The Management Thread | Live, Play, Repeat Edition

[4Twenty]

can anyone else visit this alternate covid free reality or just you? asking for 7 billion friends.

The flat cap created a cheaper player market. Benning wasn’t hurt anymore than 30 other teams.

At the time of the lockdown they were fading hard and were getting injured.


It’s an empty excuse.

 

[MS]

can anyone else visit this alternate covid free reality or just you? asking for 7 billion friends.

Uh, weren't you posting an opinion on it, too?

This team was freefalling down the standings with no Markstrom and no Tanev when the pandemic hit. Sure, maybe something unexpected happens, but the most likely outcome at that point was that this team was in major trouble.

As for the flat cap, this isn't about 'alternate realities'. Benning put himself in a situation. You can't pretend that he caught a 'bad break' with the flat cap that totally screwed him over when at the same time he got a huge break in his favour on Ferland that allowed a terrible signing to disappear onto LTIR. In the end, he ended up with exactly as much space to make signings/changes in the 2020 offseason as he had originally budgeted for back in the 2019 and through 2019-20 before the pandemic hit.

 

[timw33]

It absolutely did not. It saved his job.

If the pandemic never happens, the cap goes up, and Micheal Ferland is healthy enough to be trundled around in our bottom-6, this team is in the exact same position cap-wise as they are now.

Or, with approximately $90-100MM of cap space league wide, Benning signs Hamonic for $3MM instead of $1MM, Holtby for $5MM instead of $4.3MM and its the same cap situation.

No one seems to understand the correlation between player costs relative to the available pool of cap. Yeah you have an extra $3MM of cap space, but so does every one of your 30 competitors who are making offers on the players you're trying to sign/offer sheet.

If the pandemic never happens, the Canucks probably miss the playoffs and Benning is fired. And right now Tampa Bay owns our unprotected 1st round pick.

Benning lucked out with the pandemic, but so did the team.

Think of how absolutely dire the Sharks season was last year knowing that there was no parachute of a top-5 pick. That would have been us and things would be even more bleak than they are now.

Well, ask the 50 people who got laid off by the organization - reported on Global in July - after whole staff was asked to take 20% pay cut.

Make that 49 people laid off, the maximum amount of people you can layoff without qualifying for a Group Layoff where everyone needs to be given 8 weeks severance.

Cheap pieces of ****

 

[mriswith]

In approximately 0 corporate real-world situations would the Jim Bennings of the world have 7 years to continuously shit the bed.

Why are the rules different here?

Unfortunately, the likely answer is that Benning is a puppet and FA is the guy with his hand up in there playing owner-GM.

This is why it's imperative that the next GM be someone who will tell FA to take a hike when the inevitable interference arrives.

 

[MS]

The under the radar part of the Ferland signing is they knew his contract was UNINSURABLE when they registered it but they did it anyway. This means, unlike other players, if he went on the LTIR no insurance company was going to pay the freight like they do with other players. I mean, who had a greater likelihood (probably in the whole NHL) of going on the LTIR than Ferland.

Surely this effected who they were allowed to sign this year.

It is mind boggling stuff.

The Ferland disaster signing has kind of gone off the radar of fans with his LTIR status, but you can be pretty sure Aquilini hasn't forgotten that he's paying $12 million for an uninsurable player not to play for the next 4 years.

 

[WhiteCurse]

In approximately 0 corporate real-world situations would the Jim Bennings of the world have 7 years to continuously shit the bed.

Why are the rules different here?

My experiences has shown me the type of work Jim has put in usually lets you climb the chain. Some of the craziest stuff I have seen at work comes from poor upper management

 

[mossey3535]

They need to fire Benning now before he trades what little assets we have for a d-man who will probably be the wrong guy. And won't arrive for two weeks minimum. And won't fix the fact that the defence currently has no depth.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

The Nucks need to get on the MacFarland train before the Penguins do:

Source: Avs assistant GM MacFarland considered for Penguins job

Teams eyeing Colorado Avalanche Assistant General Manager Chris MacFarland

I'm not sure about MacFarland. I appreciate the fact that he's a former lawyer and could approach things in a more logical and less nonsensical fashion than Benning would, but I recall seeing a thread where a ton of Columbus personnel (players and coaches) came over to Colorado and it was implied it was due to him.

 

[Jyrki21]

It wasn't a consequential trade, but the day for me was the Kassian & a pick for Prust trade. There were other things prior and certainly after, but trading a young player & pick for a washed veteran was the sign that the team would not be going in the direction I wanted and pro scouting was a major issue.

Heh, my reaction in this forum:

This has to be a joke, right? Benning is taking his vengeance for the way the Canucks cut him in 1989?

Why else would he make the team worse, older and more expensive?

Of course what really rubbed salt in the wound that day was they also disposed of all the non-idiots in the front office. I couldn't believe anyone would have management's back, and this is a full year before the Eriksson contract...

I hope Gilman really gave it to him on the way out. As in, pointed out that he has done nothing but asinine value destruction since he took over the team. It's ridiculous that the team has chosen religion over science to run its affairs. This is like when a coup d'état happens and the general who takes over inmediately issues a book of his wisdom or believes he's impervious to bullets or whatever. It's just obvious from a million miles away what's happening and what's going to happen, and you wonder why it's SO hard to learn from decades of experience.

 

[iceburg]

Make that 49 people laid off, the maximum amount of people you can layoff without qualifying for a Group Layoff where everyone needs to be given 8 weeks severance.

Cheap pieces of ****

Yeah, I rounded up. But I guess the distinction is significant.

 

[MS]

I'm not sure about MacFarland. I appreciate the fact that he's a former lawyer and could approach things in a more logical and less nonsensical fashion than Benning would, but I recall seeing a thread where a ton of Columbus personnel (players and coaches) came over to Colorado and it was implied it was due to him.

It doesn't look like anything too egregious on the player front. In the couple years after MacFarland arrived in Colorado they picked up Jack Skille, Cody Goluboef, and Fedor Tyutin all as UFAs or minor-league transactions. None lasted more than a year. So certainly nothing like the Weisbrod-Baertschi/Granlund situation here.

And if a new GM wants to bring some top personnel from a top NHL organization to replace some of the brain drain that's happened here over the past 5-6 years under Benning, I'm not opposed in the slightest.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The Ferland disaster signing has kind of gone off the radar of fans with his LTIR status, but you can be pretty sure Aquilini hasn't forgotten that he's paying $12 million for an uninsurable player not to play for the next 4 years.

why do you assume it was not aquaman's idea in the first place? logic dictates benning would have been fired for that crazy risky signing unless ownership had ownership of it. so you are being illogical.

not to mention, shiny new toys every year, boundary pushing, and risk taking are all hallmarks of aquaman's entire period of ownership, not just the benning period.

they are also hallmarks of decision making by rich kids enjoying life on daddy's money.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The flat cap created a cheaper player market. Benning wasn’t hurt anymore than 30 other teams.

At the time of the lockdown they were fading hard and were getting injured.


It’s an empty excuse.

the fact it hurt everyone hurts your argument not helps it. the point is that nobody could have anticipated it, so criticizing benning because he was particularly vulnerable to it, is like blaming someone for not wearing sunscreen when he got hit by a meteorite. it's petty and detracts from substantive criticism of the guy.

 

[Jyrki21]

In approximately 0 corporate real-world situations would the Jim Bennings of the world have 7 years to continuously shit the bed.

Why are the rules different here?

Because the real world doesn't have a Marxian draft system that rewards poor performance, such that CEOs can then say "look at all the new talent I brought in [by being inadvertently bad]!"

 

[MS]

why do you assume it was not aquaman's idea in the first place? logic dictates benning would have been fired for that crazy risky signing unless ownership had ownership of it. so you are being illogical.

not to mention, shiny new toys every year, boundary pushing, and risk taking are all hallmarks of aquaman's entire period of ownership, not just the benning period.

they are also hallmarks of decision making by rich kids enjoying life on daddy's money.

If you have any evidence that FA dictated the Ferland signing, I’m all ears.

Without that, I’m assuming that the signing of this player was done by the GM.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Uh, weren't you posting an opinion on it, too?

mine was expressly qualified as "wide open speculation"

yours was expressed as a certainty that unconditionally refuted mine.

there is no equivalence in the way we interacted. maybe you should take the time to express your opinions more carefully.

 

[AdvancedPressure]

At times we are seeing beer league caliber play out there. The team is bad, sure, especially with the losses they experienced this off season, but they shouldn't look this bad. I feel like every time I come home from work and turn on the TV they're down 5-6 goals in the third like it's 1986 or something. The players look demoralized.

I think we'll all look back on this most recent offseason as the beginning of the end of the Benning regime. He's had a long leash but it's time.

 

[rypper]

 

[krutovsdonut]

If you have any evidence that FA dictated the Ferland signing, I’m all ears.

Without that, I’m assuming that the signing of this player was done by the GM.

i just gave you exactly the kind of evidence you use to hang everything on benning. there is also ample evidence over the years that aquaman sets direction then keeps benning on a short leash and is a huge hockey fan and involved with decisions from the beginning. the hamhuis fiasco as related by botchford is a great example. according to botchford, benning had a deal with dallas, but aquaman made him go back for more, and dallas made a trade elsewhere.

you can posture all you want, of course, but i think anyone paying attention would think it is ridiculous for you to pretend you believe that benning has autonomy in making major signings of players for this team.

 

[krutovsdonut]

At times we are seeing beer league caliber play out there. T

i did not see the last three games, but this is why i have said for a while i think benning is done. this team never quit throughout long periods of utter crap for years. this year it looks palpably different.

 

[iceburg]

I wonder how much player agents have influence on ownership decisions either directly or through players? If a lot, we're hooped. I'm sure agents are organizing as we speak to show strong support for JB.

 

[DS7]

My experiences has shown me the type of work Jim has put in usually lets you climb the chain. Some of the craziest stuff I have seen at work comes from poor upper management

Jim is absolutely a person who would be promoted up to middle/upper management in today's corporate culture sadly

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

It doesn't look like anything too egregious on the player front. In the couple years after MacFarland arrived in Colorado they picked up Jack Skille, Cody Goluboef, and Fedor Tyutin all as UFAs or minor-league transactions. None lasted more than a year. So certainly nothing like the Weisbrod-Baertschi/Granlund situation here.

And if a new GM wants to bring some top personnel from a top NHL organization to replace some of the brain drain that's happened here over the past 5-6 years under Benning, I'm not opposed in the slightest.

I'm just curious if he's going to be able to replicate his success on a new team, since he won't have the advantage of pillaging from a team he had worked for for (?)15 years.

EDIT: Also, the list was a little longer,

Cody Bass
Francois Beauchemin
Derick Brassard
Andrew Bodnarcuck
Rene Bourque
Matt Calvert
Ian Cole
Blake Comeau
Kevin Connauton
Marko Dano
Justin Falk
Curtis Glencross
Cody Goloubef
Jack Skille
Jeremy Smith
T.J Tynan
Fyodor Tyutin
Trent Vogelhuber

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Heh, my reaction in this forum:



Of course what really rubbed salt in the wound that day was they also disposed of all the non-idiots in the front office. I couldn't believe anyone would have management's back, and this is a full year before the Eriksson contract...

i see your jim benning comics and raise you my 2011 canucks fan fiction. always love the excuse to dust this off—

prospectus for an ibsen play, or a boston-themed martin scorsese movie

dramatis personae

BC born superduperstar center: joe sakic
fill-in defenseman: aaron rome
former canucks defenseman #1: jim benning
former canucks defenseman #2: colin campbell
fourth line agitator #1: derek dorsett
fourth line agitator #2: brandon prust
other team's fourth line agitator: shawn thornton
stalwart western league defenseman #1: glen wesley
stalwart western league defenseman #2: dan hamhuis
trevor linden: trevor linden
young but slow-to-develop power forward #1: cam neely
young but slow-to-develop power forward #2: zack kassian
young, developed power forward #1: milan lucic
young, developed power forward #2: nathan horton


ACT ONE

- canucks trade young but slow-to-develop BC born power forward #1 along with a draft pick a year in the future (note: the team finished 4th worst in the league that season)

- canucks finish 3rd worst, other team drafts stalwart western league defenseman #1; but--- local BC-born future superduperstar center who was way better than pederson was on the table, albeit as a reach at #3 (who am i kidding? we would have taken western league defenseman/bust dean chynoweth with that pick)


[intermezzo: June 6, 1986 - trade in question; June 8, 2005 - young slow-to-develop power forward #1 inducted to hockey hall of fame; June 5, 2008 - stalwart western league defenseman #1 announces retirement]


ACT TWO

- 25 year later, canucks make the stanley cup finals. young slow-to-develop power forward #1 is now a reputedly influential front office guy on the other team after a HHOF career. his team has two young, developed power forwards who each resulted from the original trade (wesley --> samsonov pick --> lucic pick; wesley --> mclaren pick --> jeff jilsson --> brad boyes --> dennis wideman --> horton). his assistant GM is former canucks defenseman #1 from the sucky pederson era.

- game 1 of the finals, best canucks defensemen, a.k.a. stalwart western league defenseman #2, gets injured delivering a hip check to other team's young, developed power forward #1 early in the second period, gets injured, out for the season




- game 3 of the finals, early in the first period, score tied 0-0, canucks up 2-0 in the series but down their
best defensemen, with their next three biggest minute-eating d-men also nursing injuries (ehrhoff - shoulder; bieksa - MCL; edler - rumoured broken fingers; but sami salo—surprisingly healthy), fill-in defenseman delivers hit on other team's young, developed power forward #2. ejected from the game, canucks implode defensively, other team's physical game woken up, lose 8-1.




- next day, former canucks defenseman #2 rules in favor of his son's team, suspends canucks fill-in defensemen for the year; canucks d pairs remain in disarray, lose three of the next four games.


[intermezzo: other team's fourth line agitator returns to lineup in victorious game 3 after many healthy scratches; after game 5 victory, in which fourth line agitator played only four minutes, he averages an unprecedented >10'30" in lopsided game 6 and 7 victories, cited as a difference-maker in the series.


@2:50]


ACT THREE

- organizational meltdown ensues; best core in team history gets dismantled over next three seasons; canucks brass, haunted by humiliating physical battles lost to other team, blame the loss on lack of toughness.

- three years later, former canucks defenseman #1, now canucks GM, overpays with a 3rd round pick for a fourth line agitator #1.

- nine months later, former canucks defenseman #1 unfathomably re-signs fourth line agitator #1 for four years at $2.65 million per. justifies deal by praising agitator's mentorship of his young but slow-to-develop power forward #2.

- two months later, former canucks defenseman #1 gives away young but slow-to-develop power forward #2, with a 5th round pick, for fourth line agitator #2 ($2.5 million cap hit); justifies the trade by saying fourth line agitator #2 will mentor the young kids. fourth line agitator #1 (and his $2.65 million cap hit) still at large.























EDIT:

EPILOGUE

- five years later, financial audit reveals that former canucks defenseman #1 was a spy all along. trevor linden removes own eyeballs.​

 

[krutovsdonut]

i think rutherford stepped down for a combo of being really old, not wanting to/being allowed to deal with the fallout of the jarrod skalde wrongful termination lawsuit, and going away because it happened on his watch. i don't think he's coming back.




this reminds me of this one time years ago when one of my students came to my office to ask for an extra credit assignment after i handed back midterms. the specifics don't really matter and he got the chance to improve his grade he was asking for, but for some reason how he described the test always stuck with me. "i did okay on the multiple choice but got screwed by the paragraph answers."

benning got screwed over by covid the same way that kid got screwed over by the paragraph answers. he prepared for the test by memorizing all the names and dates and hoping for the best.

covid provided a challenge that benning could have been much more prepared to handle if he hadn't sunk $12 million in myers and eriksson, another $6 million in beagle and roussel, paid sutter whatever sutter costs, etc.

just not signing myers the year before, when we all knew tanev was 12 months from expiring, would have been enough to bring tanev back. not holding roussel, spooner's buyout, and baertschi's buried contract could have brought toffoli and stecher back.

i have no sunk costs in this narrative that covid saved benning so i have no problem with saying covid screwed him as a fact because it did. the thing is that, as with so many tenuous points defended tenaciously here, it does not matter. i do think he's accountable for the actual direction he took based on the covid situation. it was a bold roll of the dice. he could have played it safe.

but for covid benning i don't know what he would have done. perhaps he would have screwed it up or perhaps saved himself. for now i prefer to judge him on reality.