The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[zeke]

One of them was used to acquire Freddy,

So trading picks is good now.

who's the only reason why the Leafs even made the playoffs in the first place.

Interesting claim - though it's true that Lou did a horrible job improving our defense.

Zaitsev is far from one of the worst contracts in hockey and we had no D, he had a good first season too. Don't give me that. The Marleau contract was a year too long. Big whoop, it was a good move at the time seeing as how he put up more than 20 goals both seasons and actually showed up in the playoffs in 2018.

Absolutely terrible contracts to terrible players, both in contention for worst in hockey.

Also a player like Matt Martin goes a long way in helping shape an identity. Lou brought us an elite culture that was just taking shape. Dubass absolutely flushed it down the toilet

So Lou made the Leafs "tougher to play against" by adding exactly one 4th line goon, who Babcock benched and waived in his 2nd season before Dubas even took over. And then Dubas flushed it by adding goons like Clifford and Simmons instead.

All that definitely makes sense.

and is the laughing stock of the league. Quit being his spokesperson and wake up and smell the coffee. Dubass is one of the most disrespectable hockey people of all time. You'll look very bad once he's fired, Zeke.

More interesting to me is what will happen to all you guys when the Leafs elite regular season success inevitably turns into playoffs success, as it almost always does.

 

[zeke]

The team isn't worse, it's plateaued. We were losing elimination game 7 in 2018 to BOS and are now losing elimination game 7 in 2021 to MTL.

You just said dubas stimulated those expectations - how does he do that by not improving the team?

The expectations obviously increased when he went after JT in the summer of 2018.

Why would they obviously increase if signing Tavares was a bad move?

Before that, there was still a slow build going forward though one which was moving away from the rebuild/growth focus to winning now. Dubas went all in with his moves of JT, big contracts, and then the Kadri deal a year later.

So Dubas' sin is adding good players and increasing expectations.

Expectations increasing and results are stagnating. This has been the case with the leafs for the past 3 years. Dubas hasn't been able to find the players/coaches who can find a way to close out a series in the opening round. When he was hired no one believed that forward 3 years into the future, the leafs would still have no series wins.

Again, why are you blaming Dubas for bad expectations?

This was the first offseason he didn't make a big move. He realized he kept on needlessly investing assets into a team which hasn't been able to deliver. The leafs team didn't booster any major upgrades and will be relying on the players to deliver. There will be a lot of pressure on the big core players for once rather than just on GM/Coach with no big-name reinforcement brought in to take the blame away (i.e, Barrie in 2020, Brodie in 2021)

Dubas upgraded on the single biggest weakness of last year's team. That is, in fact, a big move.

 

[ACC1224]

 

[ottomaddox]

Truly Dubas' play for PK Subban is an act of desperation.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Truly Dubas' play for PK Subban is an act of desperation.

Tbh if you can get him 75% retained why not

 

[Sypher04]

Truly Dubas' play for PK Subban is an act of desperation.

there’s no evidence such a play was ever made, but even if it was, your assessment is pretty bad. In a depth role, subban actually has assets that could be useful to this team. The problem is his 9 million cap hit though vs our cap, which also pretty much stomps on the idea that this is even remotely credible.

 

[hamzarocks]

You just said dubas stimulated those expectations - how does he do that by not improving the team?

Expectations = how media/fans perceive the team and their capabilities. It does not equal how good the team is in reality. It is a pretty common concept really.

Improving on paper does not always lead to improvement on the ice, which is the case with TML for the past 3 seasons of hockey. Dubas made moves he believed improved the team, the results have been a mixed bag. Good 2019 year but disappointing playoffs, bad 2020 season and terrible playoffs, amazing 2021 year, and the worse playoff series in leaf's history.


Why would they obviously increase if signing Tavares was a bad move?

Signing Tavares was a bad move when compounded by Dubas not using JT as the barometer for contract negotiations for the big 3. His signing JT, then paying the 3 guys about 4-5M more than they should be led to our cap situation looking like that of a team that is in direct win-now mode rather than a team looking to win its first playoff series in years.


So Dubas' sin is adding good players and increasing expectations.

Dubas added players who underperformed come playoffs and don't play usually as expected as fans envision during the offseason. Barrie was a disaster, Clifford sucked in his short stint here, Tavares has underwhelmed heavily in the playoffs, each of Nylander, Marner, Matthews has not delivered enough in the 3 playoff series despite Dubas betting on them and thinking they are worth a combined nearly 30M


Again, why are you blaming Dubas for bad expectations?

Dubas like I said built on these expectations. His we can and we will, and promising not to deal with Nylander along with holding Marner shows he believes the expectations are justified and that the core is worthy of the praise/hype they get and the team has been unlucky so far. Well, next season his claim has to be put to the test.

Its swink or swim time for Dubas and the leafs. He believes in the core, either they need to deliver or he needs to either cut ties with some of them and shuffle a new core piece in, or if he refuses he needs to be removed before the situation becomes unfixable.


Dubas upgraded on the single biggest weakness of last year's team. That is, in fact, a big move.

Backup goaltending wasn't our single biggest weakness. Andersen was injured and had a bad year. Mrazek isn't a good consistent goalie. He's going to have to show he can play in the leafs system which has made goalies look worse than they are in the past.

Mrazek is also a playoff poor performer, which is the excuse Dubas fans have lived by, saying that untimely and unclutch goaltending cost the leafs these past three years. Checking out Mrazek's playoff stats with the canes and you find he isn;'t a good performer himself.

Our biggest weakness was LW which has been downgraded not upgraded.

 

[Mess]

No doubt they are questioning him.

Now the clock is ticking towards midnight.

Dubas has to start showing he can draft players, he can pick coaches, and he can hold players accountable.

1. If those players he inherited can't handle the pressure of playoffs in Toronto, they have to go.
2. If that coach who won in the AHL can't handle playoffs in Toronto (NHL) he has to go.
3. If the GM can't do 1 or 2 above he has to go.

Time for Dubas to be held accountable for the core of the team and the drafts he has conducted.

In my opinion MLSE was sold on a young inexperienced GM on the premise of "If build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door".

To 'build a better mousetrap' is to make an improvement to an existing product or service. It especially refers to simple and straightforward changes that are obvious advances on earlier technology or practices to increase profit margins.

Analytics of a changing hockey world, would give an organization a competitive market advantage in team building, and then by extension more playoff success, and in turn bottom line profit $$ to the organization. Dubas was sold as a young innovative analytics guru (without experience) that was going to change Leafs path to success for the better by applying these new tools to old practices, to increase competitive advantage.

Toronto already had 2 X 1st round losses by the previous GM, before this GM change was made, and 3 years later (but now also 17 years without a 1st round win by a Leafs team in a salary cap world), while having 3 of the 5 highest paid forwards in the game hasn't move the needle forward or delivered on building a better mouse trap expectations, beyond what already existed.

I don't know the timeline for analytics to kick in and make a tangible difference in terms of team building & on ice success, but the clock must be ticking to start showing some results [advancing beyond round #1] , otherwise they were sold a bill of goods, and analytics without true old fashioned experience isn't the answer to what is holding back progress, and the grass isn't greener.

A fortune 500 company wouldn't hire an inexperienced greenhorn GM to run their organization unless he was bring something new to the table, that didn't exist prior, and would also move the organization forward. By now MLSE BOD must be saying "Show me the money".. IMO

 

[ottomaddox]

there’s no evidence such a play was ever made, but even if it was, your assessment is pretty bad. In a depth role, subban actually has assets that could be useful to this team. The problem is his 9 million cap hit though vs our cap, which also pretty much stomps on the idea that this is even remotely credible.

No. It's still desperate. Desperate has nothing to do with Subban's skill set.

 

[Stephen]

I’m not sure if the term “luck” has been tossed around in the context of playoff failures in sports culture as much as it has been in Leaf Land.

Luck implies a game or probability and sometimes the flip of the coin gives you weird outcomes, but no worries because a large enough sample size should even things out and we should be on our merry way.

This kind of thinking seems to fly in the face of the wisdom of the ages which says sometimes you don’t get that many cracks at it. The famous story of Dan Marino thinking he would have many chances at the Super Bowl after losing as a rookie. Only to never make it back.

 

[egd27]

According to what, exactly? Perhaps you would be able to provide the requested example then? Nobody else has been able to.

average tenure of nhl gm - Google Search

2nd result
The average tenure of an NHL GM is 5.5 years, less than both the MLB (5.6) and the NBA (6.6). David Poile, with 23 years of service as the GM of the Nashville Predators, has the longest active tenure of all GMs across The NHL, MLB and The NBA.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Do you not have google lmao

So should I assume I'm not going to get the requested example or the source of your claims then?

 

[ULF_55]

I’m not sure if the term “luck” has been tossed around in the context of playoff failures in sports culture as much as it has been in Leaf Land.

Luck implies a game or probability and sometimes the flip of the coin gives you weird outcomes, but no worries because a large enough sample size should even things out and we should be on our merry way.

This kind of thinking seems to fly in the face of the wisdom of the ages which says sometimes you don’t get that many cracks at it. The famous story of Dan Marino thinking he would have many chances at the Super Bowl after losing as a rookie. Only to never make it back.

Yeah, been watching since before the last Cup ... I'm sure I thought they'd win another, and now I'm not sure they will before my contract is up.

Luck does play a part, or perhaps chance is the better word. A fluke high stick, a missed call by the ref, a trip resulting in injury, ... not necessarily luck, but an event beyond control.

 

[ULF_55]

average tenure of nhl gm - Google Search

2nd result
The average tenure of an NHL GM is 5.5 years, less than both the MLB (5.6) and the NBA (6.6). David Poile, with 23 years of service as the GM of the Nashville Predators, has the longest active tenure of all GMs across The NHL, MLB and The NBA.

How many GM's in the game today won the Cup within 5.5 years and how many took more than 5.5 years?

 

[Dekes For Days]

The average tenure of an NHL GM is 5.5 years

Thank you for supporting what I said - most GMs are given more than 4 years.

 

[Twine Tickler]

You could have been named GM and the results would not have been any worse than what Dubie has produced .

it’s shocking how many people ignore the situation he walked into compared to previous GM’s

Insert any GM on the planet over the last 3 seasons, and you'd still only have Mitch Marner score only 2 goals in his last 19 playoff games.

Until this core steps up in the post season, we wont win. We can stew about the support pieces all we want, it will make sweet f*** all of a difference.

but please continue to explain to me how Dubas should not have handed the bag to this core, and how we are one 5 million dollar player away from being legitimate. Maybe mix in a trade that we should have made where Kyle's loyalty to the core got in the way of. But please not before you to tell us how bad the JT signing was, and how it has impacted all of the subsequent signings. And for sure don't call him Dubas, it's Dubass. I am not sure I've heard that angle before...

I suggest we direct our frustrations on the players themselves. The present themselves as wolves in the regular season, only to be sheep in the post season. I am really not sure of 1 GM on the planet who would not have been a buyer at the TDL when his team in the middle of the best season pts% in the franchise's 100+ year existence.

but yes, lets lash KD for overpaying and showing faith in that team. He should have obviously known they'd be bounced in R1. What an idiot.

I am fairly confident I could pull up posts of optimism from all of the haters in this thread around the TDL time. Some of which likely even said the words "I don't mind overpaying" or "this is our best shot".

Its hilarious how the fan can have that same gut feeling as KD did, and exercise a desire to improve at all costs, but then when the results don't come they can turn on the person who shared that same belief. As if they were so stupid to think that way.

makes total sense to me

 

[egd27]

How many GM's in the game today won the Cup within 5.5 years and how many took more than 5.5 years?

Google

 

[hamzarocks]

Thank you for supporting what I said - most GMs are given more than 4 years.

If dubas makes a move (deals one of Marner or Nylander) should the leafs fall in the first again, then he deserves another year to see if his changing of the core can be what is needed to build a winner.

If he sticks to his guns and stays stubborn refusing to trade any of the big 4 despite 4 consecutive failures. (Becoming the new Egocock) then he should be given his pink slip.

 

[hamzarocks]

Insert any GM on the planet over the last 3 seasons, and you'd still only have Mitch Marner score only 2 goals in his last 19 playoff games.

Until this core steps up in the post season, we wont win. We can stew about the support pieces all we want, it will make sweet f*** all of a difference.

but please continue to explain to me how Dubas should not have handed the bag to this core, and how we are one 5 million dollar player away from being legitimate. Maybe mix in a trade that we should have made where Kyle's loyalty to the core got in the way of. But please not before you to tell us how bad the JT signing was, and how it has impacted all of the subsequent signings. And for sure don't call him Dubas, it's Dubass. I am not sure I've heard that angle before...

I suggest we direct our frustrations on the players themselves. The present themselves as wolves in the regular season, only to be sheep in the post season. I am really not sure of 1 GM on the planet who would not have been a buyer at the TDL when his team in the middle of the best season pts% in the franchise's 100+ year existence.

but yes, lets lash KD for overpaying and showing faith in that team. He should have obviously known they'd be bounced in R1. What an idiot.

I am fairly confident I could pull up posts of optimism from all of the haters in this thread around the TDL time. Some of which likely even said the words "I don't mind overpaying" or "this is our best shot".

Its hilarious how the fan can have that same gut feeling as KD did, and exercise a desire to improve at all costs, but then when the results don't come they can turn on the person who shared that same belief. As if they were so stupid to think that way.

makes total sense to me

You said it yourself, the core is not getting it done, either they get it done this year, or they fail again. If they fail Dubas/Shanny need to drop the Ego accept they misjudged the capabilities of the core and make a major move.

If Dubas does that then he should get another year, if he refuses then he has to be fired. He doesn't get the best of both worlds. He can't escape blame/criticism according to the Dubas fans for not advancing the team as a result of underperforming core, all while refusing to move any of them out on a yearly basis.

 

[hotpaws]

Insert any GM on the planet over the last 3 seasons, and you'd still only have Mitch Marner score only 2 goals in his last 19 playoff games.

Until this core steps up in the post season, we wont win. We can stew about the support pieces all we want, it will make sweet f*** all of a difference.

but please continue to explain to me how Dubas should not have handed the bag to this core, and how we are one 5 million dollar player away from being legitimate. Maybe mix in a trade that we should have made where Kyle's loyalty to the core got in the way of. But please not before you to tell us how bad the JT signing was, and how it has impacted all of the subsequent signings. And for sure don't call him Dubas, it's Dubass. I am not sure I've heard that angle before...

I suggest we direct our frustrations on the players themselves. The present themselves as wolves in the regular season, only to be sheep in the post season. I am really not sure of 1 GM on the planet who would not have been a buyer at the TDL when his team in the middle of the best season pts% in the franchise's 100+ year existence.

but yes, lets lash KD for overpaying and showing faith in that team. He should have obviously known they'd be bounced in R1. What an idiot.

I am fairly confident I could pull up posts of optimism from all of the haters in this thread around the TDL time. Some of which likely even said the words "I don't mind overpaying" or "this is our best shot".

Its hilarious how the fan can have that same gut feeling as KD did, and exercise a desire to improve at all costs, but then when the results don't come they can turn on the person who shared that same belief. As if they were so stupid to think that way.

makes total sense to me

so in summary your saying it's everyone's fault but KD's , sorry my mistake . your saying it's everyone's fault but KD's and JT's and that there's no way any other person as GM could have had more success with this core he inherited

 

[hotpaws]

If dubas makes a move (deals one of Marner or Nylander) should the leafs fall in the first again, then he deserves another year to see if his changing of the core can be what is needed to build a winner.

If he sticks to his guns and stays stubborn refusing to trade any of the big 4 despite 4 consecutive failures. (Becoming the new Egocock) then he should be given his pink slip.

why would anyone trust Dubas trading Marner or Willie ?

and the only core piece to trade if the team fails again this year is Tavares who'll be 32 at the start of next season and not one of the mid 20 core players , now that's easier said then done due to his nmc/cap hit/age but that's the only move that may save this team

 

[hamzarocks]

why would anyone trust Dubas trading Marner or Willie ?

and the only core piece to trade if the team fails again this year is Tavares who'll be 32 at the start of next season and not one of the mid 20 core players , now that's easier said then done due to his nmc/cap hit/age but that's the only move that may save this team

I don't think any team would want a 32 Year old Jt making 11M atleast not at a value which let's us get a different style core piece in return

Marner or Nylandr would be the pieces which could bring back a big package that might fix whatever is wrong with the team.

The best case would be Captain JT bounces back and is a 85+ point player who is driving play for the team in the playoffs.

If all 4 of our guys can play good at once in a series we might actually win one

 

[Sypher04]

You said it yourself, the core is not getting it done, either they get it done this year, or they fail again. If they fail Dubas/Shanny need to drop the Ego accept they misjudged the capabilities of the core and make a major move.

If Dubas does that then he should get another year, if he refuses then he has to be fired. He doesn't get the best of both worlds. He can't escape blame/criticism according to the Dubas fans for not advancing the team as a result of underperforming core, all while refusing to move any of them out on a yearly basis.

Obviously there is a limit to how long you can stand behind the core when they are not getting it done. It’s just debatable when that is. I would personally tend to believe as well that this could be their last chance to prove they can do it together before changes will come

 

[Mess]

How many GM's in the game today won the Cup within 5.5 years and how many took more than 5.5 years?

Starting point and distance traveled also have to be factors in consideration for GM job performance evaluation and tenure.

If you inherit a team that was dead last overall, and then improve it by +26 points to make the playoffs in year #2, and then in year #3 of your tenure you set an 100 year old franchise best mark, despite disappointing losing in the playoffs in round #1 there is a clear starting point and distance traveled to allow for future progress to be measured that might buy someone another 2-3 years to see how this all turns out during your 5-6 years of tenure to reach the average.

If on the other hand you inherit a team that just finished #6th overall with over 100 points, with a roster full of young and promising talent and then 3 years later on the job you're still spinning your wheels and disappointingly losing in round #1, then starting point and distance traveled tells a completely different story, and your going to need some real luck and tangible measurable results to make it the average tenure of 5.5 years.

 

[Sypher04]

why would anyone trust Dubas trading Marner or Willie ?

and the only core piece to trade if the team fails again this year is Tavares who'll be 32 at the start of next season and not one of the mid 20 core players , now that's easier said then done due to his nmc/cap hit/age but that's the only move that may save this team

I don’t know maybe because most of the trades he’s made have been good ones