly criticism of a modern day franchise record without a playoff win is so shallow of fans.

Why can’t they just be happy he won a SB 14 years ago!

Should have kept Dan Byslma around to because he won a cup once!

You know, you can advocate for Tomlin to be fired due to a lack of success without saying objectively false and warped things to act like Tomlin is this mediocre coach.

If Tomlin is a "mediocre coach", every coach not named Bill Belichick is a mediocre coach.

 

[Night Shift]

If you seriously think that Tomlin's reputation is going to be hurt because "he only won a super bowl in 2008" (when Payton won his in 2009) or "they didn't win in an arbitrary 5 year period"....well, I'll just let you be wrong.

Want to argue that Tomlin should be fired at this point for a lack of recent success? Whatever, but trying to diminish his resume and act like entirely comparable coaches are somehow better because "Tomlin went 0-3 in the playoffs over a 5 year span" or "Tomlin was carried to a superbowl by Cowher's team" just makes you look insanely biased and makes your opinion worthless.

I don't even like Tomlin but some of the criticism he gets from Steelers fans makes my eyes roll.

Some of those "other" coaches you mentioned were hired by organizations that were a mess prior and those coaches re-built those teams to success.

What has Tomlin done for this team exactly?

Excuse me while I roll my eyes at the excuses being made for a mediocre coach.

If Tomlin is a "mediocre coach", every coach not named Bill Belichick is a mediocre coach.

Nope

 

[Empoleon8771]

Some of those "other" coaches you mentioned were hired by organizations that were a mess prior and those coaches re-built those teams to success.

What has Tomlin done for this team exactly?

Excuse me while I roll my eyes at the excuses being made for a mediocre coach.

Literally zero people will give a shit about this when Tomlin's career is over and being evaluated.

What they'll see with Tomlin is a resume that is essentially the exact same as his peers like Harbaugh, Cowher and Payton.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You know, you can advocate for Tomlin to be fired due to a lack of success without saying objectively false and warped things to act like Tomlin is this mediocre coach.

If Tomlin is a "mediocre coach", every coach not named Bill Belichick is a mediocre coach.

A guy without a playoff win in six years isn’t a mediocre coach?

A guy with only one double digit win season in that time as well.

A guy with a losing playoff record.

What is he then?

It’s ok to live in reality and admit he’s now a mediocre coach without being absurd and writing about desperate things that happened over a decade ago.

Guess Chuck Noll should have kept coaching forever because he won four SBs.

 

[Night Shift]

Literally zero people will give a shit about this when Tomlin's career is over and being evaluated.

Here is another observation.

When the Tomlin bots run out of material, they will always repeat themselves in a discussion.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't even know why I got engaged with the Tomlin debates on here, the same debate goes on every single off-day in this thread and it's the same 3 people trying to convince the world that Tomlin is horrible. I literally said twice in here "I don't even like Tomlin" but apparently I'm a "Tomlin bot" for saying that Tomlin has a great resume.

You can believe whatever you want to believe. But the reality is that Tomlin's resume is on par with any coach you can throw out there not named Bill Belichick. However you want to twist that, cherrypick data or whatever else you want to try doesn't override that fact. And that fact is ultimately why Tomlin will get into the HOF literally instantly after he retires.

Want to say the organization needs to move on from him due to a lack of recent success? Sure, I can entertain that argument. But Tomlin will be laughing at you as you scream "MEDIOCRE COACH!!!!!" as he's getting into the HOF, because I promise you he'll be getting in.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Please.

I’ve defended Tomlin when necessary and call him out when necessary.

Trying to make shit up because you don’t like facing reality isn’t my problem.

Someone trying to tell me a coach can’t become mediocre because he once won a SB is the height of absurdity.

 

[Josey Wales]

Empoleon8771"I don't even like Tomlin"

Also Empoleon8771 "But Tomlin will be laughing at you as you scream MEDIOCRE COACH!!!!! as he's getting into the HOF, because I promise you he'll be getting in" Schizophrenia perhaps

 

[Night Shift]

Want to say the organization needs to move on from him due to a lack of recent success? Sure, I can entertain that argument. But Tomlin will be laughing at you as you scream "MEDIOCRE COACH!!!!!" as he's getting into the HOF, because I promise you he'll be getting in.

There is 1 reason He is getting in. He owes gratitude to what organization and/or person?

 

[Empoleon8771]

There is 1 reason He is getting in. He owes gratitude to what organization and/or person?

Maybe he's getting in because he has a HOF resume? You know, effectively the same resume as Bill Cowher who is also in the HOF.

No way it can be that.

 

[Night Shift]

Maybe he's getting in because he has a HOF resume? You know, effectively the same resume as Bill Cowher who is also in the HOF.

No way it can be that.

No it's more that he would have been out of the league a long time ago if on another team. He'd be another Mike Tice, Rich Kotite or Steve Spurrier. One and done.

 

[OnMyOwn]

If the Pens never fired DB and he was still coaching today, he’d have a HOF career as well and we wouldn’t have won a damn thing since 09, either. Longevity and stacked teams help make up for the lack of execution.

The Steelers absolutely should have gotten a SB run out of the killer B’s. Hell, just Ben and Brown together should have.