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HF Habs: The official 2023-2024 tank thread

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Runner77 said:
You mean … we’re also a broken link image?

Man, this forum is replete with glitches ever since the data migration.
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Hum the image was visible when i posted it. Re-uploaded it is it visible now?

[edit]

Apparently not. Anyway from 2014-2015 we are 25th in the league and Ottawa 29th in P%.
 
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LaP said:
They stay in the basement simply because they did not draft the right guys.

The whole Ottawa and Buffalo will suck for the next 3000 years because they tank is just stupid reasoning. It's a reasoning that ignores the teams that went in the basement for a few years until they found the right guys.
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So guys like Dahlin and Eichel weren't the right guys to draft? That's nonsense.

Nobody's saying they will suck forever because they tanked, but they likely continue to suck for as long as they believe their main issue is they simply drafted the wrong guys and not everything else around the team.
 
LaP said:
2014-2015 to 2023-2024

View attachment 822473

We are not much better tbh

Ottawa was one of the best team for a long while. From 96-97 to 2012-2013 they missed the playoffs twice only, went to the 2nd round 5 times, the semis once and the scf once. Then Alfredson retired, they lost Chara on the UFA market and they made some bad trades like Zibanejad and they have yet to recover but let's not act we have been much better than then cause it's not true.
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You are talking about a long time ago...I am talking about right now and their 8 year rebuild which they should CLEARLY be far ahead of us by now.
 
Runner77 said:
Drafting the right guys has been an issue with this organization, esp. erring on so many first round picks in the pre-Hughes era.
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Caufield and Guhle are turning into core pieces and Mailloux is also doing very well in the AHL right now.

Drafting seems to have taken a turn for a better a bit before the change of management. Which is actually helping the rebuild.
 
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Runner77 said:
Drafting the right guys has been an issue with this organization, esp. erring on so many first round picks in the pre-Hughes era.

Development matters but can only get a talent achieve his potential, not achieve a higher ceiling. If the scouting staff errs on that higher ceiling player, then it’ll snowball from there.

Pay, overpay, poach the best amateur and pro scouting staff money can buy should always be Job 1 — as it is also the toughest job since most orgs tend to hold on to their best scouting talents. Coaching and development people are not as scarce a resource.
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So how does your model apply to Kucherov?
Point?
RNH?
Miller?
Reinhart?
Subban?

And on and on.

Draft place does not = ceiling... the perceived ceiling of a player is always going to be subjective, and the career trajectory that unlocks a players full potential is not a static one... Going from one environment to another, or having he environment around you change, often does lead to performance break throughs, long after fans/pundits prematurely capped their ceiling projection of a player.

Bottom line, the environment a player develops in has a significant impact on their career trajectory. Adding the best inputs (drafting high with a great scouting team) is obviously an important part of the equation... But it is only one part of the equation.
 
Damn 10-7 final Wild-Canucks! Nuts! Minnesota 6 pts up. No games in hand now. In fact, Minnesota is now only 2 pts back of WC2.

Kraken lose in OT. That point puts them 5 pts up. No games in hand.

Coyotes start a rookie goalie vs Oilers and are crushed 6-3. 10th consecutive loss, as expected. 2 pts back. No games in hand.

Moneyhands with a hattrick, but Jets lose 6-3 to Calgary. Flames are now 5 pts up. Montreal with a game in hand. Jets stay at #26, and use up one of their games in hand on Dallas & Colorado, respectively for the division lead.

Down to Ottawa @ Tampa Bay for today.
 
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Sorinth said:
So guys like Dahlin and Eichel weren't the right guys to draft? That's nonsense.

Nobody's saying they will suck forever because they tanked, but they likely continue to suck for as long as they believe their main issue is they simply drafted the wrong guys and not everything else around the team.
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They are obviously all still young but atm they have yet to make a difference. I believe Power and Dahlin will be a force in a couple of years. The others (Couzens, Quinn, Savoie) i'm not so sure.
 
Miller Time said:
So how does your model apply to Kucherov?
Point?
RNH?
Miller?
Reinhart?
Subban?

And on and on.

Draft place does not = ceiling... the perceived ceiling of a player is always going to be subjective, and the career trajectory that unlocks a players full potential is not a static one... Going from one environment to another, or having he environment around you change, often does lead to performance break throughs, long after fans/pundits prematurely capped their ceiling projection of a player.

Bottom line, the environment a player develops in has a significant impact on their career trajectory. Adding the best inputs (drafting high with a great scouting team) is obviously an important part of the equation... But it is only one part of the equation.
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Draft place doesn’t always beget ceiling but draft results analyzed over several decades do show that players taken earlier tend to have longer and/ or better careers/ ceilings. And the main part of that drafting success is imputable to the competence of your scouting staff.

Of course, there are exceptions but they only confirm the rule.
 
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Runner77 said:
Draft place doesn’t always beget ceiling but draft results analyzed over several decades do show that players taken earlier tend to have longer and/ or better careers/ ceilings. And the main part of that drafting success is imputable to the competence of your scouting staff.

Of course, there are exceptions but they only confirm the rule.
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Quite the opposite...

The draft results you speak to actually diminish the scouting importance you previously spoke to.

The importance of development in maximizing the odds of a player reaching their full ceiling does not mean any person has the same potential as the next.

The difference in talent or potential within a draft class is much smaller than the average fan appreciates... Especially outside of the top few talents, and increasingly as you fall away from the first round.

The attributes a great scouting team is adept at picking up over the competition is far more about the intangibles and context factors (which is why relationships and Intel are the name of the game) than it is about the easily observable on ice attributes.... 2 drafts in and it appears we have moved in that direction (Konyushkov, Hutson, Xhekaj, Engstrom, Volohkin et.)

A great organization appreciates the full context, and creates a culture that supports players in excelling... Which doesn't mean they don't have players who fall short, nor that they won't benefit from getting a McDavid or Crosby... Talent of course matters.
 
Miller Time said:
Quite the opposite...

The draft results you speak to actually diminish the scouting importance you previously spoke to.

The importance of development in maximizing the odds of a player reaching their full ceiling does not mean any person has the same potential as the next.

The difference in talent or potential within a draft class is much smaller than the average fan appreciates... Especially outside of the top few talents, and increasingly as you fall away from the first round.

The attributes a great scouting team is adept at picking up over the competition is far more about the intangibles and context factors (which is why relationships and Intel are the name of the game) than it is about the easily observable on ice attributes.... 2 drafts in and it appears we have moved in that direction (Konyushkov, Hutson, Xhekaj, Engstrom, Volohkin et.)

A great organization appreciates the full context, and creates a culture that supports players in excelling... Which doesn't mean they don't have players who fall short, nor that they won't benefit from getting a McDavid or Crosby... Talent of course matters.
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Au contraire, the only reason those early picks tend to be efficient is mostly due to the competence of scouting staffs.

If your scouting staff begets turds, then that’s what your development people will be polishing. It all begins with competent scouting.
 
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Runner77 said:
Au contraire, the only reason those early picks tend to be efficient is mostly due to the competence of scouting staffs.

If your scouting staff begets turds, then that’s what your development people will be polishing. It all begins with competent scouting.
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True. If KK never turns out then there was likely nothing the Habs staff could do to help him. If there was then the Hurricanes crew would have been able to have gotten him farther along. And if the scouts had liked Hughes as a top 3 pick it would have been a win regardless of development. If HuGo had taken Wright over Slaf it isn't likely the development staff could have turned Wright into a better player than Slaf.
 
Runner77 said:
Au contraire, the only reason those early picks tend to be efficient is mostly due to the competence of scouting staffs.

If your scouting staff begets turds, then that’s what your development people will be polishing. It all begins with competent scouting.
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Really?

Not sure how much competence went into picking McDavid, but sure...

How many top 5 picks in the past decade have been "turds"?

For all the complaining about JKO or Galch, reality is that very few players picked after were/are any better.

Did the Bolts scouting team pick a turd in Drouin, or was he the most talented player on the board at 3OA? Same group "found" a gem in Point a year later (yet in their wisdom drafted 3 other lesser players ahead of him).

It begins with competent leadership that hires the best people they can AND develops the ppl they have in order to run the best hockeyops department possible.

Same applies to the roster... Draft the best talent you can, put them in the best position to succeed, manage all your assets towards icing the best roster you can.

Rinse. Repeat. Starting point is the org. leadership, every other aspect comes 2nd to that.
 
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