The Next Ones (after Bedard)

[bigdog16]

Sorry but no. There was already skepticism about his size from the first page.

Literally the first post says "if a 11-year-old defenseman can possibly be generational, this is it. He's going to be the next Erik Karlsson"

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Literally the first post says "if a 11-year-old defenseman can possibly be generational, this is it. He's going to be the next Erik Karlsson"

The person therefore did not master the concept of generational. Erik Karlsson is an elite defender. And to this day, Kiviharju is ahead of him.

 

[Gillings]

Well at least we know to ignore all your opinions about players now. Talk about an outrageously uneducated opinion.

Howe and Orr are a full tier above Crosby. The gap is so insanely massive that to argue the contrary is like trying to argue for a flat earth.

I was just riling you guys up had a few drinks last night and felt like getting into an old fashion HFboards argument

Cheers mates!

 

[bigdog16]

The person therefore did not master the concept of generational. Erik Karlsson is an elite defender. And to this day, Kiviharju is ahead of him.

You are saying Kiviharju is ahead of Karlsson right now? So in your opinion Kiviharju is a lock to be in the hall of fame?

Am I reading this right?

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I was just riling you guys up had a few drinks last night and felt like getting into an old fashion HFboards argument

Cheers mates!

Even. His statement is ridiculous. He has never seen these players. He only knows them by reputation and gets an idea from statistics. 60 years separate Howe from Crosby. Hockey has become denser in terms of talent. The performances of Bobby Orr or Wayne Gretzky are unachievable today. Their stats were done in a more offensive, indefinitely less talented, and predominantly Canadian league. If we move Crosby back to the 1950s/60s, he crushes the NHL.

You are saying Kiviharju is ahead of Karlsson right now? So in your opinion Kiviharju is a lock to be in the hall of fame?

Am I reading this right?

If you didn't understand that I was comparing the two players at the same age, it's no wonder you make misinterpretations as soon as a user gets excited about a player.

 

[bigdog16]

Even. His statement is ridiculous. He has never seen these players. He only knows them by reputation and gets an idea from statistics. 60 years separate Howe from Crosby. Hockey has become denser in terms of talent. The performances of Bobby Orr or Wayne Gretzky are unachievable today. Their stats were done in a more offensive, indefinitely less talented, and predominantly Canadian league. If we move Crosby back to the 1950s/60s, he crushes the NHL.


If you didn't understand that I was comparing the two players at the same age, it's no wonder you make misinterpretations as soon as a user gets excited about a player.

Well you should have just said that, not in some obscure statement insinuating otherwise.

Regardless, Karlsson went 15th overall. Its not far fetched at all to think right now Kiviharju drops to well past 15 next year

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Well you should have just said that, not in some obscure statement insinuating otherwise.

Regardless, Karlsson went 15th overall. Its not far fetched at all to think right now Kiviharju drops to well past 15 next year

It seemed obvious to me. Because obviously Kiviharju does not have the level of Karlsson today. But at 17, he has the level that Karlsson had at 18. To this day, it seems crazy to me to think that he will be selected outside the top 10. He would really have to collapse because he is far ahead of Quinn Hughes at the same age. 15th is about the rank he would have had he been born a year older. 3rd defender after Reinbacher and Sandin.

 

[wetcoast]

It seemed obvious to me. Because obviously Kiviharju does not have the level of Karlsson today. But at 17, he has the level that Karlsson had at 18. To this day, it seems crazy to me to think that he will be selected outside the top 10. He would really have to collapse because he is far ahead of Quinn Hughes at the same age. 15th is about the rank he would have had he been born a year older. 3rd defender after Reinbacher and Sandin.

I think the important thing about Kiviharju is how his skating and development goes in his draft season along with projectibility in the NHL.

Quinn Hughes had the projecatbiblity of being a top notch offensive Dman in the NHL minus the shot but there were questions about his defense which he has answered and alot of his game is built around his skating, Kiviharju simply isn't a Hughes level skater and almost certainly will not be a top 5 pick next year so why is he even mentioned in this thread?.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I think the important thing about Kiviharju is how his skating and development goes in his draft season along with projectibility in the NHL.

Quinn Hughes had the projecatbiblity of being a top notch offensive Dman in the NHL minus the shot but there were questions about his defense which he has answered and alot of his game is built around his skating, Kiviharju simply isn't a Hughes level skater and almost certainly will not be a top 5 pick next year so why is he even mentioned in this thread?.

Kiviharju has everything better than Hughes aside from skating.

Strange this idea that Kiviharju is condemned not to progress.

He is clearly 3rd currently so there is room.

 

[wetcoast]

Kiviharju has everything better than Hughes aside from skating.

That's hard to say Hughes in his draft year had a pretty good line in college hockey and was seen as very projectable at least offensively.

Strange this idea that Kiviharju is condemned not to progress.

Sure he is progressing but not at the same rate and other have passed him.

He is clearly 3rd currently so there is room.

Eiserman, Celebrini and demidov are clearly the big 3 for 24 right now, where Kiviharju fits is uncertain at this point.​

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

That's hard to say Hughes in his draft year had a pretty good line in college hockey and was seen as very projectable at least offensively.


Sure he is progressing but not at the same rate and other have passed him.

Eiserman, Celebrini and demidov are clearly the big 3 for 24 right now, where Kiviharju fits is uncertain at this point.​

Demidov? Be serious.

First, you've never seen him play this year,
Second, the Russian factor will drag him down
Third, you put a winger who doesn't even play in Russia Level 2 in front of a defender who plays in Finland Level 1.

 

[wetcoast]

Demidov? Be serious.

First, you've never seen him play this year,
Second, the Russian factor will drag him down
Third, you put a winger who doesn't even play in Russia Level 2 in front of a defender who plays in Finland Level 1.

Demidov was good enough to play for Russia in the 21-22 Hlinka cup while Kiviharju didn't play in that tournament until this past season and yes I have him as part of the big 3 for 24 his skillset is that good.

 

[Postulates]

What I usually take away from these child prodigies and first page of a new draft year thread, is people overrating Europeans and Quebec kids who eventually get passed up by American, Ontario or Western Canadian kids

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Demidov was good enough to play for Russia in the 21-22 Hlinka cup while Kiviharju didn't play in that tournament until this past season and yes I have him as part of the big 3 for 24 his skillset is that good.

Kiviharju had a long injury at this time

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

What I usually take away from these child prodigies and first page of a new draft year thread, is people overrating Europeans and Quebec kids who eventually get passed up by American, Ontario or Western Canadian kids

I rather have the impression that it is the opposite.

European players are detected later in general.

Quebec players are not highly regarded.

Maybe we talk about it more because there is more readability (only one elite league from U13).

Who has been hyped in recent years? Veleno with its exceptional status, Lafreniere, D'Aigle and that's it.

Hypes rarely build before the switch to QMAAA. Rozzi, Scantlebury and Joseph are still at the stage of uncertainty.

 

[Postulates]

2025 NHL Draft Prospects

2027 NHL draft prospects

Russia Daniil Yermolov Alexsandr Vinogradov Yevgenij Yakunin Nikolaj Butko Artyom Katsuro Nazar Privalov Arseniy Savin Vladimir Shtyrkhunov Tikhon Ganus Kirill Teplyakov Emir Gallyamov Nikita Koltsov Ivan Kovalenko Frank Kolgushkin Artyom Mate Dmitriy Savin Andrei Pustovoy Zakhar Brazhnikov...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Postulates]

I rather have the impression that it is the opposite.

European players are detected later in general.

Quebec players are not highly regarded.

Maybe we talk about it more because there is more readability (only one elite league from U13).

Who has been hyped in recent years? Veleno with its exceptional status, Lafreniere, D'Aigle and that's it.

Hypes rarely build before the switch to QMAAA. Rozzi, Scantlebury and Joseph are still at the stage of uncertainty.

2023 NHL draft prospects

Do we have any names yet?

forums.hfboards.com

same with every other version of the thread (look at 2024, 2025, 2026,2027)

 

[wetcoast]

Kiviharju had a long injury at this time

That great but the point was that Demidov was driving the bus on his MHL team and aldo did get a cup of coffee with the KHL team and sure Kiviharju did play in the top Finnish league but really so what, he didn't exactly dominate at the U20 level in Finland this year either.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

2023 NHL draft prospects

Do we have any names yet?

forums.hfboards.com

same with every other version of the thread (look at 2024, 2025, 2026,2027)

These are just inventories based on national team members.

That great but the point was that Demidov was driving the bus on his MHL team and aldo did get a cup of coffee with the KHL team and sure Kiviharju did play in the top Finnish league but really so what, he didn't exactly dominate at the U20 level in Finland this year either.

He just broke the points per game record for an U17 defender.

Record that already belonged to him and that he had made after almost a year without playing.

 

[ijuka]

Literally the first post says "if a 11-year-old defenseman can possibly be generational, this is it. He's going to be the next Erik Karlsson"

Perhaps you have overly high expectations, but 11-year-olds are pretty difficult to project and I think I did pretty well. I of course couldn't predict that he would have a knee injury that would cause him to miss the entire 20-21 season(who knows how far that set him back), but the profiling as a puckmoving defenseman whose greatest strength is the breakout just like it is Karlsson's was pretty well done by me considering it was a 11-year-old. Just my opinion.

Also, you say he's not generational, though he has broken numerous all-time scoring records. That is a bit of a curious declaration, everything considered. Next season will be a pretty strong indicator or whether he is or isn't, but regardless, it's pretty tough to tell of a 11-year-old defenseman in any case.

 

[Mathieukferland]

What I usually take away from these child prodigies and first page of a new draft year thread, is people overrating Europeans and Quebec kids who eventually get passed up by American, Ontario or Western Canadian kids

I can tell you here in Québec people tend to do the opposite, kids like Zach Morin or Sasha Boisvert who go abroad to play are often praised nonstop for doing it in “a real league”, whereas recent prospects like Caleb Desnoyers or Rozzi are downplayed because they only perform in the domestic league here

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I can tell you here in Québec people tend to do the opposite, kids like Zach Morin or Sasha Boisvert who go abroad to play are often praised nonstop for doing it in “a real league”, whereas recent prospects like Caleb Desnoyers or Rozzi are downplayed because they only perform in the domestic league here

Boisvert is two years older than Rozzi. The first plays in Junior, the second in Bantam. So less fire. Morin was hyped as the best Pee Wee in Quebec in 2020. Desnoyers did not explode the statistics in Midget.

 

[bigdog16]

Perhaps you have overly high expectations, but 11-year-olds are pretty difficult to project and I think I did pretty well. I of course couldn't predict that he would have a knee injury that would cause him to miss the entire 20-21 season(who knows how far that set him back), but the profiling as a puckmoving defenseman whose greatest strength is the breakout just like it is Karlsson's was pretty well done by me considering it was a 11-year-old. Just my opinion.

Also, you say he's not generational, though he has broken numerous all-time scoring records. That is a bit of a curious declaration, everything considered. Next season will be a pretty strong indicator or whether he is or isn't, but regardless, it's pretty tough to tell of a 11-year-old defenseman in any case.

How many generational players haven’t been drafted 1st overall? Barring a big comeback year Kiviharju isnt even a top 5 pick next year.

Its not that wild of a guess that an 11 year old kid playing multiple age groups ahead will end up being a good player. There is a very high chance he becomes a good player. You claimed generational, he isnt. Hes small and while he has good agility, his skating and stride is bad. In a game trending towards speed he will struggle.

 

[bigdog16]

It seemed obvious to me. Because obviously Kiviharju does not have the level of Karlsson today. But at 17, he has the level that Karlsson had at 18. To this day, it seems crazy to me to think that he will be selected outside the top 10. He would really have to collapse because he is far ahead of Quinn Hughes at the same age. 15th is about the rank he would have had he been born a year older. 3rd defender after Reinbacher and Sandin.

Hes trending in the wrong direction.

Remember when Nick Ebert was projected to be a top 3 pick in the draft one year out? He ended up going DEAD LAST in the 7th round. This sort of stuff happens. I truly do not think Kiviharju has the skating ability right now to make it at the next level.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Hes trending in the wrong direction.

Remember when Nick Ebert was projected to be a top 3 pick in the draft one year out? He ended up going DEAD LAST in the 7th round. This sort of stuff happens. I truly do not think Kiviharju has the skating ability right now to make it at the next level.

Kiviharju has always been at the top of the hockey hierarchy. He never disappointed. He crossed all the categories at a very high speed despite a major injury. This certainty of Kiviharju's collapse in your mind surprises me.

Nick Ebert had not accomplished 10% of what Kiviharju has accomplished sportingly since he was 10 years old. His case is rather comparable to Caden Price and Cameron Allen.

His lack of skating is greatly exaggerated. Overall, I'm pretty skeptical of this argument. I was sold big, fast centers that I find slow and clumsy, I was sold slow defenders that I find correct. For me Kiviharju is far from slow. This aspect coexists with exceptional qualities. In skill he is clearly the best defenseman of the 2000 generation, his offensive and defensive hockey IQ is extremely high.

Do not insist on struggling to say that Kiviharju is the case of a player who was praised as a child and who will not have a professional career.

Because he is the perfect counter-example of the player who has constantly confirmed and who arrived on the professional circuit at 17 despite a year of injury.