The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[Stephen]

If anything, Canadian team management decisions over the last 3 decades are a clear lesson on what NOT to do.

Reactionary regime change isn't always the answer. I'm not a massive Dubas guy. I don't know if he's in danger of losing his job. But I'm not sure I would even advocate for him being fired if this upcoming season is a complete failure. Sometimes you need to build your way out of a dead end and that takes time. Sudden, dramatic management changes only satisfy short term frustration, but if you get a new manager with a mandate, the damage that can be done can take you further away from your goals than if you stay the course. Not to be read as a vote of confidence, but proceed with caution.

 

[yubbers]

Keefe is so much better than Babacock it's hilarious.

Babcock didn't improve team defense one iota his entire time here.

Keefe improved it instantly.

Hahahahaha. I don't know how you Dubas homers do it with straight face.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Hahahahaha. I don't know how you Dubas homers do it with straight face.

What do they do?

 

[Stonehands1990]

Hahahahaha. I don't know how you Dubas homers do it with straight face.

Lmao Keefe is a terrible coach. Does Zeke know who our D men were when Babcock was here compared to the D Keefe has?

 

[centipede2233]

This team had all the promise in the world, a hall of fame coach (yes he had his faults); a hall of fame gm (also had his faults ); a young core of superstar talent with current talent like jvr, kadri, bozak. And shanahan as president so he is most culpable, made one single decision which created a domino effect that saw so much promise turn into a pitfall of embarrassing moments to come. He replaced lou with wonder boy, and dubas has made one craptacular crippling decision after another. A glorious opportunity to compete for a Stanley cup shattered. This organization is a disgrace. The good thing for them, almost every other Canadian club is a disgrace to lol.
Why do you think a Canadian team hasn’t won a cup in 28 years…

 

[zeke]

Lmao Keefe is a terrible coach. Does Zeke know who our D men were when Babcock was here compared to the D Keefe has?

Keefe fixed the D instantly in year 1 - with not only the same dmen, but with all of them injured, no less.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Keefe fixed the D instantly in year 1 - with not only the same dmen, but with all of them injured, no less.

He stopped the skid the team was on. Let’s stop pretending Babcock was a monumental disaster. Franchise record in points and 3 very close playoff upsets. Now we struggle against pretty terrible teams in the playoffs. Also PK was bottom 3rd last year and PP was 16th? I haven’t checked but I don’t think Babcock ever hit that level of futility

 

[Stonehands1990]

Keefe fixed the D instantly in year 1 - with not only the same dmen, but with all of them injured, no less.

Furthermore do we think a HOF coach had bad systems or do we think the players weren’t executing?

 

[zeke]

He stopped the skid the team was on. Let’s stop pretending Babcock was a monumental disaster. Franchise record in points and 3 very close playoff upsets. Now we struggle against pretty terrible teams in the playoffs. Also PK was bottom 3rd last year and PP was 16th? I haven’t checked but I don’t think Babcock ever hit that level of futility

The Leafs were a disaster defensively every single year under Babcock. That changed instantly the day Keefe took over.

16-17 (Babs): #28 xga/60
17-18 (Babs): #24
18-19 (Babs): #25
19-20 (Babs): #28
19-20 (Keefe): #15
20-21 (Keefe): #10

 

[zeke]

Furthermore do we think a HOF coach had bad systems or do we think the players weren’t executing?

We think the coach that is out of the league had bad systems.

 

[Racer88]

Keefe fixed the D instantly in year 1 - with not only the same dmen, but with all of them injured, no less.

Did he fix it or did he just make it a little better

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Did he fix it or did he just make it a little better

Zeke will give you stats, I'll give you the results of the eye test: yes. They hardly ever got running around in their own zone like a bunch of rodeo clowns under Keefe but it was commonplace under Babcock. I will give that to Keefe. His lack of adjusting and matching in the playoffs...not so much.

 

[Racer88]

Zeke will give you stats, I'll give you the results of the eye test: yes. They hardly ever got running around in their own zone like a bunch of rodeo clowns under Keefe but it was commonplace under Babcock. I will give that to Keefe. His lack of adjusting and matching in the playoffs...not so much.

I think that’s a fair assement. My concern was his use of the word fixed. It implies a certainty finality. While I do think that the defence is certainly better there is still room for improvements. It will be interesting to see how they perform this year against some of the teams we will be facing

 

[paulhiggins]

Both Babcock and Keefe equally bad, but in different ways.

 

[Zybalto]

The Leafs were a disaster defensively every single year under Babcock. That changed instantly the day Keefe took over.

16-17 (Babs): #28 xga/60
17-18 (Babs): #24
18-19 (Babs): #25
19-20 (Babs): #28
19-20 (Keefe): #15
20-21 (Keefe): #10

Playoffs:
17-18 (Babs): #12 (out of 16)
18-19 (Babs): #15 (out of 16)
19-20 (Keefe): #11 (out of 24)
20-21 (Keefe): #1 (out of 16)

Certainly been some defensive improvement in the playoffs too.

 

[Stonehands1990]

We think the coach that is out of the league had bad systems.

And by out of the league you mean collecting his full overpayment of 5.875 per year that pretty much 0 covid cap strapped teams can pay. Is that what you meant or are you completely devoid of common sense?

 

[Zybalto]

He stopped the skid the team was on. Let’s stop pretending Babcock was a monumental disaster. Franchise record in points and 3 very close playoff upsets. Now we struggle against pretty terrible teams in the playoffs. Also PK was bottom 3rd last year and PP was 16th? I haven’t checked but I don’t think Babcock ever hit that level of futility

I'm neither in the Babcock nor Dubas camp really but think that it was certainly time to move on from Babs who anyone should admit got by with a really good Andersen to cover the teams defensive woes. (Andersen was a top tier goalie for 3 years there). Babcock was certainly part of getting rid of the bad culture around the team though and cahnging the image of the team from a complete laughing stock to a playoff laughing stock. (I can poke fun at us too. )

Columbus and the Leafs were tied in points and the Leafs badly outplayed the Jackets and goaltending was the difference (along with a key injury to Muzzin who has been the Leafs best playoff Dman by a mile since he got here)

Leafs were stupid injured (including another injury to Muzzin at the end of the series, sigh) last year and Montreal upset every team they played on their way to the final led by an unreal Carey Price playing 30 points above his regular season numbers.

PK being bottom third is directly the fault of Andersen and his near record setting PK save% (top ten lowest in the past decade and a half which is about how far I looked) Without Andersen in net, PK was top 10 (not doing the exact math here but probably around 5ish matching their Expected goals which ranked 5th in the league)

The jekyl and hyde powerplay was certainly an issue in the both the regular season and playoffs and the turnover in assistant coaches is an attempt to remedy that.

 

[FiveHoleo]

Reactionary regime change isn't always the answer. I'm not a massive Dubas guy. I don't know if he's in danger of losing his job. But I'm not sure I would even advocate for him being fired if this upcoming season is a complete failure. Sometimes you need to build your way out of a dead end and that takes time. Sudden, dramatic management changes only satisfy short term frustration, but if you get a new manager with a mandate, the damage that can be done can take you further away from your goals than if you stay the course. Not to be read as a vote of confidence, but proceed with caution.

This sounds like something Kyle Dubas would say to try and keep his job. I'm sorry but when somebody has taken the best situation in the league and turned it into one of the worst in 2 short years you have to take the keys away before he drives it completely into lake ontario. No amount of patience is going to make Dubas any better at his job. No amount of caution is going to prevent this moron from digging the hole deeper. The fact that Keefe is still coach after his deer in the headlights freeze job in the playoffs tells you everything you need to know about Dubas and his ability to make this team better. Replace him with a potato and the team is much better off because at least the potato won't trade any draft picks so it can overpay people some more.

 

[Racer88]

The thing I find concerning is that Dubas inherited a team so full of promise and so liked by the fans. We were still excited about the future and the promise of success. It is incredible how much anger is now directed at the players and management. This has become one of the most unlikable teams in a long time.
This could be the legacy of Dubas’s tenure here

 

[zeke]

The thing I find concerning is that Dubas inherited a team so full of promise and so liked by the fans. We were still excited about the future and the promise of success. It is incredible how much anger is now directed at the players and management. This has become one of the most unlikable teams in a long time.
This could be the legacy of Dubas’s tenure here

This team has even more promise than the team he inherited.

 

[Sypher04]

The team he inherited may have had more scoring depth going for it, but it also had two elite players needing to be signed coming off their ELCs as well as another very good player in same boat and dumpster fire defense...

Don't get me wrong, still an enviable position getting to start with Marner and Matthews, as well as Nylander already in tow, but there was a ton of work to be done.

I reject the notion that this team doesn't have the same promise.

The only thing that's changed is more years of not advancing has jaded the fanbase. And I'm not even saying that's entirely unfair. This team needs to put up or shut up.

 

[Trapper]

The team he inherited may have had more scoring depth going for it, but it also had two elite players needing to be signed coming off their ELCs as well as another very good player in same boat and dumpster fire defense...

Don't get me wrong, still an enviable position getting to start with Marner and Matthews, as well as Nylander already in tow, but there was a ton of work to be done.

I reject the notion that this team doesn't have the same promise.

The only thing that's changed is more years of not advancing has jaded the fanbase. And I'm not even saying that's entirely unfair. This team needs to put up or shut up.

One thing that is different is the clock ticking.
Unlike Crosby/Ovi/Keith/etc, we don’t have 10-13 year contracts. Shelf life to UFA is about 3 years and then something has to give.
JT getting older, someone can easily outbid us on a Nylander with 3 guys making double digits.
With no success post season in the least, a UFA might decide to try somewhere else.
Especially since if you think it’s jaded now, throw in another 1-2 failures.

Dubas, this team and this core will not survive the 10+ years a Washington or Detroit might have. And there is no guarantee they win sticking with the same group.

 

[zeke]

One thing that is different is the clock ticking.
Unlike Crosby/Ovi/Keith/etc, we don’t have 10-13 year contracts. Shelf life to UFA is about 3 years and then something has to give.
JT getting older, someone can easily outbid us on a Nylander with 3 guys making double digits.
With no success post season in the least, a UFA might decide to try somewhere else.
Especially since if you think it’s jaded now, throw in another 1-2 failures.

Dubas, this team and this core will not survive the 10+ years a Washington or Detroit might have. And there is no guarantee they win sticking with the same group.

It's still one of the youngest elite cores in hockey. No bad contracts to worry about. Nobody signed past productive Age years. A very nice group of prospects in system.

They are golden longterm.

 

[Trapper]

It's still one of the youngest elite cores in hockey. No bad contracts to worry about. Nobody signed past productive Age years. They are golden longterm.

Again, places like Montreal and Toronto don’t have the same luxury other cities have.
Time is not always the luxury you think you have.

You have to show something. 5 failures, with the last 2 being even more terrible than the first acceptable 3, is a downward spiral.
Throw in losing to Zamboni drivers, firing coaches, losing depth and the core is even more on the hot seat.

I know you love your stats, that’s great but if you have followed both cities I’ve mentioned, you know stats only get you so far. You must show something other than let’s just wait till they get it. People following the Leafs should know that. This isn’t Minnesota.

You know this. Another failure this year and the media/fans will crucify them.

 

[Gary Nylund]

One thing that is different is the clock ticking.
Unlike Crosby/Ovi/Keith/etc, we don’t have 10-13 year contracts. Shelf life to UFA is about 3 years and then something has to give.
JT getting older, someone can easily outbid us on a Nylander with 3 guys making double digits.
With no success post season in the least, a UFA might decide to try somewhere else.
Especially since if you think it’s jaded now, throw in another 1-2 failures.

Dubas, this team and this core will not survive the 10+ years a Washington or Detroit might have. And there is no guarantee they win sticking with the same group.

Excellent point! Something to ponder who keep saying no problem, look how long it took for OVI to figure it out. Or maybe they'll be happy if they figure out and win the cup for some other team?