Blue Jays Discussion: The off-season is on. (Robbie Ray wins AL Cy Young)

[as Pure as Evil]

Major League Baseball work stoppage almost certain on Dec. 2 - The Associated Press

HOUSTON (AP) — Baseball’s ninth work stoppage and first in 26 years appears almost certain to start Dec. 2, freezing the free-agent market and threatening the start of spring training in February.

Negotiations have been taking place since last spring, and each side thinks the other has not made proposals that will lead toward an agreement replacing the five-year contract that expires at 11:59 p.m. EST on Dec. 1.

The luxury tax system that started with the 2003 season sunsets with the expiration of the labor contract, with the exception of completing accounting and payments for the 2021 tax year. Uncertainty over the 2022 season probably will cause high-spending clubs to delay reaching pricier player agreements.

Free agents can start signing with any team on the sixth day following the World Series, and this year’s group includes Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Freddie Freeman, Trevor Story, Max Scherzer, Marcus Semien, Kris Bryant, Anthony Rizzo, Michael Conforto and Kevin Gausman.

MLB may attempt a signing freeze with the start of a lockout, or the marketplace might grind to a halt on its own, even more pronounced than the slowdowns of the 2017-18 and 2018-19 offseasons.

New York Yankees general manager Brian Cashman doesn’t know the parameters of what he has to spend.

“I have yet to have the conversation yet with what potentials, acknowledging that we have budget commitments already in play and depending on how the new collective bargaining agreement works out over the course of time, hopefully sooner than later,” he said.

Agents say they have received no guidance from the players’ association. Some have braced for a two-week scramble to sign next March or later, whenever a lockout ends.

This lack of pace in negotiations is similar to what occurred in 1989-90, when the agreement expired Dec. 31 and owners announced on Jan. 9 that a lockout would begin Feb. 15 absent an agreement. A deal was reached March 1 and opening day was delayed a week until April 9, causing 78 games to be postponed and rescheduled.

Teams have proposed eliminating salary arbitration and allowing players to become free agents in the offseason after they turn 29 1/2 rather than the six seasons of major league service in place since 1976. They have proposed a lower luxury threshold along with a payroll floor. Players have refused for decades to consider a payroll floor, feeling it would lead to a salary cap.

Concerned with “tanking” by rebuilding teams and a slide in spending on major league payrolls, players want changes in the current deal, which calls for payrolls to be taxed above $210 million (using average annual values plus benefits) and includes surtaxes that went into place for 2017. Management’s proposal called for the threshold to be dropped to $180 million, another factor that may gridlock many free agent negotiations.

so do the owners take the players to the wood shed this time. its due. the state of the world will be on the owners side. but who knows i expect more of the same.

 

[canucksfan]

MLB needs to fix a lot of things. They need a cap floor. Too many teams don't compete. They also need a stronger cap ceiling.

 

[canucksfan]

Don't think this was posted but I found this part interesting when ranking GMs

Atkins not only knew who to sign or promote, he also displayed a keen eye for whom to dump. He traded away, sold, or released 13 players who produced value for another major league team in 2021. In none of those 13 cases did the player’s value to his new team turn out to be positive.

2021 MLB general manager ratings: The AL East

 

[The Nemesis]

Don't think this was posted but I found this part interesting when ranking GMs

Atkins not only knew who to sign or promote, he also displayed a keen eye for whom to dump. He traded away, sold, or released 13 players who produced value for another major league team in 2021. In none of those 13 cases did the player’s value to his new team turn out to be positive.

2021 MLB general manager ratings: The AL East

That serves as a nice counterpoint to the weird thing going on on Twitter where an account called "Blue Jays Bat Boy" is trying desperately to convince people that this season proves it was the wrong play to dump Anthopoulos for Shapiro & Atkins.

 

[dredeye]

That serves as a nice counterpoint to the weird thing going on on Twitter where an account called "Blue Jays Bat Boy" is trying desperately to convince people that this season proves it was the wrong play to dump Anthopoulos for Shapiro & Atkins.

Because the braves are in the World Series I’m sure. People are so simple minded it’s insane

 

[theaub]

That serves as a nice counterpoint to the weird thing going on on Twitter where an account called "Blue Jays Bat Boy" is trying desperately to convince people that this season proves it was the wrong play to dump Anthopoulos for Shapiro & Atkins.

Isn't that guy a parody account? Absolute elite level trolling if he's getting people to buy in.

 

[BlueForever75]

Shatkins has done more than enough to keep pace with what AA has done since leaving the Jays. They are the furthest thing from the problem with this team. Remember the Jays had a better record than the Braves this past season. The Jays play in the toughest division in baseball. Just because the Braves have made it to World Series it doesnt mean their team is better. They just got hot at the right time and players on their team have performed better than expected. Come on Rosario???? That was a chance AA took and the player outperformed everyone's expectations. Not even AA thought he was getting that in the player when he acquired him.

 

[djdev]

anthopoulos was a good gm, the only trade i didnt understand and didnt like at the time was dickey, he won alot more trades than he lost and in all reality we should have gone to the WS with that 2015 team.
and if we are nitpicking - the halladay trade return was pretty trash but it was a tough situation and hindsight is always 20/20

all you can ask if your gm puts you in a postion to win.

also, he gave us vladdy <3

 

[Del Preston]

 

[Kurtz]

So some new stuff breaking with Ed Rogers, who apparently is a major league scumbag and tried to get rid of Masai Ujiri. Here's an excerpt from The Star today:


Other sports franchises from around the world were chasing Ujiri, according to an NBA source. One NBA team’s offer included a three-per-cent ownership stake along with a salary that eclipsed the $15 million per year deal he ultimately struck with MLSE. Teams in the English Premier League — soccer’s top domestic league — also made entreaties to Ujiri, an NBA Executive of the Year winner.

Tanenbaum and Bell were ready to lock Ujiri down, but, according to two sources close to the MLSE board, Edward Rogers was the holdout.

He told his partners he felt the compensation was too high, and, according to the MLSE sources and a source close to the NBA, Rogers was convinced the Raptors could be managed without Ujiri’s help by existing general manager Bobby Webster.

The increasingly tense situation came to a head during a late July meeting at Rogers’s Lake Rosseau cottage that cemented the executive’s antagonism toward the Raptors president.

Ujiri left the meeting feeling positive but Rogers told Tanenbaum it was one of the worst meetings he had ever had, according to MLSE sources. Rogers said the Raptors president was arrogant, according to sources, arriving with bodyguards, and that he failed to share his vision for the team.

The NBA source said Ujiri was caught off guard by that interpretation of the meeting, which he said had been amicable. The source also disputed that Ujiri brought bodyguards, saying the Raptors head had gone to Muskoka with his long-time driver so he could work in the car during the drive, as well as the videographer for a charitable project, who was tagging along as they were heading back to the airport after.

The sources said some time after the meeting, Rogers called Ujiri and told him he wasn’t worth the money he was being paid. The NBA source said the call left Ujiri feeling so angry and disrespected by Rogers that he considered taking a year off as president of the Raptors.


Oh, and:

Edward has been involved in the exits of previous CEOs and executives at Rogers Communications and his dealings with Ujiri were also not the first time he clashed with highly-respected Toronto sports executives.

In 2014, Rogers attempted to hire Kenny Williams, then the executive vice-president of the Chicago White Sox, to fill the role Paul Beeston held as the president of the Blue Jays. That move was scuttled when Jerry Reinsdorf, the owner of the White Sox, alerted his close friend Beeston of Rogers’s intentions.

Rogers was also involved in the departure of Blue Jays general manager Alex Anthopoulos after negotiations fell apart over the role Anthopoulos would play under Beeston’s successor, Mark Shapiro.

 

[theaub]

so do the owners take the players to the wood shed this time. its due. the state of the world will be on the owners side. but who knows i expect more of the same.

This time? Implying the owners don't take the players to the woodshed everytime.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

This time? Implying the owners don't take the players to the woodshed everytime.

if owners took players to the wood shed a salary cap would have been implemented in 94 with revenue sharing instead the owners went 0 for 2 and lost out a full season of revenue

 

[BlueForever75]

How does the possible departure of Edward Rogers from the Blue Jays ownership group effect the amount of dollars Shatkins will get to spend this off season?

Rogers and Shapiro seem to be on the same page unlike Masai and Raptors with Rogers!!!!

 

[Bjindaho]

if owners took players to the wood shed a salary cap would have been implemented in 94 with revenue sharing instead the owners went 0 for 2 and lost out a full season of revenue

Yes, because this is an intelligently constructed point of view.

The owners had to budge slightly after being convicted of collusion a few years before.

In all honesty, the players aren't really the problem. It's the idea that a team can blatantly pay no one and get paid by rich owners that makes no sense (which afaik is still what the owners want)

 

[Kurtz]

How does the possible departure of Edward Rogers from the Blue Jays ownership group effect the amount of dollars Shatkins will get to spend this off season?

Rogers and Shapiro seem to be on the same page unlike Masai and Raptors with Rogers!!!!

Given how tight Rogers was with money when it came to Masai I would not be surprised if he wanted to keep a tight purse on Jays spending (although Shatkins hinted at going up to $180 as their near term ceiling).

Having said that, the new bargaining agreement should be a factor here. Teams want lux tax to go down to $180 - players want it to stay at $210. Assuming they settle half way at $195 mil for luxury tax, I have to think that that's our ceiling either way.

 

[theaub]

Yes, because this is an intelligently constructed point of view.

The owners had to budge slightly after being convicted of collusion a few years before.

In all honesty, the players aren't really the problem. It's the idea that a team can blatantly pay no one and get paid by rich owners that makes no sense (which afaik is still what the owners want)

Yup its always baffling to see people take the side of the owners in labour negotiations.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Moreno went 4 for 4 with 3 runs, 2 RBI, 1 walk, and a sac fly. His team lost 16 to 15.

 

[Bjindaho]

If Gardner openly made fun of one of those guys listed, he would have been in the minors the next day. There is no excuse for showing up your star player and that sure as hell isn't "good natured ribbing"

 

[BlueForever75]

You would have to think this time around there will be a salary cap implemented in MLB. Its the only major North American sport that doesnt have one. You would have to think that with one in place it will cause more parity in the league and make for more meaningful baseball for more teams.

If the cap is set to lets say 190 million, you would have to think that the Jays would definitely spend to that mark on a year basis as MLSE allows all other sport franchises under its umbrella to do so.

But what would that mean for clubs like Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, San Diego and others that have payrolls already above that? Would they have to shed payroll. Would the league have to impose like NHL did a window where each team has the flexibility to buyout 2 contracts without impact to the cap for one season?

If that were the case whom on Jays do you buyout to clear space?

 

[theaub]

The luxury tax is already the salary cap for every team not named the Dodgers. They need a floor way more than a cap.

 

[Bjindaho]

Fun fact: The Mets have to forfeit the 14th overall pick if they sign a qualified free agent.

 

[heatersthebest]

How does the possible departure of Edward Rogers from the Blue Jays ownership group effect the amount of dollars Shatkins will get to spend this off season?

Rogers and Shapiro seem to be on the same page unlike Masai and Raptors with Rogers!!!!

I think it’s a positive. How can anyone think the Raptors would do as well without Masai. The most cash rich organizations in the world, The Premier League, we’re looking at him for positions…

 

[TheBeastCoast]

You would have to think this time around there will be a salary cap implemented in MLB. Its the only major North American sport that doesnt have one. You would have to think that with one in place it will cause more parity in the league and make for more meaningful baseball for more teams.

If the cap is set to lets say 190 million, you would have to think that the Jays would definitely spend to that mark on a year basis as MLSE allows all other sport franchises under its umbrella to do so.

But what would that mean for clubs like Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, San Diego and others that have payrolls already above that? Would they have to shed payroll. Would the league have to impose like NHL did a window where each team has the flexibility to buyout 2 contracts without impact to the cap for one season?

If that were the case whom on Jays do you buyout to clear space?

The Jay's arent a part of MLSE.

 

[theaub]

I think it’s a positive. How can anyone think the Raptors would do as well without Masai. The most cash rich organizations in the world, The Premier League, we’re looking at him for positions…

Shapiro was handpicked by Rogers though, Masai wasn't.

Either way I don't think it will matter as everyone involved is an idiot.

 

[Maestro84]

Haha yep I messed it up.

Interesting that if you only look at last 4 years Ramirez still stays ranked #3 and Semien is then ranked #4

Yeah Ramirez is extremely elite. In a pipe dream world the Jays will have 5 true impact players on their team

Springer - one of the best CFers

Vlad - best 1B

Semien - best 2B

JRam - best 3B (although Arenado might have something to say)

Bo - one of the best SS

Then you got Teo who has like 110+ RBIs yet he’s in the back chilling here and a very deep catching position