The Out of Town Thread CVIII - Free Agency Edition

[hototogisu]

I also don't see the Leaf's plan as just spending money and buying players like the Rangers did and you would have to be short sighted to think it is just that. What the Leafs are doing is rebuilding their entire support organization with the best talent. I sense a lot of sour grapes attitude from our posters here but I'll bet every one of them wish it was happening to the Habs. I think the Leafs are making a strong and valid attempt to improve their organization and we will feel the worse of it in years to come.

I wouldn't say sour grapes (at least not on my part), the Leafs are hiring a lot of good hockey people. No question. But I'm jaded because we've seen this all before. This is not the first time the Leafs have won the Stanley Cup in July. This isn't the first time they've hired good hockey people. This isn't the first time they're rebuilding "the right way". So until it finally translates into on-ice results, I find it hard to put any weight behind it. I'm certainly not going to rush to praise them yet. And I think every Leaf fan should feel the same way. Carefully guarded optimism is fine, but the job isn't done yet. Heck it's barely even started.

 

[Metal God]

Shanahan, Dubas, Hunter, Lamoriello, Babcock...there's a lot of cooks in that kitchen. Definitely some great hockey names in there but how will they work as a cohesive unit? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

With all due respect. This is so wrong and blown out of proportion. I think your comment is just something to add negative criticism to what the Leafs have done.

I also think the fact that the Leafs just restructured the management group recently, and each hiring carried a lot of coverage. The Leafs have the same amount of people in management like any other team in the NHL.

As I'm sure everyone knows. Management is a team effort. They all work together. Bounce ideas off of each other.

Pretty much the same structure on Habs and Leafs management/Cooks in the kitchen.

Habs (taken from Habs website):

1. Marc Bergevin - Executive Vice President and General Manager
2. Rick Dudley - Senior vice president, hockey operations
3. Trevor Timmins - Vice President of player personnel and Director of Amateur Scouting
4. Larry Carrière - Assistant General Manager
5. Scott Mellanby - Assistant General Manager
6. Michel Therrien - Head Coach
7. Martin Lapointe - Director of Player Development
8. Rob Ramage - Player development coach
9. Playstation (sorry. I had to )

Leafs (Taken from the Leafs website):

1. Brendan Shanahan - President & Alternate Governor
2. Lou Lamoriello - General Manager
3. Kyle Dubas - Assistant General Manager
4. Brandon Pridham - Assistant to the General Manager
5. Mark Hunter - Director Player Personnel
6. Reid Mitchell - Director, Hockey and Scouting Operations
7. Mike Babcock - Head Coach
8. Jim Paliafito - Director of Player Evaluation


I'm a realist. I know this isn't going to win the Leafs a cup or make them better overnight. Its definitely a step in the right direction imo.

 

[hototogisu]

With all due respect. This is so wrong and blown out of proportion. I think your comment is just something to add negative criticism to what the Leafs have done.

I also think the fact that the Leafs just restructured the management group recently, and each hiring carried a lot of coverage. The Leafs have the same amount of people in management like any other team in the NHL.

As I'm sure everyone knows. Management is a team effort. They all work together. Bounce ideas off of each other.

Pretty much the same structure on Habs and Leafs management/Cooks in the kitchen.

Habs (taken from Habs website):

1. Marc Bergevin - Executive Vice President and General Manager
2. Rick Dudley - Senior vice president, hockey operations
3. Trevor Timmins - Vice President of player personnel and Director of Amateur Scouting
4. Larry Carrière - Assistant General Manager
5. Scott Mellanby - Assistant General Manager
6. Michel Therrien - Head Coach
7. Martin Lapointe - Director of Player Development
8. Rob Ramage - Player development coach
9. Playstation (sorry. I had to )

Leafs (Taken from the Leafs website):

1. Brendan Shanahan - President & Alternate Governor
2. Lou Lamoriello - General Manager
3. Kyle Dubas - Assistant General Manager
4. Brandon Pridham - Assistant to the General Manager
5. Mark Hunter - Director Player Personnel
6. Reid Mitchell - Director, Hockey and Scouting Operations
7. Mike Babcock - Head Coach
8. Jim Paliafito - Director of Player Evaluation


I'm a realist. I know this isn't going to win the Leafs a cup or make them better overnight. Its definitely a step in the right direction imo.

Nominally yes I agree with you, if you add up the numbers everything looks the same. I think the difference is that the Leafs had (or at least appear to have) many more hands in the "general manager" pot than anybody else in the league, certainly Montreal's. It's quite clear in Montreal it's Bergevin's team. Whose team is it in Toronto? Shanahan's? Lamoriello's? Dubas and Hunter's? Some combination of the 4? Does everyone get equal say? Who overrules who? What about Babcock's input? I doubt he's getting paid $4m to just open the bench door.

Even though it's "Lamoriello's team" by virtue of him being named GM, Leaf fans are the first ones to rush to tell us that it's not really his team, that he's in the background, that he's grooming Dubas, etc. So then it's not really the same as Montreal's, is it? In Montreal, everybody answers to Bergevin. There's much more of a clearly defined hierarchy. I'm not saying that as a pro or a con, I'm just stating it as a fact as I see it.

I didn't say Toronto's approach was doomed to failure. I explicitly said we'll have to wait and see. I think they're clearly going for a "by committee" approach no matter what the staff headcount is compared to other teams around the league. Most Leaf fans have stressed the same thing. But I think when you take the "by committee" approach with a lot of big egos (and don't delude yourself into thinking there aren't any big egos in that group), you're creating a potentially volatile situation.

 

[groovejuice]

Nominally yes I agree with you, if you add up the numbers everything looks the same. I think the difference is that the Leafs had (or at least appear to have) many more hands in the "general manager" pot than anybody else in the league, certainly Montreal's. It's quite clear in Montreal it's Bergevin's team. Whose team is it in Toronto's? Shanahan's? Lamoriello's? Dubas and Hunter's? Some combination of the 4? Does everyone get equal say? Who overrules who? What about Babcock's input? I doubt he's getting paid $4m to just open the bench door.

Even though it's "Lamoriello's team" by virtue of him being named GM, Leaf fans are the first ones to rush to tell us that it's not really his team, that he's in the background, that he's grooming Dubas, etc. So then it's not really the same as Montreal's, is it? In Montreal, everybody answers to Bergevin. There's much more of a clearly defined hierarchy. I'm not saying that as a pro or a con, I'm just stating it as a fact as I see it.

I didn't say Toronto's approach was doomed to failure. I explicitly said we'll have to wait and see. I think they're clearly going for a "by committee" approach no matter what the staff headcount is compared to other teams around the league. Most Leaf fans have stressed the same thing. But I think when you take the "by committee" approach with a lot of big egos (and don't delude yourself into thinking there aren't any big egos in that group), you're creating a potentially volatile situation.

It's a good analysis of the situation, I think. I like that Shanahan is supporting himself with proven managers at every level. Lamoriello is definitely the guy you want to oversee a coach like Babcock.

 

[CanadianODST]

5 year 30.5 for Holtby

 

[Lebowski]

5 year 30.5 for Holtby

That's a pretty solid deal for both sides.

 

[Bergevillain]

5 year 30.5 for Holtby

That Carey Price contract looking better and better every day. Really good deal for Holtby too.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/josh-smith-cries-poor-over-6-9m-in-earnings/

You be brave Josh, my heart goes out to up big guy...

 

[Team_Spirit]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/josh-smith-cries-poor-over-6-9m-in-earnings/

You be brave Josh, my heart goes out to up big guy...

Poor guy, i hope he doesn't have dogs.

-Mike Modano

 

[Dagenais Bar Down*]

“At the end of the day, you know, I do have a family,” Smith said (via the Orlando Sentinel). “So it is going to be a little harder on me this year. But I’m going to push through it, you know.”

----

I don't know anything about Smith's personal life or reputation, but you'd be surprised just how much family you suddenly have once you strike it rich.

 

[c3z4r]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/josh-smith-cries-poor-over-6-9m-in-earnings/

You be brave Josh, my heart goes out to up big guy...

The problem with Josh is that he apparently has a $15M home (plus vacation houses) and a 24 car collection, so when you think about it, he kinda needs that 10+ million contract to not go bankrupt. Wouldn't be surprised if he was broke in less than 3 years after retiring.

 

[Rapala]

The problem with Josh is that he apparently has a $15M home (plus vacation houses) and a 24 car collection, so when you think about it, he kinda needs that 10+ million contract to not go bankrupt. Wouldn't be surprised if he was broke in less than 3 years after retiring.

The vultures are circling already...
But a valuable lesson has been learned.
Two cars are plenty.

 

[Zephyr666]

The problem with Josh is that he apparently has a $15M home (plus vacation houses) and a 24 car collection, so when you think about it, he kinda needs that 10+ million contract to not go bankrupt. Wouldn't be surprised if he was broke in less than 3 years after retiring.

Every person making that kind of money over a short laps of time should have basic knowledge of financial risk considering thta he has to provide for a long time after his career. It's on him.

 

[c3z4r]

Every person making that kind of money over a short laps of time should have basic knowledge of financial risk considering thta he has to provide for a long time after his career. It's on him.

Professional athletes are not the brightest guys.

78 percent of NFL players face bankruptcy or serious financial stress within just two years of leaving the game and 60 percent of NBA players face the same dire results in five years.

 

[GoodKiwi]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/josh-smith-cries-poor-over-6-9m-in-earnings/

You be brave Josh, my heart goes out to up big guy...

And this is why the Clippers are still one joke of a franchise signing Smith thinking he'll put them over the top. Every NBA fan knows Josh' reputation and how much of a distraction that can be. Hell, just ask the Pistons. Not like the Clippers have any sort of a strong mentor-ship group either.

You are destined to fail once again Clippers. We'll just have to wait to find out how spectacular the failure will be this time around.


Note: I'm not a Clippers fan or even a fan of any particular NBA team, but I do follow the sport.

“At the end of the day, you know, I do have a family,” Smith said (via the Orlando Sentinel). “So it is going to be a little harder on me this year. But I’m going to push through it, you know.”

----

I don't know anything about Smith's personal life or reputation, but you'd be surprised just how much family you suddenly have once you strike it rich.

You should really look that up. Makes for some amusing read.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

It's been said before but a rule forcing a mandatory financial adviser on every athlete when they sign their first professional contract should be seriously considered by the various league's PAs. Especially when so many of those kids come from unprivileged backgrounds and don't have the support system or the education to prepare them for the drastic life style change that awaits them. Of course that would imply that the PAs actually care for the athletes, which they don't...

 

[GoodKiwi]

It's been said before but a rule forcing a mandatory financial adviser on every athlete when they sign their first professional contract should be seriously considered by the various league's PAs. Especially when so many of those kids come from unprivileged backgrounds and don't have the support system or the education to prepare them for the drastic life style change that awaits them. Of course that would imply that the PAs actually care for the athletes, which they don't...

I couldn't disagree more. A fool and his money are easily parted as they say. If you don't care/know enough to self-educate - you don't deserve a safety net. I'd rather see that cash fund local economy and eventually be put to better use.

 

[donghabs98]

Go to the NHL section of TSN.ca and basically all you see is lou lamoriello. His name is plastered everywhere.

 

[Bergevillain]

I couldn't disagree more. A fool and his money are easily parted as they say. If you don't care/know enough to self-educate - you don't deserve a safety net. I'd rather see that cash fund local economy and eventually be put to better use.

For some of these athletes, all they know are their sports. They aren't raised in a way that they are taught good finances, a lot of the times (often, outside the NHL) they come from lower income families and do not know how to spend/save properly. I think a lot of the reason that NHL players tend to do better with their money is that they are raised in an environment where their family are earners who know what it takes, as the cost for entry is much higher.

I think it would be in everyone's best interests for teams to higher financial advisers that only look toward the player's best interests.

 

[GoodKiwi]

For some of these athletes, all they know are their sports. They aren't raised in a way that they are taught good finances, a lot of the times (often, outside the NHL) they come from lower income families and do not know how to spend/save properly. I think a lot of the reason that NHL players tend to do better with their money is that they are raised in an environment where their family are earners who know what it takes, as the cost for entry is much higher.

I think it would be in everyone's best interests for teams to higher financial advisers that only look toward the player's best interests.

I've immigrated to Canada from a country without any consumer credit system or financial education in place. I've learned the hard way since and have taken the time to understand the impacts of careless spending. I also believe that a reform that comes naturally and from within is the best one. So, I will remain against forcing it on anyone. Just my opinion of course, but I really feel strongly about it.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

I couldn't disagree more. A fool and his money are easily parted as they say. If you don't care/know enough to self-educate - you don't deserve a safety net. I'd rather see that cash fund local economy and eventually be put to better use.

I agree in essence with what you're saying. Sadly though, it's been made abundantly clear over the years that a large number of those guys just WON'T learn. If, as a society, we're willing to throw millions at young athletes to entertain us then it's only fair that we take some of the responsibility that goes with our decision, i.e looking out for them a little. Mandatory help might be pushing it a little too far I'll grant you but there could be some middle ground there.

 

[GoodKiwi]

I agree in essence with what you're saying. Sadly though, it's been made abundantly clear over the years that a large number of those guys just WON'T learn. If, as a society, we're willing to throw millions at young athletes to entertain us then it's only fair that we take some of the responsibility that goes with our decision, i.e looking out for them a little. Mandatory help might be pushing it a little too far I'll grant you but there could be some middle ground there.

Yes, you've touched on the root of the problem which needs fixing as soon as possible IMO. The issue at hand is how badly the US college sports are broken (NCAA basketball & football specifically) and that they need attention now. I think we should go to the source here instead of putting a quick band-aid on it. I realize it's an enormous undertaking and even the thought of it ever being resolved seems far-fetched given our capitalist realities. But it's worth a try IMO.

 

[Hackett]

Professional athletes are not the brightest guys.

78 percent of NFL players face bankruptcy or serious financial stress within just two years of leaving the game and 60 percent of NBA players face the same dire results in five years.

ESPN had an excellent 30 for 30 film which broke down several reasons as to why players lose their money.

There's some great stories in there, including a mother who sent an invoice to her son, chronicling the expenses incurred to raise him, and using that as an "amount owing".

I really recommend it to anyone who is interested

 

[GoodKiwi]

ESPN had an excellent 30 for 30 film which broke down several reasons as to why players lose their money.

There's some great stories in there, including a mother who sent an invoice to her son, chronicling the expenses incurred to raise him, and using that as an "amount owing".

I really recommend it to anyone who is interested

Episode 44 - "Broke". I love "30 for 30" and own all of the episodes.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Me too, I highly recommend the whole series. I really like the Marcus Dupree one, the 1983 NFL draft one, pretty much all of them really. They're easy to find on the net.