Confirmed with Link: The new coach of the Philadelphia Flyers is John Tortorella

[deadhead]

2. So, if drafting players is a poor strategy, then how should a team acquire players? free agents? hoping you ripoff a few teams in trades? hope a few teams waive some good players?

Actually, yes. Though ripping off teams in trade is a long-shot proposition, those trades are few and far between. Ottowa only makes one of those deals every other year.

However, taking advantage of teams competing for the Cup (or deluding themselves into thinking they're contenders) is a viable strategy, as long as you're realistic about the value of 1st rd picks in the 20s. Picking off RFAs from cap strap teams, picking up players on waivers or off the street (Verhaege, Nichushkin, etc.), college free agents, etc.

Even those top teams usually only have 2-3 high draft picks, they also find some top players by other means, late 1st and 2nd rd picks they develop, underachieving young players that contending teams lose patience with, etc.,

Drafting isn't enough unless you're well above average after the first 40 or so, because success in the top 40, as Jo Jo pointed out, is stochastic, similar to financial analysts and investment bankers, the illusion of superiority rarely holds up in a large sample. However, some teams do seem to find players later in the draft at a significantly higher rate than other teams - probably because there's less available information so investing in scouting skill pays larger dividends.

 

[Magua]

Bill is always so succinct describing exactly how we feel here.

 

[freakydallas13]

Maybe those who are crowing for the Flyers to commit to a full draft-based rebuild could acknowledge that’s exactly what they did for a half-decade under Hextall and the results sucked.

Fans were mad at the Hayes signing, they don’t want any UFAs this summer, they want to go back to the failed Hextall plan of focusing almost entirely on the draft. With zero acknowledgment that you’re more likely to end up a terrible team for a long time than draft yourself into a powerhouse. And further destroy your attendance & fanbase in the process.

Bruh we have been even worse under Fletcher. The team is currently the 4th worst team in the leauge.

 

[deadhead]

Bruh we have been even worse under Fletcher. The team is currently the 4th worst team in the leauge.

I'll bet you the same team won't be one of the ten worst next season.
Even without any FA additions, they will at least be respectable with the arrow pointing up.
Torts will get a number of players to improve, or they'll be gone and their PT given to players who do step up.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I’m not anti-drafting. I’m anti not trying to compete. There’s nothing entertaining about putting all your eggs in the draft & praying you get lucky.

Fletcher has done exactly what you wanted, and shopped the team into the trash can as a result while sacrificing the future. They have no means to compete, and no means to make themselves competitive.

Are you sure he's done a good job?

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Maybe those who are crowing for the Flyers to commit to a full draft-based rebuild could acknowledge that’s exactly what they did for a half-decade under Hextall and the results sucked.

Fans were mad at the Hayes signing, they don’t want any UFAs this summer, they want to go back to the failed Hextall plan of focusing almost entirely on the draft. With zero acknowledgment that you’re more likely to end up a terrible team for a long time than draft yourself into a powerhouse. And further destroy your attendance & fanbase in the process.

No we want smart signings, giving Hayes 7 years at over 7 million was a horrible idea from the start, smart signings like ninchuskin to the avs for 2.5 million for a couple years, that's considered smart, long term and money for a guy who flirts between 3rd line and low level 2nd line is a horrible idea, nobody is saying nothing but picks, what we don't want is trades like the risto deal, that was terrible then, and the extension makes it way worse, that's what we don't want

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'll bet you the same team won't be one of the ten worst next season.
Even without any FA additions, they will at least be respectable with the arrow pointing up.
Torts will get a number of players to improve, or they'll be gone and their PT given to players who do step up.

They were the 31st ranked offense and they just hired a coach who has stated that he hopes Fletcher hires some strong assistants who can handle the offense for him, since that's not his thing.

Fletcher's track record with hiring coaches here is brutally bad.

There are no good omens.

Maybe those who are crowing for the Flyers to commit to a full draft-based rebuild could acknowledge that’s exactly what they did for a half-decade under Hextall and the results sucked.

Fans were mad at the Hayes signing, they don’t want any UFAs this summer, they want to go back to the failed Hextall plan of focusing almost entirely on the draft. With zero acknowledgment that you’re more likely to end up a terrible team for a long time than draft yourself into a powerhouse. And further destroy your attendance & fanbase in the process.

The results didn't suck because of the strategy, they sucked because of the execution. In particular, a failed development process that Fletcher and Flahr doubled down on.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Actually, yes. Though ripping off teams in trade is a long-shot proposition, those trades are few and far between. Ottowa only makes one of those deals every other year.

However, taking advantage of teams competing for the Cup (or deluding themselves into thinking they're contenders) is a viable strategy, as long as you're realistic about the value of 1st rd picks in the 20s. Picking off RFAs from cap strap teams, picking up players on waivers or off the street (Verhaege, Nichushkin, etc.), college free agents, etc.

Even those top teams usually only have 2-3 high draft picks, they also find some top players by other means, late 1st and 2nd rd picks they develop, underachieving young players that contending teams lose patience with, etc.,

Drafting isn't enough unless you're well above average after the first 40 or so, because success in the top 40, as Jo Jo pointed out, is stochastic, similar to financial analysts and investment bankers, the illusion of superiority rarely holds up in a large sample. However, some teams do seem to find players later in the draft at a significantly higher rate than other teams - probably because there's less available information so investing in scouting skill pays larger dividends.

dont forget chuckles hasnt won a single trade in his career, so making fun of Ottawa isn't the best thing for us when they're currently better than we are

 

[pooch]

Maybe those who are crowing for the Flyers to commit to a full draft-based rebuild could acknowledge that’s exactly what they did for a half-decade under Hextall and the results sucked.

Fans were mad at the Hayes signing, they don’t want any UFAs this summer, they want to go back to the failed Hextall plan of focusing almost entirely on the draft. With zero acknowledgment that you’re more likely to end up a terrible team for a long time than draft yourself into a powerhouse. And further destroy your attendance & fanbase in the process.

I disagree with your premise because I think they half-assed the rebuild under Hextall. They did not fully commit. They lucked into one top 5 pick and had one other top 10 pick. That is not a rebuild.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I disagree with your premise because I think they half-assed the rebuild under Hextall. They did not fully commit. They lucked into one top 5 pick and had one other top 10 pick. That is not a rebuild.

Right. All they committed to was actually using their picks instead of trading them all off. And they didn't even do it for that long, or go all-in to maximize drafting volume. Then they trashed their development, before returning to their old practices with Fletcher.

They ever so barely tried to be a modern team before flipping out and going back to doing things Clarke's way.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

That Couturier contract was such nonsense, by a desperate team.

Ridden hard, and put away wet. They learned nothing from the decade with Giroux - and are going to try to copy it with Coots.

He was ripe for a Duchene type trade, and a commitment to a deal rebuild.

Holy revisionist history…I just read through his extension thread, everyone agreed with the decision and liked the term/price

 

[Tripod]

Maybe those who are crowing for the Flyers to commit to a full draft-based rebuild could acknowledge that’s exactly what they did for a half-decade under Hextall and the results sucked.

Fans were mad at the Hayes signing, they don’t want any UFAs this summer, they want to go back to the failed Hextall plan of focusing almost entirely on the draft. With zero acknowledgment that you’re more likely to end up a terrible team for a long time than draft yourself into a powerhouse. And further destroy your attendance & fanbase in the process.

Again, Fletch has had 3.5 years to make trades and sign FA. He has added no foundation pieces via either method and the Flyers had the 4th worst record.

So how has the Fletch method worked? You know, that GM that you said is good?



Reminder:

Hextall 84 pts, 96, 88, 98 pts in 4 years while building
Fletch 82 pts, 106, 85, 61 pts in 4 years while trying to contend

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I think what more so plagued Hextall is that the pro scouting under his tenure was just as bad as it was under Homer & now Fletcher. Hextall invested less from an asset/contract standpoint than those two but he still valued similar horrible players.

He could have made it work just as Fletcher could have too but they both dropped the ball because you can count your hand the amount of noteworthy positive outside additions at the pro level each made.

 

[DancingPanther]

My new nickname for this guy is probably going to be Jorts, btw

 

[deadhead]

Again, Fletch has had 3.5 years to make trades and sign FA. He has added no foundation pieces via either method and the Flyers had the 4th worst record.

So how has the Fletch method worked? You know, that GM that you said is good?



Reminder:

Hextall 84 pts, 96, 88, 98 pts in 4 years while building
Fletch 82 pts, 106, 85, 61 pts in 4 years while trying to contend

Now that's cheating, Hextall was the GM to start that 82 point season, Fletcher was only on board for the fire sale.

 

[deadhead]

I think what more so plagued Hextall is that the pro scouting under his tenure was just as bad as it was under Homer & now Fletcher. Hextall invested less from an asset/contract standpoint than those two but he still valued similar horrible players.

He could have made it work just as Fletcher could have too but they both dropped the ball because you can count your hand the amount of noteworthy positive outside additions at the pro level each made.

The problem isn't moves like Hayes, he was the market price pre-COVID, it was the inability for a decade, starting with Homer, to find ANY value acquisitions. PEB might be it.

One thing to remember about Torts, he got Gagner to put up 50 points in a part-time role. He can get blood from a rock!
But that is a cheap way to add assets, find guys with upside that you think you can coach up.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

They were the 31st ranked offense and they just hired a coach who has stated that he hopes Fletcher hires some strong assistants who can handle the offense for him, since that's not his thing.

Fletcher's track record with hiring coaches here is brutally bad.

There are no good omens.



The results didn't suck because of the strategy, they sucked because of the execution. In particular, a failed development process that Fletcher and Flahr doubled down on.

Didn’t he ask for a PP coach? Not a Torts fan but there is nothing wrong with the request. Has he had a steady PP in his other stops?
I would not mind just average special teams. Because that is a hellava lot better then what we have watched the last how many years.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The problem isn't moves like Hayes, he was the market price pre-COVID, it was the inability for a decade, starting with Homer, to find ANY value acquisitions. PEB might be it.

One thing to remember about Torts, he got Gagner to put up 50 points in a part-time role. He can get blood from a rock!
But that is a cheap way to add assets, find guys with upside that you think you can coach up.

PEB, Read, Raffl, Bobrovsky. Who has Fletcher found?

It was 81 games playing about 14 minutes a night. That isn't "part-time." Nor is it out of line with his prior seasons. The idea that he squeezes offensive production out of players is laughable, everyone knows he doesn't. Tortorella knows he doesn't, hence why he hopes Fletcher will hire him an assistant to handle that; which is a special breed of joke all its own.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

I am just going to get out in front of this hire ...

FIRE TORTORELLA!

you forgot rehire Hak... then FIRE Hak sameday...

 

[Beef Invictus]

Didn’t he ask for a PP coach? Not a Torts fan but there is nothing wrong with the request. Has he had a steady PP in his other stops?
I would not mind just average special teams. Because that is a hellava lot better then what we have watched the last how many years.

A coach to help with offense in general, wasn't it?

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

A coach to help with offense in general, wasn't it?

I did not watch the presser. I just thought that was mentioned in the clips from it that people mentioned.

 

[BillDineen]

Torts interview with Marek, he mentioned locker room issues. Also mentioned Seeler fighting was brought up in the interview process

 

[Beef Invictus]

Torts interview with Marek, he mentioned locker room issues. Also mentioned Seeler fighting was brought up in the interview process

Dude will be on the roster.

 

[Magua]

How could there be locker room issues when Fletcher changed the entire culture and core to his liking? Makes zero sense.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

How could there be locker room issues when Fletcher changed the entire culture and core to his liking? Makes zero sense.

It’s almost like when put together a bad team & get bad results you also get unhappy employees.