Confirmed with Link: The new coach of the Philadelphia Flyers is John Tortorella

[Rebels57]

They literally did not mention the offensive side of the game one time last offseason. They thought they were good in that area in 20/21.

All you heard was how poor defensively they were over and over. Chuck “fixed” that going into the season and they got worse.

Is that good management to neglect an entire aspect of the game and at the same time make the area that you “fixed” worse?

And that's where our media continues to fail us. Why hasn't Chuckle f*** been called out on this?

The thing that killed me was that last off-season Fletcher specifically mentioned defending better by defending less, moving the puck out more efficiently, etc.

Then made moves that all of us that were paying attention knew would do the exact opposite. He said it again this off-season.

I'm terrified.

He is very, and I mean VERY, stupid.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

And that's where our media continues to fail us. Why hasn't Chuckle f*** been called out on this?



He is very, and I mean VERY, stupid.

The reason being that this city loves the defensive side of sports. Look at the Eagles every year the fanbase bitches about not having a defense that is feared. Same logic applies to the Flyers and their defense.

Cavemen.

 

[Larry44]

He didn't get re-signed by the Caps because the management didn't want to pay him for winning them a cup that year. They were being cheap and so they moved on.

This isn't quite accurate. Todd Reirden was an ass't who had an offer from another team. The Caps decided to move on from Trotz during the season and promised Todd the HC job. Then Trotz went out and won the Cup unexpectedly - and they decided to follow their plan and not reward Trotz.

That said, I still suspect Quenneville is our next coach, not Trotz. Not sure I agree, but it's just such a Chuckles thing to do.

 

[deadhead]

They literally did not mention the offensive side of the game one time last offseason. They thought they were good in that area in 20/21.

All you heard was how poor defensively they were over and over. Chuck “fixed” that going into the season and they got worse.

Is that good management to neglect an entire aspect of the game and at the same time make the area that you “fixed” worse?

Well, Couts is a top offensive center and Ellis was in the top five among D-men in pp/60.
With Farabee, TK, JVR, Atkinson, G, and Sanheim, for some reason they thought going into the season they were fine on offense.
"The best laid plans of mice and men oft go wrong"

One reason to bring in a development oriented coach is to get the young players on the same page with sound fundamentals.
Good teams not only are aggressive on offense, they back check aggressively, regain the puck and flip the ice.
And their forwards are disciplined about not leaving the D-zone too soon and having their D-men looking in vain for someone to pass the puck to.
Something the Flyers don't do consistently.

High IQ players can play offense, they do so without sacrificing defense, same way high motor guys play a 200 foot game.
The surprising thing about Cates was how he was able to use his high IQ more effectively in the NHL where he wasn't being stifled by an ultra-conservative college scheme.

 

[deadhead]

They really are in a position of tear down, rebuild. Our objective isn’t just to make the playoffs, but a cup, wouldn’t you agree?

Even when fully healthy and all players performing at their top level, are we really there? Do we have a roster capable of making it past the second round? I don’t think so, do you?

The team fundamentally lacks elite talent at all positions.

Our three best forwards make for a top 10-15 first line in the league. After that, the depth isn’t great.

Defense, we have two defenders that would best function as number two guys, no true bonafide #1. Then it’s a mess after that with known net losses and a bunch of maybes.

Hart is good but not there consistently yet. Whether that is an indictment of the team or him really is chicken and egg at this point—probably both true.

They need to draft high, with quantity and well to fix this.

They're building young depth, not just the NHL roster, but LHV should have a top group of prospects next year, Foerster, Wisdom, Desnoyers, Lycksell, etc.
They need one or two top end talents to fill the top 6/top 4 spots, but the 3rd pair and bottom six should be much improved

Farabee - Couts - TK
Lindblom - Hayes - Atkinson?
Cates - Frost - Tippett
Ratcliffe - Laughton - Laczynski - Allison
[Brown - Willman - Hodgson as injury replacements in LHV]

Provorov - Ellis
Sanheim - Risto
York - Attard/Zamula
Hogberg

Hart/Fedotov

 

[ajgoal]

And that's where our media continues to fail us. Why hasn't Chuckle f*** been called out on this?



He is very, and I mean VERY, stupid.

No argument here

 

[captainpaxil]

The reason being that this city loves the defensive side of sports. Look at the Eagles every year the fanbase bitches about not having a defense that is feared. Same logic applies to the Flyers and their defense.

Cavemen.

It's a collision sport. I took my kid to Disney on ice but I don't pay attention when they are in other cities.
Gustavson was a talented offensive player but the ice capades crowd doesn't get locked into him the way the authentics get stereotyped.
Risto has more points than sanheim (yes time and opportunity are huge there) but people see big and want to lock him in as the next tollefson. You see the same thing with jvr who is drastically miscast as an aging power forward
I'm insulted that Fletcher gets put in the caveman grouping because he traded the two best open ice hitters we've had in years in ghost and gudas. He understands neither the game or his audience.
Don't put that stink on us. We don't like him either

 

[deadhead]

Gudas has stunk out the joint in the playoffs, he's only playing 14:59 a night as the 6th D-man, xGF 43.10, xGFrel -12.10.

JVR, other than net front on the PP, is not a power forward, like Voracek, he's a small forward in a power forward's body.

I'd be interested in seeing Risto with a HC who recognizes he's not a stay at home defensive type and is more aggressive using him on offense, where he does pinch well, has a good shot and is willing to go to the net.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Think about how awful the Flyers were this season.

They’re drafting 5th.

That should tell you why throwing away next season to tank for Bedard isn’t a reasonable “plan.”

 

[prototypical4thliner]

They're building young depth, not just the NHL roster, but LHV should have a top group of prospects next year, Foerster, Wisdom, Desnoyers, Lycksell, etc.
They need one or two top end talents to fill the top 6/top 4 spots, but the 3rd pair and bottom six should be much improved

Farabee - Couts - TK
Lindblom - Hayes - Atkinson?
Cates - Frost - Tippett
Ratcliffe - Laughton - Laczynski - Allison
[Brown - Willman - Hodgson as injury replacements in LHV]

Provorov - Ellis
Sanheim - Risto
York - Attard/Zamula
Hogberg

Hart/Fedotov

They have been adding “depth” for years. Again, the first issue is that they are missing the top talent. If they keep muddling through mediocrity, they aren’t going to get the blue chips.

 

[flyersnorth]

They really are in a position of tear down, rebuild. Our objective isn’t just to make the playoffs, but a cup, wouldn’t you agree?

Of course, the Cup is the ultimate objective. It is for every team.

Even when fully healthy and all players performing at their top level, are we really there? Do we have a roster capable of making it past the second round? I don’t think so, do you?

Do we have a Cup roster? No.

Do we have a roster capable of making it past the 2nd round? Even when fully healthy, likely not.

The team fundamentally lacks elite talent at all positions.

Agreed. They may be set in goal, especially if Fedotov turns out to be a competent NHL goalie.

But everywhere else, they need more talent.

Our three best forwards make for a top 10-15 first line in the league. After that, the depth isn’t great.

Defense, we have two defenders that would best function as number two guys, no true bonafide #1. Then it’s a mess after that with known net losses and a bunch of maybes.

Hart is good but not there consistently yet. Whether that is an indictment of the team or him really is chicken and egg at this point—probably both true.

They need to draft high, with quantity and well to fix this.

Yes, they need to make some really astute changes and improvements. I personally don't believe Fletcher can make "astute" improvements, but it's a reality we can't change.

What I will say, though, is that rarely does a team go from not being a contender to Conference or SC final. It happens, but usually teams go through a few years (or sometimes decades) of playoff failures before finding the right combination of things to reach the CF/SCF.

That's how you test and evaluate what you have - through playoff failures.

I see it as an iterative process. And this team is already at the "bottom" and I can't see them actively trying to "bottom out" again next season.

 

[tucson83]

Think about how awful the Flyers were this season.

They’re drafting 5th.

That should tell you why throwing away next season to tank for Bedard isn’t a reasonable “plan.”

and the devils are picking 2, they werent the worst team.

 

[Lindberg]

Think about how awful the Flyers were this season.

They’re drafting 5th.

That should tell you why throwing away next season to tank for Bedard isn’t a reasonable “plan.”

You're completely glossing over everything that's reasonable there.

It's not just simply Bedard or nothing. The best players are found at the top of the draft, it doesn't just start at #1 OA and end at #1 OA. I've seen people say the 2023 draft has three players who could go #1 OA this year and the Flyers need some high end players.

You really think the Flyers roster is actually good enough to be competitive?

 

[deadhead]

If you fixed the special teams, this would be a .500 team, they were that bad this past season.
36 goals for, 68 against.
The goalies were also below average, .894 Sv% v league average .902.

Lots of injuries and lots of young players auditioning.
A good HC can turn this around quickly - which is the danger of a short-term approach - one or two "win now" moves could get them back in the playoffs but leave them in the same limbo they've been in for the last decade.

Which is why I'm rooting for a development HC and a 2-3 year "reload," play the kids next year, draft around #10 in 2023, then 2 1st rd picks in 2024 let's you assess what you have and make a move if you're ready.

 

[Lindberg]

If you fixed the special teams, this would be a .500 team, they were that bad this past season.
36 goals for, 68 against.
The goalies were also below average, .894 Sv% v league average .902.

Lots of injuries and lots of young players auditioning.
A good HC can turn this around quickly - which is the danger of a short-term approach - one or two "win now" moves could get them back in the playoffs but leave them in the same limbo they've been in for the last decade.

Which is why I'm rooting for a development HC and a 2-3 year "reload," play the kids next year, draft around #10 in 2023, then 2 1st rd picks in 2024 let's you assess what you have and make a move if you're ready.

The Flyers traded Giroux, Ghost, and Voracek. That needs to sink into your brain. Farabee, Konency, Couturier, York and whoever isn't replacing that on the power play.

The goalies are below average because the defense is awful from a lack of offense. I'm still ok with trading Voracek for Atkinson but the performance this year isn't some outlier. It's the cold reality that this club sucks.

You're delusional if you think a good HC can quickly turn this around. You spent years beating the drum that coaching doesn't matter.

Another 2-3 years. How many years back do we need to go to see you repeat this mantra over and over?

Couturier had pretty major surgery this year, there's some likelihood he'll be a shell of a player that he was.

 

[deadhead]

The Flyers traded Giroux, Ghost, and Voracek. That needs to sink into your brain. Farabee, Konency, Couturier, York and whoever isn't replacing that on the power play.

The goalies are below average because the defense is awful from a lack of offense. I'm still ok with trading Voracek for Atkinson but the performance this year isn't some outlier. It's the cold reality that this club sucks.

You're delusional if you think a good HC can quickly turn this around. You spent years beating the drum that coaching doesn't matter.

Another 2-3 years. How many years back do we need to go to see you repeat this mantra over and over?

Couturier had pretty major surgery this year, there's some likelihood he'll be a shell of a player that he was.

Ghost, Giroux and Voracek aren't replacing their younger selves either.

The defense was awful, but not because of lack of offense, but lack of talent (the third pair was awful) and structure (forwards consistently left D-men on an island).

2018-19: xGF 7.61/60 (3)
2019-20: xGF 6.02/60 (24)
2020-21: xGF 6.23/60 (17)
2021-22: xGF 6.73/60 (21) - last 20 games, 7.35/60
CBJ 5.99
Zona 5.88

At some point it's time to move on.
Therrien certainly was a problem, but so was age.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You're completely glossing over everything that's reasonable there.

It's not just simply Bedard or nothing. The best players are found at the top of the draft, it doesn't just start at #1 OA and end at #1 OA. I've seen people say the 2023 draft has three players who could go #1 OA this year and the Flyers need some high end players.

You really think the Flyers roster is actually good enough to be competitive?

JVR? Patrick? Luke Schenn? Yakupov? Hell, Provorov?

Odds are you aren’t getting a superhero who is going to save your franchise. Even Eichel didn’t get Buffalo to the playoffs. So you’re just throwing out an unwatchable product while the good players you have get another year older. And the young players get further poisoned into a losing environment.

You try your best to win & put out a watchable product. If it hits the fan like this year, then you take your 5th overall pick & hope to make it count. But you don’t intentionally throw away an entire season as a strategy.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

The Flyers are going to be unwatchable product regardless of whether they're intentionally tanking or unintentionally. There are no moves that can be made to make this team competitive after what has been done over recent years. All that is left is to bottom out whether it be on purpose or not.

 

[Lindberg]

JVR? Patrick? Luke Schenn? Yakupov? Hell, Provorov?

Odds are you aren’t getting a superhero who is going to save your franchise. Even Eichel didn’t get Buffalo to the playoffs. So you’re just throwing out an unwatchable product while the good players you have get another year older. And the young players get further poisoned into a losing environment.

You try your best to win & put out a watchable product. If it hits the fan like this year, then you take your 5th overall pick & hope to make it count. But you don’t intentionally throw away an entire season as a strategy.

Nolan Patrick? Look at the next 3 players who went after him. Then look at the rest of that top 10.

What caused Pittsburgh or the Blackhawks to win 3 cups? I'll answer for you Crosby/Malkin and Kane/Toews. The Lightning even have a #1 OA and a #2 OA. The Kings plucked Drew Doughty at #2. Alex Pietroangelo went right before Luke Schenn.

I don't even know what your arguing with that players. Are you saying there's guys that don't live up to draft status? No shit Sherlock Holmes.

 

[Lindberg]

Ghost, Giroux and Voracek aren't replacing their younger selves either.

The defense was awful, but not because of lack of offense, but lack of talent (the third pair was awful) and structure (forwards consistently left D-men on an island).

2018-19: xGF 7.61/60 (3)
2019-20: xGF 6.02/60 (24)
2020-21: xGF 6.23/60 (17)
2021-22: xGF 6.73/60 (21) - last 20 games, 7.35/60
CBJ 5.99
Zona 5.88

At some point it's time to move on.
Therrien certainly was a problem, but so was age.

It's a lot easier to play defense when you're leading a game. It's also a lot easier to play defense when the puck is on a stick of your teams. Hard to get scored on when the puck is in the offensive zone.

I'm glad you're able to use random statistics to try and justify a point but the reality is when looking across the NHL the Flyers aren't anywhere close to being playoff contenders.

 

[Rebels57]

Nolan Patrick? Look at the next 3 players who went after him. Then look at the rest of that top 10.

What caused Pittsburgh or the Blackhawks to win 3 cups? I'll answer for you Crosby/Malkin and Kane/Toews. The Lightning even have a #1 OA and a #2 OA. The Kings plucked Drew Doughty at #2. Alex Pietroangelo went right before Luke Schenn.

I don't even know what your arguing with that players. Are you saying there's guys that don't live up to draft status? No shit Sherlock Holmes.

Fleury/Makin/Crosby/Staal ..all taken either 1st or 2nd overall..in 4 consecutive drafts. Plus Letang in the 3rd

Lets not forget Tampa either.

Stamkos 1st overall in 2008 followed by Hedman 2nd overall in 2009. Vasilevskiy with their 1st in 2012. They also turned 2013 3rd overall pick Drouin into Sergachev.

 

[Lindberg]

Fleury/Makin/Crosby/Staal ..all taken either 1st or 2nd overall..in 4 consecutive drafts. Plus Letang in the 3rd

Lets not forget Tampa either.

Stamkos 1st overall in 2008 followed by Hedman 2nd overall in 2009. Vasilevskiy with their 1st in 2012. They also turned 2013 3rd overall pick Drouin into Sergachev.

The Boston Bruins are an outlier in the cup winners from the past ~15 years. Perhaps if they didn't whiff the 2015 NHL draft but that's a what if. Imagine Kyle Connor, Mat Barzal, and Thomas Chabot on that roster. Whew.

Still you don't build a team around a statistical outlier.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Don’t forget those lucky ass Avs and Joe Sakic who have MacKinnon #1, Landeskog #2, and Makar #4 among others...

Traded away Duchene #2.

Just another argument attempting to have cake and eat it too.

Does tanking guarantee anything? No but this team is tanking whether it’s intentional or not.

 

[deadhead]

It's a lot easier to play defense when you're leading a game. It's also a lot easier to play defense when the puck is on a stick of your teams. Hard to get scored on when the puck is in the offensive zone.

I'm glad you're able to use random statistics to try and justify a point but the reality is when looking across the NHL the Flyers aren't anywhere close to being playoff contenders.

And Carolina missed the playoffs 4 straight years under Peters and looked like crap.
They then traded 2 top ten picks (Lindholm and Hanifin) for Hamilton, and let him walk without compensation.
So of course, they put up 116 points this season.
Only three players drafted in the 1st rd by Carolina on the team, Svechnikov (2), Necas (12), Jarvis (13).

 

[Larry44]

The Flyers traded Giroux, Ghost, and Voracek. That needs to sink into your brain. Farabee, Konency, Couturier, York and whoever isn't replacing that on the power play.

The goalies are below average because the defense is awful from a lack of offense. I'm still ok with trading Voracek for Atkinson but the performance this year isn't some outlier. It's the cold reality that this club sucks.

You're delusional if you think a good HC can quickly turn this around. You spent years beating the drum that coaching doesn't matter.

Another 2-3 years. How many years back do we need to go to see you repeat this mantra over and over?

Couturier had pretty major surgery this year, there's some likelihood he'll be a shell of a player that he was.

Traded away Giroux, Ghost and Voracek with minimal return on balance. Risto's contract makes it a net loss.

Watching the playoffs I love seeing Raffl on the Dallas PP, Gudas playing great for the Cats, NAK playing well for Colorado, Bellemare still playing a checking role for the Bolts.

They let a lot of good players go to make room for schmucks like Hayes, JVR and Risto. And they wonder why the team stinks?

They need to fire Fletcher and let the new GM pick his coach. I know it's not going to happen until after next season, but we can always hope. 2022-23 is going to be a write off. #FireFletcherNOW #TankHard4Bedard