The Next Ones (after Bedard)

[bigdog16]

I mean, Adam Fox is doing pretty well while being small without amazing skating.

You're focusing so much on his skating not improving since he was 13, when at 14 he missed an entire season with knee injury. Such things tend to affect skating, but might not do so permanently. And even if the skating is mediocre at 18, it might not be so at 22. Not to mention, I disagree on his skating being weak. Straightline skating might be, but there's so much more to skating than that.

Pretty obviously he needs to have a strong Liiga season, isn't that a given? But what, exactly, is a strong Liiga season to you? Heiskanen, for example, scored 10 points in his Liiga season and was picked 3rd overall.

To this point, Kiviharju has performed far better than Heiskanen at every level. For example, at u18s at the same age Heiskanen had 1 point, Kiviharju 7 in 5 games. Kiviharju's scoring at every level has been significantly better as well. If it's not next season? Well, then it's time to re-evaluate. That's how it goes.

Very true, Adam Fox was also a late bloomer of a player, and also not a generational dman like you claimed Kiviharju was.

I agree that his agility and edgework is strong, but his speed is below average. Putting up a Heiskanen like season should be the expectation, but he was also way stronger defensively, while Kiviharju is better offensively.

Its just funny to me he was the sure fire #1 pick just a year or two ago and now hes fallen behind the top 2. Who knows where he will be next year. Could be #1, could be #15.

 

[wetcoast]

I mean, Adam Fox is doing pretty well while being small without amazing skating.

You're focusing so much on his skating not improving since he was 13, when at 14 he missed an entire season with knee injury. Such things tend to affect skating, but might not do so permanently. And even if the skating is mediocre at 18, it might not be so at 22. Not to mention, I disagree on his skating being weak. Straightline skating might be, but there's so much more to skating than that.

Pretty obviously he needs to have a strong Liiga season, isn't that a given? But what, exactly, is a strong Liiga season to you? Heiskanen, for example, scored 10 points in his Liiga season and was picked 3rd overall.

To this point, Kiviharju has performed far better than Heiskanen at every level. For example, at u18s at the same age Heiskanen had 1 point, Kiviharju 7 in 5 games. Kiviharju's scoring at every level has been significantly better as well. If it's not next season? Well, then it's time to re-evaluate. That's how it goes.

NHL teams don't draft player based on points, that's for fantasy hockey leagues, but rather for actual NHL projection and you should know this after the hype around Kaapo Kakko and his outstanding stats during his draft season.

This point is even more important for Dmen one would think so dropping the Heiskanen comparison is foolish to say the least IMO as Miro is an all around defender more know for his defense than his offense.

 

[Castle8130]

Between Misa, Celebrini, and Mckenna I like Mckenna the most. I know this is very pre-mature, but Mckenna looks like he has the ability to be one of the premiere playmakers in the NHL. He has unbelieveable vision and playmaking ability combined with great skating. It is much too early to determine who the best is, but stylistically I'd rank them as follows;

Mckenna
Misa
Celebrini

Celebrini is definitely the clear cut favorite due to his dominating play in both the u-18s and USHL, but I think his style of play is a bit less convertible compared to the other two (if we are talking upside). I expect all 3 to be really good NHLers, but if I'm betting on who has the highest chance to become a top 10 player of all time (per the thread title), I'm going Mckenna because of his style.

 

[bigdog16]

There was a big tournament in Nashville this weekend with the best 09s in NA. Pelosi was atop the scoring leaders with 20 pts in 7 games.

Alexis Joseph’s (16 pts in 7 games) Pro Hockey is facing Nolan Fitzhenry’s (9 pts in 7 games) Minnesota Blades in the championship game later today.

No Dupont in attendance but a majority of the top end 09s were there

 

[kyle44]

I wonder how Kiviharju was able to outrageously dominate 7 years in a row with so little quality. Not dynamic, not mobile, not physical, not defensive, not shooting. How could he reach the senior circuit and break all records with a year of injury? It remains a great mystery.

Light years from Kiviharju. Hutson comes closest.

Macklin Celebrini leads 'Big Three' atop Bob McKenzie's TSN pre-season NHL draft ranking | TSN

Nine out of 10 NHL scouts surveyed to determine TSN’s Pre-Season Top 16 Rankings slotted the 17-year-old Boston University freshman from Vancouver at the top of their respective lists.

www.tsn.ca

Will you look at that. All 3 of Levshunov, Dickinson and Jiricek ranked ahead of Kiviharju by a panel of NHL scouts.

 

[LeProspector]

Macklin Celebrini leads 'Big Three' atop Bob McKenzie's TSN pre-season NHL draft ranking | TSN

Nine out of 10 NHL scouts surveyed to determine TSN’s Pre-Season Top 16 Rankings slotted the 17-year-old Boston University freshman from Vancouver at the top of their respective lists.

www.tsn.ca

Will you look at that. All 3 of Levshunov, Dickinson and Jiricek ranked ahead of Kiviharju by a panel of NHL scouts.

He looks at EP and makes up his mind on some
players while not watching a single shiftIt’s what he’s known for on this site. And he is proven wrong yet again.

 

[ijuka]

On the topic of Kiviharju and the mysterious effectiveness, he has strong "micro understanding" or the ability to navigate micro movements with the stick and the body and very quick wit. With the puck, that's displayed just about every game still, although the skating micro aspects are mostly gone recently(since injury). I'm still confident he'll get them back eventually. He used those a ton before he got injured.

As for upcoming ones, for Finland the most interesting one by far out of the ones below the u-16 level is 12yo center Juho Nyberg, 24 points in 8 pre-season games at u-15s for 3 points per game, leading pre-season scoring by 6 points, double underager. Generally, this u-15 level is the first "meaningful" level of play to gauge something like this, although it's probably more prudent to wait one more year.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Macklin Celebrini leads 'Big Three' atop Bob McKenzie's TSN pre-season NHL draft ranking | TSN

Nine out of 10 NHL scouts surveyed to determine TSN’s Pre-Season Top 16 Rankings slotted the 17-year-old Boston University freshman from Vancouver at the top of their respective lists.

www.tsn.ca

Will you look at that. All 3 of Levshunov, Dickinson and Jiricek ranked ahead of Kiviharju by a panel of NHL scouts.

Kiviharju who doesn't play the HG tournament because he is too strong for this tournament he already did - who slips behind guys who had a worse tournament than Kiviharju with a year younger... Hum...

 

[bigdog16]

The excuse train will never end for Kiviharju. Talking about micro movements? A smaller Olli Juolevi.

The season hasn't even started and he's already ranked 10th on Bobbys list. Not very crazy to think he may not even be a first rounder come draft day

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

The excuse train will never end for Kiviharju. Talking about micro movements? A smaller Olli Juolevi.

The season hasn't even started and he's already ranked 10th on Bobbys list. Not very crazy to think he may not even be a first rounder come draft day

People who still haven't understood that Kiviharju was an elite puck possessing defender and an exceptional Finland-wide talent after 7 years of scouting...

 

[ijuka]

The excuse train will never end for Kiviharju. Talking about micro movements? A smaller Olli Juolevi.

The season hasn't even started and he's already ranked 10th on Bobbys list. Not very crazy to think he may not even be a first rounder come draft day

What excuse train? I was saying that that's one thing he's effective at, to a person puzzled about it.

Also, do you think he'd be 10th if he had played at the Hlinka and scored, say, 8 points there? He hasn't even played any meaningful games this season, his first game's tomorrow.

 

[ujju2]

Allgood, Melicherik...these are the most compatible names because the next Bedard will be a player from another generation.

If Misa, McKenna or others born around 2005 reach Bedard's level, then Bedard will not be a generational player.

Generational means best player of his generation. In the history of the NHL, there are only 5 that are indisputable (Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Crosby, McDavid).

Between Gretzky and Crosby - Lemieux, Hasek, Sakic, Jagr are rather exceptional.

So the next Bedard is either a child or not yet born.

Eh... Not to be that guy (I'm fully aware I will be) but with Ovi being the GOAT goalscorer and whatnot, I'm not sure Crosby's case as the best of his generation is necessarily unassailable.

 

[FinPanda]

I for sure hope Kiviharju will prove people wrong. He may not be a top 5 pick but I think 10 is possible. He hasn't even played yet this season.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Eh... Not to be that guy (I'm fully aware I will be) but with Ovi being the GOAT goalscorer and whatnot, I'm not sure Crosby's case as the best of his generation is necessarily unassailable.

Ovechkin's record doesn't mean much. Above all, he is, by far, the player with the most shots on goal in the history of the NHL.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Shots | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Alex Ovechkin (6768), 2. Ray Bourque (6209), 3. Jaromír Jágr (5637), 4. Marcel Dionne (5363), 5. Phil Esposito (5166), 6. Al MacInnis (5157), 7. Mike Gartner (5090), 8. Wayne Gretzky (5088), 9. Brendan Shanahan (5086), 10. Brett Hull (4876)

www.hockey-reference.com

Any player who took 10 shots per game would break Gretzky's record. It's mathematic.

Aside from shooting, Ovechkin has significantly reduced on-ice activity compared to Crosby.

 

[ijuka]

Ovechkin's record doesn't mean much. Above all, he is, by far, the player with the most shots on goal in the history of the NHL.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Shots | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Alex Ovechkin (6768), 2. Ray Bourque (6209), 3. Jaromír Jágr (5637), 4. Marcel Dionne (5363), 5. Phil Esposito (5166), 6. Al MacInnis (5157), 7. Mike Gartner (5090), 8. Wayne Gretzky (5088), 9. Brendan Shanahan (5086), 10. Brett Hull (4876)

www.hockey-reference.com

Any player who took 10 shots per game would break Gretzky's record. It's mathematic.

Aside from shooting, Ovechkin has significantly reduced on-ice activity compared to Crosby.

Then why aren't those other players shooting 10 times per game?

What, exactly, is this "on-ice activity" designed to accomplish, when generating shots is apparently not the aim?

 

[BMann]

Ovechkin's record doesn't mean much. Above all, he is, by far, the player with the most shots on goal in the history of the NHL.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Shots | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Alex Ovechkin (6768), 2. Ray Bourque (6209), 3. Jaromír Jágr (5637), 4. Marcel Dionne (5363), 5. Phil Esposito (5166), 6. Al MacInnis (5157), 7. Mike Gartner (5090), 8. Wayne Gretzky (5088), 9. Brendan Shanahan (5086), 10. Brett Hull (4876)

www.hockey-reference.com

Any player who took 10 shots per game would break Gretzky's record. It's mathematic.

Aside from shooting, Ovechkin has significantly reduced on-ice activity compared to Crosby.

Really, Even if their shot was weak and not very accurate ? What an idiotic statement. I wish people would sometimes take a moment to think about what they write before committing it to the net. Don't let bias and prejudice undermine critical thinking.

 

[bigdog16]

What excuse train? I was saying that that's one thing he's effective at, to a person puzzled about it.

Also, do you think he'd be 10th if he had played at the Hlinka and scored, say, 8 points there? He hasn't even played any meaningful games this season, his first game's tomorrow.

You quite literally have an excuse or rebuttal to everything ndgative said about Kiviharju. He hasn’t improved, is undersized, and is a poor skater.

 

[ijuka]

You quite literally have an excuse or rebuttal to everything ndgative said about Kiviharju. He hasn’t improved, is undersized, and is a poor skater.

I'd suggest reading the comment I responded to and looking at what point I was actually addressing. Doing so might be very helpful for you understanding the conversation, since it clearly is a struggle currently.

Ah, right. I'd also suggest waiting to see him play games this season before declaring that he hasn't improved.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Really, Even if their shot was weak and not very accurate ? What an idiotic statement. I wish people would sometimes take a moment to think about what they write before committing it to the net. Don't let bias and prejudice undermine critical thinking.

Perhaps I should have clarified that but obviously I was thinking of elite players. You and I couldn't.

Ovechkin's shooting percentage really isn't very impressive. Only 12.9%. Very far from the bests.

Many players in the rankings could have reached the 1000 goal plateau if they only played to score like Ovechkin.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Shooting Percentage | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Craig Simpson (23.66), 2. Charlie Simmer (22.34), 3. Paul MacLean (21.40), 4. Mike Bossy (21.15), 5. Camille Henry (20.85), 6. Yvon Lambert (19.81), 7. Rick Middleton (19.72), 8. Darryl Sutter (19.49), 9. Blaine Stoughton (19.49), 10. Rob Brown (19.41)

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[bigdog16]

I'd suggest reading the comment I responded to and looking at what point I was actually addressing. Doing so might be very helpful for you understanding the conversation, since it clearly is a struggle currently.

Ah, right. I'd also suggest waiting to see him play games this season before declaring that he hasn't improved.

And if there is no improvement and he goes late first round you will claim that Finns are unfairly scouted, overlooked, and he should have been a top 10 pick. Its a revolving door with you, the same story every time. Same reason Kakko didn’t go 1st over Jack Hughes

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

very early but remember this name Liam Tep

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

very early but remember this name Liam Tep

Saw this guy playing during Brick. Made 3 passes to his teammates throughout the tournament.

For dribbling players in non-contact games, it was the best.

The other aspects of the game are not exploited at all on the ice.

Cameron Coombe had a much more complete and transposable game in the higher categories.

 

[ijuka]

And if there is no improvement and he goes late first round you will claim that Finns are unfairly scouted, overlooked, and he should have been a top 10 pick. Its a revolving door with you, the same story every time. Same reason Kakko didn’t go 1st over Jack Hughes

Oh, so you just wanted to attack me personally. Sorry for assuming you had something to say regarding the actual thread. Take it to PMs please, not that I ever read them.

It's been 4 years but maybe you'll get over it by 2030.

As for the topic, I think it's pretty natural to look at whether the player's improved before determining whether the player's improved but maybe that's just me.

 

[bigdog16]

Oh, so you just wanted to attack me personally. Sorry for assuming you had something to say regarding the actual thread. Take it to PMs please, not that I ever read them.

It's been 4 years but maybe you'll get over it by 2030.

As for the topic, I think it's pretty natural to look at whether the player's improved before determining whether the player's improved but maybe that's just me.

People don’t forget that you made multiple usernames to agree with yourself and attack me back then either

As for the topic, theres been little if any improvement the past 2 years. But you obviously disagree. Im just reminding you that you have a history of being severely biased

 

[Bonin21]

Ovechkin's record doesn't mean much. Above all, he is, by far, the player with the most shots on goal in the history of the NHL.