The Management Thread | Live, Play, Repeat Edition

[m9]

7 years in and people are still trying to parse out credit/blame for every Benning transaction. He is involved in all of it.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Because the real world doesn't have a Marxian draft system that rewards poor performance, such that CEOs can then say "look at all the new talent I brought in [by being inadvertently bad]!"

maybe not the time or place, but nowhere in marx does he say to give the best resources to the people whose work is the most unproductive

i think the better analogy is government bailouts to fortune 500 companies when they crater

in which case, the original incredulous analogy you were responding to works. petey and hughes are aquilini's stock buybacks.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i have no sunk costs in this narrative that covid saved benning so i have no problem with saying covid screwed him as a fact because it did. the thing is that, as with so many tenuous points defended tenaciously here, it does not matter. i do think he's accountable for the actual direction he took based on the covid situation. it was a bold roll of the dice. he could have played it safe.

but for covid benning i don't know what he would have done. perhaps he would have screwed it up or perhaps saved himself. for now i prefer to judge him on reality.

me having just posted my 2011 canucks fan fiction notwithstanding, i'm with you. there is a lot of reality to work with.

 

[4Twenty]

the fact it hurt everyone hurts your argument not helps it. the point is that nobody could have anticipated it, so criticizing benning because he was particularly vulnerable to it, is like blaming someone for not wearing sunscreen when he got hit by a meteorite. it's petty and detracts from substantive criticism of the guy.

I disagree. I think it makes the argument.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Love seeing some people trying to do damage control when Jim Benning’s Canucks are currently getting shit kicked, mainly as a result of his decisions. Some of our elite players have already given up on Benning (as the on-ice product shows) and yet we have people on here still defending him. Amazing stuff, really. Over/under on how many posters suddenly vanish when Benning is fired?

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

the fact it hurt everyone hurts your argument not helps it. the point is that nobody could have anticipated it, so criticizing benning because he was particularly vulnerable to it, is like blaming someone for not wearing sunscreen when he got hit by a meteorite. it's petty and detracts from substantive criticism of the guy.

Just a terrible analogy. Here's a better one.

Person A makes years of bad financial decisions and investments. 30-40% of his assets have no value. Person B has made minimal bad financial decisions. Pandemic happens. Person A is worse off because his years of bad decisions, and would of had issues regardless. Neither could of anticipated the pandemic, but only person B's problems were solely because of the pandemic. Person B is also better off because he didn't make stupid decisions before the pandemic.

 

[Seattle Totems]

Benning was gifted a tonne of assets and a competent team of NHL

Ownership owes fans an apology for hiring Linden with no experience and allowing an inept GM to mismanage the entire organisation for the last 7 years. There is no excuse for this mess. This GM inherited a competent hockey operations dept and was given enough assets and cap space to build a highly competitive team. There is no excuse for missing the playoffs and finishing dead last nearly every year and not rebuilding. There is no excuse for throwing away so many assets and competent hockey people. There is no excuse for doubling down and failing to admit every mistake.

Gilman, Bracket, Markstrom, Tanev. Virtanen over Toffoli. The list goes on and on. Most of these moves seem to be based on whether or not Benning acquired them originally - not what they bring to the organisation.

Hire a management team that is self aware and can admit their mistakes. Hire management that can delegate work to the best candidates. Trust ppl such as your head scout and give them autonomy.

 

[RandV]

can anyone else visit this alternate covid free reality or just you? asking for 7 billion friends.

Covid-19 was an equal opportunity event on the NHL. While it halted a 1.5-3M rise in the salary cap, it also drove down the cost of free agents and the cost to acquire existing contracts. For a team that's right up against the cap a downward pressure on salaries is probably much more beneficial than a tiny rise in the cap ceiling. And that's not even taking into account which direction the team was heading when the league shut down.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

seriously though i literally can't think of a time when a team quit on its GM

has this ever happened before?

 

[I am toxic]

If the pandemic never happens, the Canucks probably miss the playoffs and Benning is fired. And right now Tampa Bay owns our unprotected 1st round pick.

Benning lucked out with the pandemic, but so did the team.

The team loses out either way.

Without Miller, we would have had a lottery pick last draft. without him, we don't make playoffs, covid or no covid.

At the end of the day, we gave up a lottery pick for Miller.

At a time when it took Vezina level goaltending and a once in a lifetime pandemic to squeak into a bubble playoffs.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Love seeing some people trying to do damage control when Jim Benning’s Canucks are currently getting shit kicked, mainly as a result of his decisions. Some of our elite players have already given up on Benning (as the on-ice product shows) and yet we have people on here still defending him. Amazing stuff, really. Over/under on how many posters suddenly vanish when Benning is fired?

do you honestly think pettersson perceives benning as the problem and believes everything will be rosy without him?

this team played hard for benning for years even when losing.

a series of changes were made this off season. pettersson and others are very angry about those decisions. they can do the numbers and see that valued team mates were swapped for other players earning roughly the same amount in the end.

the team is angry these decisions were made. they did not make the team better. they were ruthlessly done, and the team mates turfed were frozen out and kicked to the curb after years of bleeding canucks colours.

pettersson et all are angry that happened, in no small part because they don't want to be treated like those guys down the road. pettersson went so far as to change agents to make a strong statement about it.

your assumption that this anger is directed at benning assumes benning made those decisions alone and that this is how the players perceive it. it assumes that aquaman stood by helpless and mute while benning ghosted valuable veteran team mates.

but i think anyone watching the way tanev in particular was treated would assume aquaman must have been involved or else he would have intervened.

so i don't think the team makes the assumption this was benning. i think the only way pettersson remains a canuck is if he is convinced someone is in charge who has the ability to mute aquaman.

i don't believe aquaman will hire such a person. i believe aquaman will try and hire a likeable guy he can still boss around in the background being more subtle and try and weather the situation.

i don't believe aquaman can hire such a person. i believe aquaman's act is understood around the league and nobody of caliber needed would work for him.

and so i think petey is gone. hughes probably also.

 

[xtra]

The Ferland disaster signing has kind of gone off the radar of fans with his LTIR status, but you can be pretty sure Aquilini hasn't forgotten that he's paying $12 million for an uninsurable player not to play for the next 4 years.

why do you assume it was not aquaman's idea in the first place? logic dictates benning would have been fired for that crazy risky signing unless ownership had ownership of it. so you are being illogical.

not to mention, shiny new toys every year, boundary pushing, and risk taking are all hallmarks of aquaman's entire period of ownership, not just the benning period.

they are also hallmarks of decision making by rich kids enjoying life on daddy's money.

You are both wrong...it was clearly the Easter bunny who directed the signing.

I have as much proof that the Easter bunny did as bandwagon has that Aqua directed it.
Actually the Easter bunny hasn’t said he doesn’t interfere in hockey operations.

so probability that the person directed the signing of ferland goes:

1A: Jim benning
1B: Easter bunny

2: Aqua

 

[4Twenty]

Its unreal to me some folk are willing to absolve the GM of the team of nearly all responsibilities after 7 years on the job.

It boggles the mind especially in light of the constant “but Gillis” excuses over the years.

wild.

 

[supercanuck]

but i think anyone watching the way tanev in particular was treated would assume aquaman must have been involved or else he would have intervened.

I honestly don't think most people would see it that way. Why would he tell Benning to proceed in bad faith negotiations (string him along/ignore him) with a heart and soul Canuck? What does he gain from that? To push him to a division rival? To add black mark on his franchise? At most, Benning told him he was going for bigger fish and Aq approved.

This is 100% on Benning's incompetence, and being unable to concentrate on more than one thing (OEL) at a time.

 

[MS]

On FA vs. Benning :

1) Absolutely, there might have been a couple specific situations that Aquilini was involved in. And in the case of the Hamhuis trade, his blood feud with Gaglardi may have contributed to him not liking the optics of being a 'seller' to Gaglardi's better team.

2) There are some very large moves that FA was involved in, but that Benning was also 100% behind. The Lucic signing, as an example.

3) There is 0 evidence that FA is dictating mid-level and small transactions by the club. And nobody on the other side is saying things like 'FA dictated that Benning trade for Nate Schmidt!' when Benning actually does a good.

4) Even if FA is suggesting the team pursue Michael Ferland, it's the job of a competent GM to explain why signing a broken-down, uninsurable player to a long-term contract is a bad idea. The GM wears that transaction in every circumstance.

 

[Wall of Wonder]

Benning, Wiesbrod and Gear all need to go.

 

[m9]

seriously though i literally can't think of a time when a team quit on its GM

has this ever happened before?

If so it's pretty rare.. which is why the whole discussion about the team not playing for Benning is extremely weird.

Coach? Sure, but it seems strange in this case as nothing has really changed. He's had their back the entire time and has gone out of his way to praise them even when it's undeserved.

Something is off with this team.. and I think it has to do with JT Miller. He has played awful this year and has noticeably been pissed off all season long. But most telling to me is when EP was asked about taken off his line he actually seemed pretty happy about it and was excited to play with Pearson and Hoglander instead of Miller. It wasn't just him being nice.. he seemed genuinely excited about playing with worse players. Maybe I'm reading into things wrong here but there is some sort of disconnect between Miller and someone (either players, coaches, management) and it's causing a dark cloud over everything.

 

[jigsaw99]

Its unreal to me some folk are willing to absolve the GM of the team of nearly all responsibilities after 7 years on the job.

It boggles the mind especially in light of the constant “but Gillis” excuses over the years.

wild.

Benning fans will use the Gillis card in year 10 if it goes to that.
just like the "drafted well" card

It's the only two cards

 

[I am toxic]

Its unreal to me some folk are willing to absolve the GM of the team of nearly all responsibilities after 7 years on the job.

It boggles the mind especially in light of the constant “but Gillis” excuses over the years.

wild.

Link to accompanying audio.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

imo it's clear that Aquillini is the de facto GM of the Canucks. It's been obvious for a while. if you think the slate will be wiped clean and you can feel okay cheering for this team again once Benning is gone you're probably going to be disappointed. I'll be willing to give the next guy a chance, and I might even start watching regularly again, but I'm expecting the canucks to remain a thoroughly mediocre, forgettable NHL franchise as they have been for basically their entire existence.

This team needs to be bought by a giant Chinese company that will sign the cheques and stay out of hockey ops.

 

[Fatass]

Its unreal to me some folk are willing to absolve the GM of the team of nearly all responsibilities after 7 years on the job.

It boggles the mind especially in light of the constant “but Gillis” excuses over the years.

wild.

If we were properly rebuilding, and there was a deep prospect pool it’s a bright future I’d accept all e losing. But we’ve been terrible, and don’t have a bright tomorrow. That’s what is hard on me, as a fan, to accept.

 

[MS]

imo it's clear that Aquillini is the de facto GM of the Canucks. It's been obvious for a while. if you think the slate will be wiped clean and you can feel okay cheering for this team again once Benning is gone you're probably going to be disappointed. I'll be willing to give the next guy a chance, and I might even start watching regularly again, but I'm expecting the canucks to remain a thoroughly mediocre, forgettable NHL franchise as they have been for basically their entire existence.

This team needs to be bought by a giant Chinese company that will sign the cheques and stay out of hockey ops.

I think he is the de facto President. I don't believe he is the de facto GM.

I agree that it will be difficult to find good people who want to work for him.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

4) Even if FA is suggesting the team pursue Michael Ferland, it's the job of a competent GM to explain why signing a broken-down, uninsurable player to a long-term contract is a bad idea. The GM wears that transaction in every circumstance.

yup. the only time i can think of where a GM deserves a pass on his owner telling him to sign a crappy player was tambo signing mike comrie ten years ago. to be fair to all involved, comrie got a league minimum contract in an attempt to rescue his career.

as far as i know ferland isn't one of aqualini's rich guy buddies' kids.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

If we were properly rebuilding, and there was a deep prospect pool it’s a bright future I’d accept all e losing. But we’ve been terrible, and don’t have a bright tomorrow. That’s what is hard on me, as a fan, to accept.

The funny thing is we unintentionally saw a tank job and rebuild ...and the team looked to be on the rise and Benning seemingly wrecked that in a span of 2 weeks!!!

 

[I am toxic]

Benning fans will use the Gillis card in year 10 if it goes to that.
just like the "drafted well" card

It's the only two cards

They will play wait and see for as long as Benning is around.

Then lay down the trump card.

Hindsight is 20/20.