The Paul Maurice Pitchfork Thread (MOD Warning Post #1)

[vendetta]

Look at this trash when down by one. Team just packs it in

 

[TS Quint]

With the team mostly healthy now, there's really no more excuses coming out of the holidays. I was hoping with some health, the team would actually step up and play better. Fact is, blame lies across coaches and players, especially our top guys. We can't get rid of the top guys for an assortment of reasons, but we can fire the coach.

As a Jet fan let me tell you there will be excuses. The young players need to learn how to be pros, the travel is hard, the game wasn’t at the usual time so the players were off etc etc etc. This all feels familiar.

Zito was looking like a fairly smart GM and then the party ended with a big record scratch and they signed Maurice. From my perspective that was a WTF moment. Maurice is a charismatic likable guy who belongs in a TV studio breaking down goals at intermission. I’m sorry this happened to you guys, things were looking so good.

 

[KW]

As a Jet fan let me tell you there will be excuses. The young players need to learn how to be pros, the travel is hard, the game wasn’t at the usual time so the players were off etc etc etc. This all feels familiar.

Zito was looking like a fairly smart GM and then the party ended with a big record scratch and they signed Maurice. From my perspective that was a WTF moment. Maurice is a charismatic likable guy who belongs in a TV studio breaking down goals at intermission. I’m sorry this happened to you guys, things were looking so good.

I’m sorry it happened to us too!

I’m also sure you’re correct that the excuses will be plentiful… but the thing is, other teams have the same issues. They travel. They have young players. They have injuries. Etc etc.

This is the time for the owners to give a shit. They are the ones who need to take action. The future is still bright but they need a coach who understands how to best use everyone. And they need the GM to stop letting his ego do everything but eat some humble pie and fix the f***ing situation he helped create.

 

[KW]

The 2018-19 Blues were at 15-18-4 (34pts, 0.459) on Dec 31. They went 30-10-5 (65pts, 0.722) the rest of the way. Ended 45-28-9 (99pts, 0.604).

That’s roughly the task. Can they do it? Maybe if they do what the Blues did with the coach. If you don’t remember, read this: How the 2018-19 regular-season was one for the record books

It’s doable, but requires a major step involving a certain head coach.

 

[5 Hole]

The 2018-19 Blues were at 15-18-4 (34pts, 0.459) on Dec 31. They went 30-10-5 (65pts, 0.722) the rest of the way. Ended 45-28-9 (99pts, 0.604).

That’s roughly the task. Can they do it? Maybe if they do what the Blues did with the coach. If you don’t remember, read this: How the 2018-19 regular-season was one for the record books

It’s doable, but requires a major step involving a certain head coach.

Yeah, we're not gonna do it. This season is in the toilet. Just bracing myself for the ridicule again this off season and we try again next year.

 

[sinDer]

The 2018-19 Blues were at 15-18-4 (34pts, 0.459) on Dec 31. They went 30-10-5 (65pts, 0.722) the rest of the way. Ended 45-28-9 (99pts, 0.604).

That’s roughly the task. Can they do it? Maybe if they do what the Blues did with the coach. If you don’t remember, read this: How the 2018-19 regular-season was one for the record books

It’s doable, but requires a major step involving a certain head coach.

That come back the blues did in 2018-2019 was almost historical.

We already had an historicaly good season ourslef last year. We're not getting another historical season with this kind of come back. It's just statisticaly almost impossible.

Not going to happen.

 

[KW]

Yeah, we're not gonna do it. This season is in the toilet. Just bracing myself for the ridicule again this off season and we try again next year.

That come back the blues did in 2018-2019 was almost historical.

We already had an historicaly good season ourslef last year. We're not getting another historical season with this kind of come back. It's just statisticaly almost impossible.

Not going to happen.

Well, not gonna happen with Maurice, that’s point number one.

If Zito doesn’t fire Mo after the current trip, then he’s accepted not making playoffs and becomes 100% complicit in the failure. That’s point number two.

 

[FinlandPanther]

Have a feeling tonight it’s gonna be a 6-2 loss.

 

[Dr Beinfest]

There’s lots of graphics and math in this thread and I don’t need anything to tell me they’re playing with garbage systems, no heart and getting what I consider to be unacceptable goaltending and defense.

As someone whose job it is to make lots of graphics and math, I agree. But that’s the age old problem of analytics. Analysts (or end users) demand that numbers can, must, and will tell a story they want it to tell.

Most of these graphs make you ask a series of questions, including but not limited to:
- are they unlucky?
- what has changed since last year?

A lot of people who get their hands on advanced analytics simply ASSUME the numbers are destined to correct to norms, when in reality every year there are deviators and outright outliers. No, that doesn’t mean they’re unlucky. There is no. Such. Thing. As. Luck. Especially not in an 82 game season. You can call it bad luck over 10 games that led to depression and a change in culture? Call it what you want, there’s an underlying cause, be it aging players, system changes, bad attitudes, whatever. It is not just misfortune. That is a copout answer.

But anyways, this is all moot when you just watch a game. We don’t have to be deep data divers. Like you said, it’s sort of obvious they’re unmotivated and playing a dumb system.

 

[Mogo]

Bah.. He’s just getting the team ready for playoffs. Chill

 

[Boothinator]

The 2018-19 Blues were at 15-18-4 (34pts, 0.459) on Dec 31. They went 30-10-5 (65pts, 0.722) the rest of the way. Ended 45-28-9 (99pts, 0.604).

That’s roughly the task. Can they do it? Maybe if they do what the Blues did with the coach. If you don’t remember, read this: How the 2018-19 regular-season was one for the record books

It’s doable, but requires a major step involving a certain head coach.

Only if they fire Maurice

 

[zeroG]

carrying over this comment from last GDT...

Fully committed to what though? Dump and chase boring hockey void of any skill? If that’s the game plan, they’re executing perfectly.

i agree the team has been boring. and they've sucked.

part of the problem could be that maurice tried to reign in the forwards in transition. playing responsibly means being a little more conservative and not flying the zone in anticipation of puck recovery so that makes sense.

couple that with a depleted back end that isn't as good/experienced at moving the puck and you have a somewhat stilted offensive game (for 2022/23 anyway).

when we lost our quick transition game, we lost the ability to reliably back oppenent's D off the blue line. and if you're trying to become a more responsible team, the last thing you want is players going 1v1 at the offensive blue line to maintain possession entering the zone.

so... of course, we see much more chip and chase.

none of the above is due to "bad coaching" in my opinion. it's just a function of personnel and a desire to adjust team style.

and remember, even good teams have to dump and chase sometimes.

 

[FinlandPanther]

carrying over this comment from last GDT...



i agree the team has been boring. and they've sucked.

part of the problem could be that maurice tried to reign in the forwards in transition. playing responsibly means being a little more conservative and not flying the zone in anticipation of puck recovery so that makes sense.

couple that with a depleted back end that isn't as good/experienced at moving the puck and you have a somewhat stilted offensive game (for 2022/23 anyway).

when we lost our quick transition game, we lost the ability to reliably back oppenent's D off the blue line. and if you're trying to become a more responsible team, the last thing you want is players going 1v1 at the offensive blue line to maintain possession entering the zone.

so... of course, we see much more chip and chase.

none of the above is due to "bad coaching" in my opinion. it's just a function of personnel and a desire to adjust team style.

and remember, even good teams have to dump and chase sometimes.

That’s the key word. That’s all we do now.

 

[letsgrowcactus]

A thought exercise: let's say you're Zito for the moment and fire Maurice. Who do you hire as replacement?
Internally I really don't see any good options.
As much as it sucks, unless someone intriguing is unexpectedly fired mid-season, it might actually be the better option to wait until the offseason to ditch Maurice. However, barring a massive improvement by the team, he really shouldn't be there next year, and I hope Zito is already actively looking for a replacement (probably too much to hope, but a girl can dream).

 

[Dr Beinfest]

You hire Brunette

 

[KW]

carrying over this comment from last GDT...



i agree the team has been boring. and they've sucked.

part of the problem could be that maurice tried to reign in the forwards in transition. playing responsibly means being a little more conservative and not flying the zone in anticipation of puck recovery so that makes sense.

couple that with a depleted back end that isn't as good/experienced at moving the puck and you have a somewhat stilted offensive game (for 2022/23 anyway).

when we lost our quick transition game, we lost the ability to reliably back oppenent's D off the blue line. and if you're trying to become a more responsible team, the last thing you want is players going 1v1 at the offensive blue line to maintain possession entering the zone.

so... of course, we see much more chip and chase.

none of the above is due to "bad coaching" in my opinion. it's just a function of personnel and a desire to adjust team style.

and remember, even good teams have to dump and chase sometimes.

This is exactly what I’ve been bitching about. But I disagree that it isn’t on coaching, I think it’s exactly on Mo. That’s how he wants them to play.

However. With nobody flying out of the zone we get three problems: 1) the oppo D won’t fly out of the zone either, so they can try hanging at the blue line another few seconds and keep the puck in, 2) we don’t get as many (if almost any) 2-on-1’s and 3-on-2’s, and 3) we do tons of dump and chase which then draws our offense to try to get the puck along the boards deep in the zone… but if the oppo D can do their job at all, they’ll get the puck to their offense and now THEY get the odd man rushes. This is undeniable if you watch how our game develops.

We’re slow out of our zone and we’re behind coming back to our zone. This is on Mo. I hate the way we play. Our transitions are always a second or two on the wrong side of the other team. The only thing that saves us is our skill actually. But the point is, when people say this game is as much about what you do when you don’t have the puck as when you do, we fail that anticipatory action. Q was way better at that.

 

[vendetta]

This is exactly what I’ve been bitching about. But I disagree that it isn’t on coaching, I think it’s exactly on Mo. That’s how he wants them to play.

However. With nobody flying out of the zone we get three problems: 1) the oppo D won’t fly out of the zone either, so they can try hanging at the blue line another few seconds and keep the puck in, 2) we don’t get as many (if almost any) 2-on-1’s and 3-on-2’s, and 3) we do tons of dump and chase which then draws our offense to try to get the puck along the boards deep in the zone… but if the oppo D can do their job at all, they’ll get the puck to their offense and now THEY get the odd man rushes. This is undeniable if you watch how our game develops.

We’re slow out of our zone and we’re behind coming back to our zone. This is on Mo. I hate the way we play. Our transitions are always a second or two on the wrong side of the other team. The only thing that saves us is our skill actually. But the point is, when people say this game is as much about what you do when you don’t have the puck as when you do, we fail that anticipatory action. Q was way better at that.

They don’t use the middle of ice well at all in our zone or neutral zone. They break out on the wall leading to more puck battles and little speed

 

[vendetta]

They don’t use the middle of ice well at all in our zone or neutral zone. They break out on the wall leading to more puck battles and little speed

Last year they broke out with chips to the middle to a breaking forward or supporting far side winger leading to more soeed

 

[zeroG]

This is exactly what I’ve been bitching about. But I disagree that it isn’t on coaching, I think it’s exactly on Mo. That’s how he wants them to play.

However. With nobody flying out of the zone we get three problems: 1) the oppo D won’t fly out of the zone either, so they can try hanging at the blue line another few seconds and keep the puck in, 2) we don’t get as many (if almost any) 2-on-1’s and 3-on-2’s, and 3) we do tons of dump and chase which then draws our offense to try to get the puck along the boards deep in the zone… but if the oppo D can do their job at all, they’ll get the puck to their offense and now THEY get the odd man rushes. This is undeniable if you watch how our game develops.

We’re slow out of our zone and we’re behind coming back to our zone. This is on Mo. I hate the way we play. Our transitions are always a second or two on the wrong side of the other team. The only thing that saves us is our skill actually. But the point is, when people say this game is as much about what you do when you don’t have the puck as when you do, we fail that anticipatory action. Q was way better at that.

i don't understand how fans can say "he wants them to play like this". no coach would want the hockey we've been watching! it's losing hockey!

the evidence you're pointing at is circumstantial and, imo, misleading.

some players have better anticipation than others but generally speaking, there's a forecheck and you execute it (or not). i think it's safe to say that maurice is not telling his forwards "hey, let's get 3 guys on the puck behind the net, i don't care about counter attacks!".

i also don't think he wants us to play a plodding, station-to-station offense. i'm sure he was hoping that any tweaks he made would have minimal impact on our strength - rush offense. and, as we've covered, there actually are other, very simple explanations for the fall-off there.

 

[KW]

i don't understand how fans can say "he wants them to play like this". no coach would want the hockey we've been watching! it's losing hockey!

the evidence you're pointing at is circumstantial and, imo, misleading.

some players have better anticipation than others but generally speaking, there's a forecheck and you execute it (or not). i think it's safe to say that maurice is not telling his forwards "hey, let's get 3 guys on the puck behind the net, i don't care about counter attacks!".

i also don't think he wants us to play a plodding, station-to-station offense. i'm sure he was hoping that any tweaks he made would have minimal impact on our strength - rush offense. and, as we've covered, there actually are other, very simple explanations for the fall-off there.

I’m reporting what I’m observing and indicting the coach. HOW his communication happens I don’t know, but something he instructs and directs is completely wrong. I know this because last year they could perform much better without the same amount and frequency of problems of the type I brought up.

Point is: coach’s fault more than simply that “players suck”.

 

[vendetta]

i don't understand how fans can say "he wants them to play like this". no coach would want the hockey we've been watching! it's losing hockey!

the evidence you're pointing at is circumstantial and, imo, misleading.

some players have better anticipation than others but generally speaking, there's a forecheck and you execute it (or not). i think it's safe to say that maurice is not telling his forwards "hey, let's get 3 guys on the puck behind the net, i don't care about counter attacks!".

i also don't think he wants us to play a plodding, station-to-station offense. i'm sure he was hoping that any tweaks he made would have minimal impact on our strength - rush offense. and, as we've covered, there actually are other, very simple explanations for the fall-off there.

I pointed out the main difference above. And also in the attack zone they’re more emphasis on getting the puck behind the net and working it to the d for point shots.

 

[zeroG]

I’m reporting what I’m observing and indicting the coach. HOW his communication happens I don’t know, but something he instructs and directs is completely wrong. I know this because last year they could perform much better without the same amount and frequency of problems of the type I brought up.

Point is: coach’s fault more than simply that “players suck”.

you're welcome to your opinion, of course.

i don't believe the players suck. i think it's more complicated. part psychology, part personnel, part growing pains. what you're observing is not the whole story.

last year is irrelevant. this year's roster is completely different. may as well be a different team. the heart of its identity is gone. those that are left are trying to adjust to different systems and teammates while trying forge a new identity.

 

[zeroG]

Last year they broke out with chips to the middle to a breaking forward or supporting far side winger leading to more soeed

what you're describing is the first breakout most kids learn. it's a reflex. if the play is there, players will make it. they broke out with a play to the middle several times last night once they had their mojo. the fact it hasn't happened more (if statistically borne out) could be explained by other means, e.g. the center isn't working hard enough away from the puck to get into position or the Dman telegraphed the play and forecheck jumped us, etc.

i find it funny that fans think a coach who's been in the league for 25 years would tell his team "just throw it up the wall every time". even beer league players will recognize that and start cheating.

 

[KW]

I find it funny that fans think a coach who's been in the league for 25 years would tell his team "just throw it up the wall every time". even beer league players will recognize that and start cheating.

I would say “fan” (singular) but I guess there could be more here… I’m not saying what you’re blaming “fans” about above.

I can sense that you don’t agree with *my* assessment either, so I guess we’ll just disagree. We’ve both watched and played hockey for a long while so we have different ways of looking at it… this honestly looks like a coaching failure to me. I was for Maurice initially but it isn’t working out.

 

[vendetta]

what you're describing is the first breakout most kids learn. it's a reflex. if the play is there, players will make it. they broke out with a play to the middle several times last night once they had their mojo. the fact it hasn't happened more (if statistically borne out) could be explained by other means, e.g. the center isn't working hard enough away from the puck to get into position or the Dman telegraphed the play and forecheck jumped us, etc.

i find it funny that fans think a coach who's been in the league for 25 years would tell his team "just throw it up the wall every time". even beer league players will recognize that and start cheating.

No they purposely do it and u can tell because that’s where the player support is. They keep chipping it up the boards and that’s where they support. It’s 100% the mo and basically was worked in all training camp and emphasized