The "Panic about Matt Duchene" thread

[NHL33*]

Sometimes fans aren't really rational at all..

Tell me about it. The ones who categorically pretend blindness to arguments as to why Duchene may not develop to his potential can be a bit much. I don't know how the whole saga will end, but I wish some people could be more open-minded but alas; the ones who are blinded by their fandom sometimes cannot see the bigger picture, though we'll have to find out whether or not it is applicable here.

 

[avsfan09]

Tell me about it. The ones who categorically pretend blindness to arguments as to why Duchene may not develop to his potential can be a bit much. I don't know how the whole saga will end, but I wish some people could be more open-minded but alas; the ones who are blinded by their fandom sometimes cannot see the bigger picture, though we'll have to find out whether or not it is applicable here.

It's not like Duchene is in his third NHL season and he hasn't shown anything. He showed incredible promise in his first two seasons. He's having an off year.

I don't know how you can act like it's rational to trade a guy like this because of one bad season. You don't just draft someone like Duchene and give up on him because of one bad season.

 

[NHL33*]

It's not like Duchene is in his third NHL season and he hasn't shown anything. He showed incredible promise in his first two seasons. He's having an off year.

I don't know how you can act like it's rational to trade a guy like this because of one bad season. You don't just draft someone like Duchene and give up on him because of one bad season.

Yeah, if I could make assumptions like "because of one bad season" I'm sure I could win a lot of arguments too. Exactly what premise do you base the desire to trade Duchene simply to be JUST this season? Why is it illogical to think, or simply unthinkable!, that there may have been facets to his game that were poorly received by some and general stagnation may be the impetus for louder assertions? For example, what if someone decided that they didn't believe Duchene was a long-term ideal fit at center for a Stanley Cup winning team -- what if they decided to evaluate this season on his ability to adapt to the wing position, and decided they also did not like that, making him an ideal candidate to address another weakness of the organization (e.g. another top pairing defenseman)?

Are you going to argue that it's too short of a sample size? It's funny because I hear how the side that may be critical about Duchene is always the irrational one, but there are plentiful of criticisms about Duchene's game that get brushed over; he had too many injuries, he was taken away from his natural position (and can't be a center), etc. Maybe he will become the super star that many envision but it is certainly not a guarantee and to me it is laughable to simply brush it off as some mad paranoia, delusion or overreaction.

 

[agentblack]

What do people consider Duchene's offensive output? I see him a 30-40 guy on a good year.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

What do people consider Duchene's offensive output? I see him a 30-40 guy on a good year.

I think he can be a consistent 30-35 goal, 40-50 assist player. He has all the skills, just needs to slow the game down and make simple plays. His confidence is absolutely shattered right now, though.

 

[avsfan09]

Yeah, if I could make assumptions like "because of one bad season" I'm sure I could win a lot of arguments too. Exactly what premise do you base the desire to trade Duchene simply to be JUST this season? Why is it illogical to think, or simply unthinkable!, that there may have been facets to his game that were poorly received by some and general stagnation may be the impetus for louder assertions? For example, what if someone decided that they didn't believe Duchene was a long-term ideal fit at center for a Stanley Cup winning team -- what if they decided to evaluate this season on his ability to adapt to the wing position, and decided they also did not like that, making him an ideal candidate to address another weakness of the organization (e.g. another top pairing defenseman)?

Are you going to argue that it's too short of a sample size? It's funny because I hear how the side that may be critical about Duchene is always the irrational one, but there are plentiful of criticisms about Duchene's game that get brushed over; he had too many injuries, he was taken away from his natural position (and can't be a center), etc. Maybe he will become the super star that many envision but it is certainly not a guarantee and to me it is laughable to simply brush it off as some mad paranoia, delusion or overreaction.

Fans over-react all the time especially miss-informed fans. If Duchene has another bad season next year, than maybe we should look into trading him but right now as it stands he has the most gamebreaking skills on our team and the highest ceiling of anyone on the team. We need someone like that if we are going to compete.

Anyways from what i see from your posts your incredibly pessimistic and pompous. I'm not gonna waste anymore time arguing with you.

 

[NHL33*]

Fans over-react all the time especially miss-informed fans. If Duchene has another bad season next year, than maybe we should look into trading him but right now as it stands he has the most gamebreaking skills on our team and the highest ceiling of anyone on the team. We need someone like that if we are going to compete.

Anyways from what i see from your posts your incredibly pessimistic and pompous. I'm not gonna waste anymore time arguing with you.

You are probably a massive homer but I don't mind spending time with you. Feel free to return with your overbearing optimism and grandeur.

 

[chewey]

You don't just draft someone like Duchene and give up on him because of one bad season.

I hope no one is considering trading Duchene for scraps like JVR (yea, I went there JB), Voracek, or something along those lines. Trading him for someone else with just as equal potential is another question.

I'd still trade anyone of our centers if it meant getting someone in the backend #2 position for EJ. I am a big fan of building from the net out so w/e.

 

[CantTouchThis]

Duchene's not going anywhere. Gms in this league don't jump the boat on their prospects. Well talk about this same time in two years and maybe then we discuss options

 

[avsfan09]

I hope no one is considering trading Duchene for scraps like JVR (yea, I went there JB), Voracek, or something along those lines. Trading him for someone else with just as equal potential is another question.

I'd still trade anyone of our centers if it meant getting someone in the backend #2 position for EJ. I am a big fan of building from the net out so w/e.

I feel like we have enough defenceman in the pipeline and we can pick up a #2 through free agency or a trade not involving duchene. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Duchene for another high potential prospect but the problem with that is finding one that another GM is willing to give up.

 

[avsfan09]

You are probably a massive homer but I don't mind spending time with you. Feel free to return with your overbearing optimism and grandeur.

Having belief in a teams top prospect= Massive Homer.

 

[NHL33*]

Having belief in a teams top prospect= Massive Homer.

And providing legitimate criticism is being pompous and overreactionary. But what would you care? I thought you were done with me? Go stick to your simplistic "the sky is falling!!!" sarcastic rebuttals. You're right, everyone else with a different opinion is wrong, enjoy your belief.

 

[Alex Jones]

I hope no one is considering trading Duchene for scraps like JVR (yea, I went there JB), Voracek, or something along those lines. Trading him for someone else with just as equal potential is another question.

I'd still trade anyone of our centers if it meant getting someone in the backend #2 position for EJ. I am a big fan of building from the net out so w/e.

Get the **** out.

 

[BB1133]

And providing legitimate criticism is being pompous and overreactionary.

There's nothing wrong with discussing/critiquing Duchene's development, but that's a lot different from TRADING him. Anyone with two eyes and half a brain knows that's absurd.

You could present the same argument for almost every top prospect in the league. That doesn't make you insightful.

This topic should be locked and reopened at the same time next year IF Duchene has a disaster season that can't be blamed on injuries, position experimenting, and merry-go-round linemates.

 

[NHL33*]

There's nothing wrong with discussing/critiquing Duchene's development, but that's a lot different from TRADING him. Anyone with two eyes and half a brain knows that's absurd.

If the criticisms are high enough then maybe trading him would net a better return than him not reaching his potential. It's debatable but your stance in of itself that the idea of trading Duchene is absurd "just because" is inherently ridiculous.

You could present the same argument for almost every top prospect in the league. That doesn't make you insightful.

And the reverse doesn't make you a non-homer or brilliant either, yet it's assumed as the maxim by many. There is nothing wrong with holding the position that Duchene should be retained long-term, but calling yourself bright because you are pro-Duchene or anti-Duchene without anything of substance behind either is dumb.

This topic should be locked and reopened at the same time next year IF Duchene has a disaster season that can't be blamed on injuries, position experimenting, and merry-go-round linemates.

Why? This is a forum for debate. If you dislike the thread so much then ignore it. Nobody is forcing you to view it and comment.

 

[chewey]

I feel like we have enough defenceman in the pipeline and we can pick up a #2 through free agency or a trade not involving duchene.

Cause this team gets the oppourtunity to do that how often? Suter is the biggest UFA dman in a while and every team will bid on him. On top this team will have to overpay which could cause salary problems down the road holding a player.

Besides, no one in our pipeline looks like a #2. Even if they do be one it won't be for another few years.

I wouldn't be opposed to trading Duchene for another high potential prospect but the problem with that is finding one that another GM is willing to give up.

Agreed. But if they do get a dance going, it'd be interesting to say the least

 

[BB1133]

If the criticisms are high enough then maybe trading him would net a better return than him not reaching his potential. It's debatable but your stance in of itself that the idea of trading Duchene is absurd "just because" is inherently ridiculous.

Who said anything about "just because"?

How about...

A) Duchene's draft position
B) play over his 1st two seasons

There's a reason why fans aren't GMs.

 

[NHL33*]

A) Duchene's draft position
B) play over his 1st two seasons

A) Irrelevant, overall skill/talent and play should be the main consideration.

B) Has been addressed at various points of the season in multiple threads and there is disagreement on his progression and future outcome. You make it sound like it's unanimous that Duchene should be kept and that your conclusion is a "must" for any sane fan. It's not, but at the same time it has as much relevance as anyone else's and keeping Duchene is certainly the majority position, be it right or wrong.

I simply categorically deny that the thought of trading Duchene in of itself is "irrational" and a sign of "overreaction". The argument that it is a sign of incorrectly projecting Duchene's future, however, I will accept albeit disagree to some degree.

 

[Bonzai12]

Duchene's a professional player and fans pay money (and part of his salary) to watch him play. Any Avalanche player is open to criticism from people who spend money at the Pepsi Center.

 

[BB1133]

A) Irrelevant, overall skill/talent and play should be the main consideration.

B) Has been addressed at various points of the season in multiple threads and there is disagreement on his progression and future outcome. You make it sound like it's unanimous that Duchene should be kept and that your conclusion is a "must" for any sane fan. It's not, but at the same time it has as much relevance as anyone else's and keeping Duchene is certainly the majority position, be it right or wrong.

I simply categorically deny that the thought of trading Duchene in of itself is "irrational" and a sign of "overreaction". The argument that it is a sign of incorrectly projecting Duchene's future, however, I will accept albeit disagree to some degree.

His draft position isn't "irrelevant". Going #3 overall implies that the player has the potential to be a cornerstone piece and key building block. You don't say that out of the gate about guys from lower rounds.

People suggesting he could or should be traded is absolutely irrational and an overreaction of epic proportions. It is anchored in common-knowledge cement. An argument to the contrary doesn't have a leg to stand on.... but it is entertaining to be sure.

 

[NHL33*]

His draft position isn't "irrelevant". Going #3 overall implies that the player has the potential to be a cornerstone piece and key building block. You don't say that out of the gate about guys from lower rounds.

Going 3rd overall means that the player was drafted 3rd overall. Being drafted 199th overall means that the player was drafted 199th overall. There is the same intention with either pick -- to draft a player that will in the long-term prove to be a valuable asset to the organization. Drafting philosophies can change in the early rounds versus mid to late rounds but that doesn't mean that the execution is perfect. There are set expectations with either but they can be overcome or be underwhelming.

Duchene's draft position is absolutely irrelevant to discussion about his talent, he can be evaluated on his physical and mental merits irrespective with the position at which he was drafted. Him being drafted 3rd overall doesn't necessarily in of itself make him any more talented than a player drafted 15th overall. It could mean that the team that had the 3rd overall pick blew its opportunity, however.

People suggesting he could or should be traded is absolutely irrational and an overreaction of epic proportions. It is anchored in common-knowledge cement. An argument to the contrary doesn't have a leg to stand on.... but it is entertaining to be sure.

Fluff and a very stupid position but I'll probably leave it at that.

 

[BB1133]

Going 3rd overall means that the player was drafted 3rd overall. Being drafted 199th overall means that the player was drafted 199th overall. There is the same intention with either pick -- to draft a player that will in the long-term prove to be a valuable asset to the organization.

You're right. There's no difference between the two. Draft position has nothing to do with expectations, value, and cost to the organization. It's no wonder why teams release top picks after a year or two.

Oh wait. That doesn't happen.

oops.

 

[NHL33*]

You're right. There's no difference between the two. Draft position has nothing to do with expectations, value, and cost to the organization. It's no wonder why teams release top picks after a year or two.

Oh wait. That doesn't happen.

oops.

You're all over the map. I'm sure teams value top picks highly. I'm also sure that not all top picks pan out as hoped for by the teams drafting them. They evaluate players on their individual talents and see whether or not they are worth keeping; eventually, if the player does not meet expectations, then they may move him (ala Cam Barker or Erik Johnson). Whether or not the trade is ill advised or works out excellently has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. That has absolutely nothing to do with evaluating Duchene individually as a player though; apparently that went completely over your head.

 

[BB1133]

You're all over the map. I'm sure teams value top picks highly. I'm also sure that not all top picks pan out as hoped for by the teams drafting them. They evaluate players on their individual talents and see whether or not they are worth keeping; eventually, if the player does not meet expectations, then they may move him (ala Cam Barker or Erik Johnson). Whether or not the trade is ill advised or works out excellently has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. That has absolutely nothing to do with evaluating Duchene individually as a player though; apparently that went completely over your head.

Barker and EJ didn't have the same success that Duchene had in their 1st two seasons either.

Draft position has everything to with evaluating Duchene as a player. Going #3 overall translates into high potential/expectations...and he did nothing in his 1st two years to suggest he couldn't meet them. It also dictates the amount of time/$$$/resources that the organization is going to put into him compared to a "199th overall pick".

There are well-documented reasons why his current year hasn't been a good one and it has little to do with his talent/character/potential. He's already proven those variables.

Back to the drawing board?

 

[NHL33*]

Barker and EJ didn't have the same success that Duchene had in their 1st two seasons either.

EJ didn't? That's news to me. Considering he is a defenseman he had an excellent start I think, but then again I am not arguing Duchene should or shouldn't be traded based on his draft position.

Draft position has everything to with evaluating Duchene as a player. Going #3 overall translates into high potential/expectations...and he did nothing in his 1st two years to suggest he couldn't meet them. It also dictates the amount of time/$$$/resources that the organization is going to put into him compared to a "199th overall pick".

All the resources invested in him are meaningless if he cannot take full advantage of them. So, again, no, his draft position does not have anything to do with his talent evaluation.

There are well-documented reasons why his current year hasn't been a good one and it has little to do with his talent/character/potential. He's already proven those variables.

Back to the drawing board?

Back to the drawing board on what? There are well-argued reasons as to why he may not realize his full potential; they aren't nonexistent simply because you are ignorant of them.