The Next Ones (after Bedard)

[bigdog16]

Kiviharju has always been at the top of the hockey hierarchy. He never disappointed. He crossed all the categories at a very high speed despite a major injury. This certainty of Kiviharju's collapse in your mind surprises me.

Nick Ebert had not accomplished 10% of what Kiviharju has accomplished sportingly since he was 10 years old. His case is rather comparable to Caden Price and Cameron Allen.

His lack of skating is greatly exaggerated. Overall, I'm pretty skeptical of this argument. I was sold big, fast centers that I find slow and clumsy, I was sold slow defenders that I find correct. For me Kiviharju is far from slow. This aspect coexists with exceptional qualities. In skill he is clearly the best defenseman of the 2000 generation, his offensive and defensive hockey IQ is extremely high.

Do not insist on struggling to say that Kiviharju is the case of a player who was praised as a child and who will not have a professional career.

Because he is the perfect counter-example of the player who has constantly confirmed and who arrived on the professional circuit at 17 despite a year of injury.

That is simply your opinion and I don’t agree with it. His skating is below average and hasn’t improved since he was 13. A small, undersized, poor moving dman isn’t someone I would take a top 5 pick on.

This coming year is a big prove it year for him. If there isn’t much progress from last year in Liiga, how can you expect him to be a top 5-10 pick? They don’t draft based on how good you were when you were 12.

 

[Apex Predator]

Isn’t McKenna Bedard a cousin?

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

That is simply your opinion and I don’t agree with it. His skating is below average and hasn’t improved since he was 13. A small, undersized, poor moving dman isn’t someone I would take a top 5 pick on.

This coming year is a big prove it year for him. If there isn’t much progress from last year in Liiga, how can you expect him to be a top 5-10 pick? They don’t draft based on how good you were when you were 12.

The problem is that you are validating as truth things that don't exist.

In reality, Kiviharju is the best defender in the Class of 2024 quite broadly. You wouldn't be able to name a better defender than him without acting in bad faith.

I don't understand your stubbornness to say that Kiviharju sucks

 

[wetcoast]

The problem is that you are validating as truth things that don't exist.

In reality, Kiviharju is the best defender in the Class of 2024 quite broadly. You wouldn't be able to name a better defender than him without acting in bad faith.

I don't understand your stubbornness to say that Kiviharju sucks

I think that you are arguing against yourself here being picked after 5 or heck even after 10 in a draft doesn't mean that a player sucks.

Simply put he was ahead and now there is a big 3 and then some other players and a whole year and then the draft which is based on projections, the stuff each prospect did before is nice for a HF Boards fan but NHL teams want to look forward.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I think that you are arguing against yourself here being picked after 5 or heck even after 10 in a draft doesn't mean that a player sucks.

Simply put he was ahead and now there is a big 3 and then some other players and a whole year and then the draft which is based on projections, the stuff each prospect did before is nice for a HF Boards fan but NHL teams want to look forward.

"His skating is below average and hasn’t improved since he was 13. A small, undersized, poor moving dman"

Clearly, that means he sucks.

Were Eiserman and Celebrini really behind Kiviharju ? If we rely on the statistics of the WSI U12 tournament in 2018, there was no difference in level. In 2020-21, while Kiviharju is injured, Eiserman and Celebrini blow it all up with Shattuck.

Performance progression is not necessarily linear. At 10, Kiviharju was at the level of the best in 2004 at the WSI U12. 2 years later, it has the same statistical yield. You could have already said that Kiviharju had the same level at 12 years old as at 10 years old while the others progressed. Then at 13, he released a crazy tournament.

By playing in Liiga, he inevitably became much stronger than before. Two years ago, I remember that it was a guy who had hardly played above U16. He was injured for a season.

 

[ijuka]

That is simply your opinion and I don’t agree with it. His skating is below average and hasn’t improved since he was 13. A small, undersized, poor moving dman isn’t someone I would take a top 5 pick on.

This coming year is a big prove it year for him. If there isn’t much progress from last year in Liiga, how can you expect him to be a top 5-10 pick? They don’t draft based on how good you were when you were 12.

I mean, Adam Fox is doing pretty well while being small without amazing skating.

You're focusing so much on his skating not improving since he was 13, when at 14 he missed an entire season with knee injury. Such things tend to affect skating, but might not do so permanently. And even if the skating is mediocre at 18, it might not be so at 22. Not to mention, I disagree on his skating being weak. Straightline skating might be, but there's so much more to skating than that.

Pretty obviously he needs to have a strong Liiga season, isn't that a given? But what, exactly, is a strong Liiga season to you? Heiskanen, for example, scored 10 points in his Liiga season and was picked 3rd overall.

To this point, Kiviharju has performed far better than Heiskanen at every level. For example, at u18s at the same age Heiskanen had 1 point, Kiviharju 7 in 5 games. Kiviharju's scoring at every level has been significantly better as well. If it's not next season? Well, then it's time to re-evaluate. That's how it goes.

 

[Postulates]

With Kivijarhu its a case of other top guys (Celebrini and Eiserman) just separating themselves and being more projectable

 

[kyle44]

In reality, Kiviharju is the best defender in the Class of 2024 quite broadly. You wouldn't be able to name a better defender than him without acting in bad faith.

You could make a case for any of Dickinson, Hutson, Jiricek or Levshunov as the top ranked defenseman in the 2024 class and it would be far from acting in bad faith.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

You could make a case for any of Dickinson, Hutson, Jiricek or Levshunov as the top ranked defenseman in the 2024 class and it would be far from acting in bad faith.

Light years from Kiviharju. Hutson comes closest.

 

[kyle44]

Light years from Kiviharju. Hutson comes closest.

Sure......I'd bet you my life savings at least 3 of the 4 go ahead of Kiviharju on draft day. Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Sure......I'd bet you my life savings at least 3 of the 4 go ahead of Kiviharju on draft day. Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

None for me.

It's been 7 years in a row that these guys have been behind Kiviharju, I don't see why it would be obvious that suddenly everything changes from one year to the next.

Even the top two (Hutson and Levshunov) of them have big weak points.

 

[kyle44]

None for me.

It's been 7 years in a row that these guys have been behind Kiviharju, I don't see why it would be obvious that suddenly everything changes from one year to the next.

Even the top two (Hutson and Levshunov) of them have big weak points.

This literally happens every single year with the NHL draft but you continue to ignore it somehow.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

This literally happens every single year with the NHL draft but you continue to ignore it somehow.

Tell me about Kiviharju-level U17 defenders who collapsed 1 year later. The last player to have had a similar level is Simon Nemec, he was selected 2.

 

[kyle44]

Tell me about Kiviharju-level U17 defenders who collapsed 1 year later. The last player to have had a similar level is Simon Nemec, he was selected 2.

I'm not saying he's going to "collapse." You're assuming that NHL teams will highly value the player because of WSI stats and some assists at the U-18s. He's very smart to be sure, but he's also small (smaller than listed IMO) and isn't a fantastic skater. He makes some nice offensive plays, but he's definitely not as dynamic as Lane/Cole Hutson, Hughes, Fox, etc. and you need to be either exceptionally dynamic or an exceptionally good skater to be an impact NHL defenseman at Kiviharju's size.

Guys like Dickinson and Jiricek have the combination of size, skating ability and other traits (Dickinson has a missile of a shot, for example) that NHL teams value, and I think that'll be reflected in the 2024 rankings.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Tell me about Kiviharju-level U17 defenders who collapsed 1 year later. The last player to have had a similar level is Simon Nemec, he was selected 2.

Timothy Liljegren.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Timothy Liljegren.

It's true. Excellent U17 season, U18 stagnation. But the previous and subsequent seasons have shown that his U17 season was an anomaly compared to his true level. Not the case of Kiviharju which has always been excellent. An established guy. Who dominated all the time outrageously until he was 17 years old.

The names are very rare and they are all successful guys.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I'm not saying he's going to "collapse." You're assuming that NHL teams will highly value the player because of WSI stats and some assists at the U-18s. He's very smart to be sure, but he's also small (smaller than listed IMO) and isn't a fantastic skater. He makes some nice offensive plays, but he's definitely not as dynamic as Lane/Cole Hutson, Hughes, Fox, etc. and you need to be either exceptionally dynamic or an exceptionally good skater to be an impact NHL defenseman at Kiviharju's size.

Guys like Dickinson and Jiricek have the combination of size, skating ability and other traits (Dickinson has a missile of a shot, for example) that NHL teams value, and I think that'll be reflected in the 2024 rankings.

I wonder how Kiviharju was able to outrageously dominate 7 years in a row with so little quality. Not dynamic, not mobile, not physical, not defensive, not shooting. How could he reach the senior circuit and break all records with a year of injury? It remains a great mystery.

 

[kyle44]

I wonder how Kiviharju was able to outrageously dominate 7 years in a row with so little quality. Not dynamic, not mobile, not physical, not defensive, not shooting. How could he reach the senior circuit and break all records with a year of injury? It remains a great mystery.

Your definition of "outrageously dominating" is far different than mine.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Your definition of "outrageously dominating" is far different than mine.

It's normal, you're in denial.

 

[FlappyGiraffe]

Right now I'd say Fantilli is the favourite to be the next one off the board after Bedard

 

[kyle44]

It's normal, you're in denial.

Could care less. You're the most condescending poster on this board and act is if your opinion is the only one that is valid.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Could care less. You're the most condescending poster on this board and act is if your opinion is the only one that is valid.

A guy who broke all records in the youth leagues in Finland and who made 8 out of 8 tournaments at more than a point per game with a not very dominant team by playing outclass... It's not outrageously dominating ...

I don't understand this stubbornness to bring down a player who has had a perfect run so far.

 

[Mathieukferland]

Sure......I'd bet you my life savings at least 3 of the 4 go ahead of Kiviharju on draft day. Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

This guy has “known” about Kiviharju since he was 11 or something it wouldn’t suprise me if it’s his father

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

This guy has “known” about Kiviharju since he was 11 or something it wouldn’t suprise me if it’s his father

LD Aron Kiviharju - TPS, FIN JRS (2024 Draft)

His Birthdate is January 25. 2006 - Age 11. Height: 5'1", Weight: 105 lbs He played in the D2(u13) AAA(highest level) league this season as his team's alternative captain. His team won the title. Also, while he didn't win the scoring title(Several players played on two teams and had nearly...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[GermanSpitfire]

It's true. Excellent U17 season, U18 stagnation. But the previous and subsequent seasons have shown that his U17 season was an anomaly compared to his true level. Not the case of Kiviharju which has always been excellent. An established guy. Who dominated all the time outrageously until he was 17 years old.

The names are very rare and they are all successful guys.

mono in your draft season is also a death sentence to a players stock but I think Liljegren would have fallen to around that range regardless.

As for Kiviharju, i have been quite pessimistic about him as a top-10 pick in particular, and I think that’s been the argument for a lot of folks down on Kivi. We see the talent, but there are certainly question marks around a 5’10“ defender, where mobile isn’t an asset, guys like that just don’t go that high on draft day.

This guy has “known” about Kiviharju since he was 11 or something it wouldn’t suprise me if it’s his father

No, he had an incredible U12 WSI at the age of 9 I believe - Kiviharju’s name has been floating around the scouting world for a while now. Not at all hard to believe someone has known about him for that long.