The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah, it is about the Cup. Losing in the playoffs is losing in the playoffs.

Some teams just enjoy disappointing their fans from a higher spot ... losing in the finals has to be feel worse than crapping out after 7 games in the 1st.

Hard for me to say as I'm not sure what losing in the finals feels like. What I think though is that while losing always hurts, it matters less what round you lost in than how your team played. If we fought hard, did the best we could and left it all out there on the ice, then I can be proud of the team win or lose no matter what else. If however we underachieved, played worse then we did before, lost to what seemed like an inferior team for no good reason and looked like we didn't care in deciding games (like the last two seasons) then losing is just embarrassing.

 

[sparxx87]

No one that I listed?

Incorrect. Steve Yzerman was on there, listed for Detroit.

People see the TD on Brisbois but we all watched Yzerman drive them down to the one yard line for a punch in.

Dubas was in the red zone and it’s been no gain or loss of yards every year. It’ll be interesting to see how he plays his 4th down, goal to go.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Incorrect. Steve Yzerman was on there, listed for Detroit.

People see the TD on Brisbois but we all watched Yzerman drive them down to the one yard line for a punch in.

Dubas was in the red zone and it’s been no gain or loss of yards every year. It’ll be interesting to see how he plays his 4th down, goal to go.

Pretty sure I saw a false start in there someone for a loss of 5 yards.

Anyway, I'm just gonna repeat: one goal, one puck bouncing the other way, one less blueline gaffe or one less puck over the glass and here's an entirely different discussion in this thread with the vast majority of the detractors likely satisfied with Dubas after a decent playoff run. Like literally any one of those things happening would have closed out the series. Not could have, *would* have. How can anyone blame Dubas for this?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Pretty sure I saw a false start in there someone for a loss of 5 yards.

Anyway, I'm just gonna repeat: one goal, one puck bouncing the other way, one less blueline gaffe or one less puck over the glass and here's an entirely different discussion in this thread with the vast majority of the detractors likely satisfied with Dubas after a decent playoff run. Like literally any one of those things happening would have closed out the series. Not could have, *would* have. How can anyone blame Dubas for this?

Strongly disagree. Squeaking past MTL wouldn't be anywhere close to a decent playoff run. Since when is winning one round even "a run"?

Where I set the bar is easily handling MTL and whoever in the 2nd round, as expected and then either winning in the 3rd round, or at the very least, playing our hearts out and leaving it all out there as it were in round three. We fell waaaaaaaaay below those expectations so you tell me, was I setting the bar too high? Was it really your view going in that if we win one playoff round, that that would for you, constitute a "decent playoff run"?

 

[egd27]

I don't care much about winning the division one way other. That said, let's not pretend there's not a huge asterix next to that division title. Other than us, there wasn't one top 10 team in the division so it would have been an enormous failure to not win it. Also, much more important than winning the division is winning it in the playoffs, we failed to do that and that absolutely was an enormous failure.

Winning the division this past season reminds me of.....

 

[hotpaws]

Pretty sure I saw a false start in there someone for a loss of 5 yards.

Anyway, I'm just gonna repeat: one goal, one puck bouncing the other way, one less blueline gaffe or one less puck over the glass and here's an entirely different discussion in this thread with the vast majority of the detractors likely satisfied with Dubas after a decent playoff run. Like literally any one of those things happening would have closed out the series. Not could have, *would* have. How can anyone blame Dubas for this?

and one bounce the other way in game 7 against T-Bay and Lou and the Islanders are hoisting the cup

so I have no idea what point your trying to make other than we were a coin flip away from advancing past a team few even believe will make the playoffs this year and using that as an example of Dubies competence

 

[ULF_55]

Don't worry folks, I'm sure Dubas' internal data shows that Kyle Dubas should actually be #1 on that list.

Do you really believe that?
It is quite common today for people to ignore science if it fits their position, they do it even if it costs them their lives, but Dubas doesn't come across that way to me.
My guess, I don't know that man personally, is he is quite aware of the truth, and while he inherited quite a bit of talent, his own selected talent has yet to get out of the training stables.
This past season, he tried to add the missing ingredients, but they came up lame, and the talent he inherited showed no heart.
Contracts really have no bearing on heart.
This off-season I'd say he pursued complementary pieces for the most part.
Previous years, he worked on upgrading the defense, with Barry being a square peg, Brodie looks like a round peg for the round hole. Brodie is who he wanted in the first place but a NTC got in the way.
Kampf, Ritchie, Bunting, Gabriel are not small pretty boys oozing with skill, they were targeted to fill roles.
And he didn't overpay for any of them.

My guess Dubas is quite aware of where he ranks in the business.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Incorrect. Steve Yzerman was on there, listed for Detroit.

People see the TD on Brisbois but we all watched Yzerman drive them down to the one yard line for a punch in.

Dubas was in the red zone and it’s been no gain or loss of yards every year. It’ll be interesting to see how he plays his 4th down, goal to go.

I think this is a pretty good analogy. He took over a very good team that's basically flatlined since he took over. Still a good regular season team, still can't win in the playoffs, the only difference is that we're losing in the playoffs to weaker opponents, much weaker even.

I think there's lots to like about Dubas. He's made some mistakes but he's done some good things too and the team has looked pretty good on paper and in the regular season. But sooner or later, the results have to be there or you have to start asking if the team is really as good as it looks on paper.

The Zekes and Dekes of this world will talk about record pace under Keefe and so on but even that has a giant asterix next to it since most of that comes in this Frankenstein division we played in and the bottom line is, you gotta win in the playoffs or it doesn't mean squat.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Strongly disagree. Squeaking past MTL wouldn't be anywhere close to a decent playoff run. Since when is winning one round even "a run"?

It could have easily been done in 5 games. That's hardly squeaking by.

Where I set the bar is easily handling MTL and whoever in the 2nd round, as expected and then either winning in the 3rd round, or at the very least, playing our hearts out and leaving it all out there as it were in round three. We fell waaaaaaaaay below those expectations so you tell me, was I setting the bar too high? Was it really your view going in that if we win one playoff round, that that would for you, constitute a "decent playoff run"?

We would have been favoured against Winnipeg and Montreal showed Vegas was very beatable this year. Would a finals appearance be enough to give Dubas a little credit? Because, again, one less unlucky break and that's quite easily what we could be talking about right now.

I'm not even a Dubas fan BTW, I just know he's problems aren't what is killing this team.

 

[sparxx87]

Pretty sure I saw a false start in there someone for a loss of 5 yards.

Anyway, I'm just gonna repeat: one goal, one puck bouncing the other way, one less blueline gaffe or one less puck over the glass and here's an entirely different discussion in this thread with the vast majority of the detractors likely satisfied with Dubas after a decent playoff run. Like literally any one of those things happening would have closed out the series. Not could have, *would* have. How can anyone blame Dubas for this?

That’s how the world works. When an organization fails, the responsibility falls on the decision maker. This isn’t unique to pro sports, this is pretty universal.

People blame Dubas for structuring a team with no margin for error, and one that isn’t really built to thrive in a playoff atmosphere. It’s disappointing to some because with the talent he inherited, most expected the Leafs to have done more in the post season by now… They not only haven’t, but they’ve managed to lose in spectacular and humiliating fashion.

 

[cannucky]

I mean....aren't unfounded rumours iron-clad reasons to call to fire someone and call them a A........ in a thread title?

The thread title itself spells out everything anyone needs to know.

I wasn't calling him anything it was a fill in the blank A but some people read it the way that fits their feelings .Hmmm who exactly has the agenda .

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

and one bounce the other way in game 7 against T-Bay and Lou and the Islanders are hoisting the cup

so I have no idea what point your trying to make other than we were a coin flip away from advancing past a team few even believe will make the playoffs this year and using that as an example of Dubies competence

I never used it as an example of Dubas' competence. I'm pointing out the wild swing in opinion I believe would occur had one tiny little change have happened in the series.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

That’s how the world works. When an organization fails, the responsibility falls on the decision maker. This isn’t unique to pro sports, this is pretty universal.

People blame Dubas for structuring a team with no margin for error, and one that isn’t really built to thrive in a playoff atmosphere. It’s disappointing to some because with the talent he inherited, most expected the Leafs to have done more in the post season by now… They not only haven’t, but they’ve managed to lose in spectacular and humiliating fashion.

But they did thrive, right up until game 5 when Montreal made adjustments and we didn't. If you want to blame Dubas for hiring a poor coach, I agree.

 

[ULF_55]

Hard for me to say as I'm not sure what losing in the finals feels like. What I think though is that while losing always hurts, it matters less what round you lost in than how your team played. If we fought hard, did the best we could and left it all out there on the ice, then I can be proud of the team win or lose no matter what else. If however we underachieved, played worse then we did before, lost to what seemed like an inferior team for no good reason and looked like we didn't care in deciding games (like the last two seasons) then losing is just embarrassing.

Don't disagree, the mirage season.
I'm really interested to see how they react this season.
They have to show they want to play in Toronto.

 

[Bomber0104]

Do you really believe that?
It is quite common today for people to ignore science if it fits their position, they do it even if it costs them their lives, but Dubas doesn't come across that way to me.
My guess, I don't know that man personally, is he is quite aware of the truth, and while he inherited quite a bit of talent, his own selected talent has yet to get out of the training stables.
This past season, he tried to add the missing ingredients, but they came up lame, and the talent he inherited showed no heart.
Contracts really have no bearing on heart.
This off-season I'd say he pursued complementary pieces for the most part.
Previous years, he worked on upgrading the defense, with Barry being a square peg, Brodie looks like a round peg for the round hole. Brodie is who he wanted in the first place but a NTC got in the way.
Kampf, Ritchie, Bunting, Gabriel are not small pretty boys oozing with skill, they were targeted to fill roles.
And he didn't overpay for any of them.

My guess Dubas is quite aware of where he ranks in the business.

I'm sure he's well more aware of his own weaknesses, blind-spots, and limitations as a manager, now...

To the fanbase's detriment he probably wasn't when he first took on the job.

 

[hotpaws]

I never used it as an example of Dubas' competence. I'm pointing out the wild swing in opinion I believe would occur had one tiny little change have happened in the series.

What you left out was it shouldn’t have come down “one tiny change” .

and that’s his 3rd first rd exit in a row and 2nd against a team we should have beaten

 

[ULF_55]

Strongly disagree. Squeaking past MTL wouldn't be anywhere close to a decent playoff run. Since when is winning one round even "a run"?

Where I set the bar is easily handling MTL and whoever in the 2nd round, as expected and then either winning in the 3rd round, or at the very least, playing our hearts out and leaving it all out there as it were in round three. We fell waaaaaaaaay below those expectations so you tell me, was I setting the bar too high? Was it really your view going in that if we win one playoff round, that that would for you, constitute a "decent playoff run"?

Only issue with losing in the later rounds and claiming it shows the team is better, is who the competition is to get there.
A team can get hot, beat a contender in the 1st. round and then fall in subsequent rounds to lessor teams.
But definitely, franchises normally feast on playoff revenue!

 

[ULF_55]

What you left out was it shouldn’t have come down “one tiny change” .

and that’s his 3rd first rd exit in a row and 2nd against a team we should have beaten

Yeah, the franchises supposed best players utterly failed.
That is a huge issue, not of Dubas making though as he inherited them can take no credit for them.
Credit for those players comes from Burke and Nonis, who never built a good foundation for going forward, but did create the opportunity for high first round picks.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

What you left out was it shouldn’t have come down “one tiny change” .

and that’s his 3rd first rd exit in a row and 2nd against a team we should have beaten

Agreed, Keefe really sucked in these last two series'.

 

[hotpaws]

Agreed, Keefe really sucked in these last two series'.

and I guess that’s also not on Dubie even though he hired him

 

[sparxx87]

But they did thrive, right up until game 5 when Montreal made adjustments and we didn't. If you want to blame Dubas for hiring a poor coach, I agree.

But it’s a 7 game series? Montréal elevated their game and found a way to win in crunch time… 3 straight games.

I think it’s better to evaluate the match in the back half of a series once teams have already seen the other and are able to make adjustments and better prepare. The teams that win the balance are usually the better team IMO.

If we have a 7 lap race, I wouldn’t really feel good about leading the first 4 if you came back to pass and beat me for laps 5, 6, and 7… especially if this was a preliminary heat with still 3 more potential races after this.

 

[hotpaws]

Yeah, the franchises supposed best players utterly failed.
That is a huge issue, not of Dubas making though as he inherited them can take no credit for them.
Credit for those players comes from Burke and Nonis, who never built a good foundation for going forward, but did create the opportunity for high first round picks.

and lucky for us Dubie wasn’t the GM when we drafted those players because judging by his track record he would have traded those picks

 

[zeke]

Love the list of the old boys club patting themselves on the back.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Average GM tenure is 5.5 years and most of those guys did rebuilds.

According to what, exactly? Perhaps you would be able to provide the requested example then? Nobody else has been able to.

 

[zeke]

That’s how the world works. When an organization fails, the responsibility falls on the decision maker. This isn’t unique to pro sports, this is pretty universal.

People blame Dubas for structuring a team with no margin for error, and one that isn’t really built to thrive in a playoff atmosphere. It’s disappointing to some because with the talent he inherited, most expected the Leafs to have done more in the post season by now… They not only haven’t, but they’ve managed to lose in spectacular and humiliating fashion.

Dubas gets justified heat because his team has failed in the first round just like Lou's leafs did. Period.

And it's true, there's no way around that.

But as far as "no margin for error" or "thrive in playoffs atmosphere", that's just pre-judged narrative that let's you pat yourself on the back regardless of what the reasons actually were.