The jury is officially in: Alexis Lafreniere is a complete bust

[Casper The Soy Ghost]

I mean sure, but not one Rangers fan would've been happy with an RNH career arc pre draft.

No shit? No team would want that when the first overalls are supposed to be (or close to) superstars down the road.

It doesn't mean that said player isn't going to a valuable top 6 player in the future.

Also let's be honest - how many 1 st overalls get stuck on a team that has Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider and Fox on the powerplay.

Alexis the Youthful Talented Winger Who Unsurprisingly Needs Consistent Top-6 Minutes, a Skilled Centre, and Powerplay Time to Break Out
May his name be etched alongside the other greats known as Alex.

Alex Chiason?

 

[Beniers10 Hughes86]

Wel, well, well... how the turn table

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

The tough thing and the issue that's always going to hold him back for at least the next few years (probably) is that most of his production will be at 5v5. If he can put up 50-60 points mostly at 5v5 then that's huge because he's not getting time on the first powerplay that other young players do. He'll get some PP points with the second power play but Rangers powerplay overall is what, 2nd in the league? He's not replacing anyone on PP1 right now unless there's an injury, so that will always "depress" his point totals compared to peers who play on the top powerplay

It's a weird situation

He needs to replace Trocheck at some point. Not now, but when it hits a rut, he should. The excuse about Trocheck being a right shot and Laf a left is stupid. The PP was supposed to fall apart replacing Fox with a left-shot, and it hasn’t.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

That Jersey series wasn't built for him and Kakko, the Devils were the worst matchup for their kids + most of their roster. While it was funny, he did absolutely nothing that series, it was pretty understandable he didn't do much. The Rangers were gonna win that series on the special teams + goaltending and to their credit, they almost f***ing did it.

That stupid kid line lasted too long. It was Gallant’s excuse to not give any of them true responsibility in a bigger role.

The biggest guy to blame for the Rangers in that series is Gallant. He was atrocious, and completely earned his dismissal following it.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I hate to be that guy but I don't buy any of this.

This game isn't proof that his production depends on his TOI. He played 14 minutes in this game and the last. He's had 3 points in the 7 games where he played over 16 minutes. He actually is only averaging 20 more seconds than last year anyway.

On top of that, before this 3 point game, he was basically at .5 ppg which is the exact same pace as last year. One good game doesn't override an overall pattern. Sure, maybe he's still improving but none of those points seemed to show he's significantly better this season.

People didn't blame Lafreniere for the Rangers losing in the playoffs (as far as I remember anyway), they simply pointed out that his lack of productivity carrying over from an 82-game season showed signs of an overall pattern of productive ineptitude. It's the same thing with the preseason you're referring to. People aren't using small sample sizes and nitpicking at them to prove their point, they're looking at a continuum of games over the years and acknowledging that he hasn't improved all too much.

For a 1st round pick, there is usually a somewhat non-linear jump in productivity as a result of "everything clicking" or "putting all the pieces together". That hasn't been the case with Lafreniere. He hasn't drastically improved certain areas of his game like others . Hughes for example, had the raw skills but wasn't acclimated to the pace of the NHL and lacked the physicality before everything clicked. Mackinnon had the raw skills and physicality but didn't approach the game in a strategic manner that catered to his skill set. Lafreniere doesn't have the raw skills either of those players had, I don't see what's so different about him this season at all tbh.

I'm happy that he had a big game but I'm not convinced he's turned the corner.

Very weak arguments.

First of all, I didn’t say this game is proof. I’ve been saying this throughout. You can try to wiggle your way out of his stats being an improvement, but they legitimately are. You can’t just take away a player’s best games on the scoresheet. There are also games where a player doesn’t get on the scoresheet and they should’ve. That’s the NHL. It should all even out. And his stats have also gotten better every season of his career.

You mention his TOI only marginally improving, but it has more to do with where he’s playing in the lineup. He’s playing in a top 6 spot. He’s not on a stupid designated 3rd line kid line where 3 early 20’s are supposed to magically create a great line when none of them have previously been top 6 in this league. Now he’s playing with true top 6 players. That makes a huge difference.

Also, you simply don’t know what you are saying if you think Lafreniere wasn’t blamed disproportionately for the playoffs. It’s stupid to blame a young player in this league on your third line. What do you expect he becomes, Batman? He is what he is. He’s not an NHL star. He’s probably going to have 7 game slumps. It happened at a bad time, but the blame should be going to the veteran players that are the stars and are paid like them. It shouldn’t be dumping on a kid because he hasn’t hit the expected heights. Does this need to be brought up in every discussion about him? No one contests its validity. Does every RNH discussion have to be about the same thing?

Lastly, bringing up MacKinnon and Hughes is completely irrelevant. Two players in different situations. It’s possible Lafreniere was never as good as them or it’s possible his early NHL development impacted his ability to reach where they will. It’s still possible Lafreniere reaches his ceiling later than most 1OA’s, so it might be that we are both wrong on this. Regardless, you are bringing up something no one contests. You’ve created a controversy that no one is arguing about.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I know people lose sight of the big picture on this website very often, but he's gotten better every year of his career. It's been slow until this point, but the TOI wasn't there before this season. He's now producing like a top 6 player because he's getting top 6 minutes.

Some of the reactions after last season especially made no sense. Like I get people are mad he had a bad playoffs, but it's a 7 game sample. It happens, and the whole team basically aside from 1 or 2 didn't show up. I don't think the 3LW is the real guy to blame there. Then the preseason. Why put so much emphasis on those games? We see every season that some of the guys with spots going in use it as a warm up and don't take it seriously.

The big picture is that this is a player who has gotten better every season of his career. I know it's not at the pace all of us wanted, but he's still going to become a 1st line forward. It's better that it happens at 24 than it doesn't happen.

I had so much hope coming off the second half of Laf's 2021-22 season/playoffs but I was let down in 2022-23. I think Laf took a step back last season regardless of point totals. This season he is playing better than he ever has in my opinion. He is making plays instead of just being around. Laf's play this season has given me a lot of hope.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I hate to be that guy but I don't buy any of this.

This game isn't proof that his production depends on his TOI. He played 14 minutes in this game and the last. He's had 3 points in the 7 games where he played over 16 minutes. He actually is only averaging 20 more seconds than last year anyway.

On top of that, before this 3 point game, he was basically at .5 ppg which is the exact same pace as last year. One good game doesn't override an overall pattern. Sure, maybe he's still improving but none of those points seemed to show he's significantly better this season.

People didn't blame Lafreniere for the Rangers losing in the playoffs (as far as I remember anyway), they simply pointed out that his lack of productivity carrying over from an 82-game season showed signs of an overall pattern of productive ineptitude. It's the same thing with the preseason you're referring to. People aren't using small sample sizes and nitpicking at them to prove their point, they're looking at a continuum of games over the years and acknowledging that he hasn't improved all too much.

For a 1st round pick, there is usually a somewhat non-linear jump in productivity as a result of "everything clicking" or "putting all the pieces together". That hasn't been the case with Lafreniere. He hasn't drastically improved certain areas of his game like others . Hughes for example, had the raw skills but wasn't acclimated to the pace of the NHL and lacked the physicality before everything clicked. Mackinnon had the raw skills and physicality but didn't approach the game in a strategic manner that catered to his skill set. Lafreniere doesn't have the raw skills either of those players had, I don't see what's so different about him this season at all tbh.

I'm happy that he had a big game but I'm not convinced he's turned the corner.

Too early to say he is anywhere yet but I will tell you he is skating, passing, and handling the puck much better than he ever has as a pro. His effort has increased. His creative plays have increased. It is very cool to watch. Playing with Bread has also helped him imo. The next thing I want to see is Laf shooting more. If you read my posts I was really down on Laf in training camp. Now I have a lot more hope for him.

 

[blundluntman]

Too early to say he is anywhere yet but I will tell you he is skating, passing, and handling the puck much better than he ever has as a pro. His effort has increased. His creative plays have increased. It is very cool to watch. Playing with Bread has also helped him imo. The next thing I want to see is Laf shooting more. If you read my posts I was really down on Laf in training camp. Now I have a lot more hope for him.

Well that's good to know. Does he seem to be driving play more than before? That's the main concern I have with his game tbh, he usually seems like more of a passenger (although I will admit he usually finds the right places to be on the ice)

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I had so much hope coming off the second half of Laf's 2021-22 season/playoffs but I was let down in 2022-23. I think Laf took a step back last season regardless of point totals. This season he is playing better than he ever has in my opinion. He is making plays instead of just being around. Laf's play this season has given me a lot of hope.

I think though that last season was an improvement from the prior season, on the balance. I think people anchor their opinions too much on that playoffs. It’s the most recent memory of that season, but it’s 7 games when nearly everyone struggled. And if asked before the playoffs, I think most would say he improved from the prior season. As much as we wanted? No, but I’m not sure that improvement was ever coming to the degree we wanted if he wasn’t given that true top 6 spot. When you put him and Kakko on the third line at the deadline for two washed up former stars, it’s seriously disruptive to their development and probably stifled some of the improvement we could’ve seen.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

He's playing better. Stapled to Panarin he should quite easily put up 60 points this year

 

[TheBeard]

Didn’t we have a thread like this around this time last year as well?

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

He's playing better. Stapled to Panarin he should quite easily put up 60 points this year

lets take a chill pill lol

before last night he had six points in twelve games

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think though that last season was an improvement from the prior season, on the balance. I think people anchor their opinions too much on that playoffs. It’s the most recent memory of that season, but it’s 7 games when nearly everyone struggled. And if asked before the playoffs, I think most would say he improved from the prior season. As much as we wanted? No, but I’m not sure that improvement was ever coming to the degree we wanted if he wasn’t given that true top 6 spot. When you put him and Kakko on the third line at the deadline for two washed up former stars, it’s seriously disruptive to their development and probably stifled some of the improvement we could’ve seen.

I do not look at most stats. I do not view the kids line as a 3rd line when people all say Laf, Chytil and KK should be top 6 players. Laf played more EV minutes than CK last season. For me it was about effort. I felt like Laf raised his effort in the second half and playoffs 2 seasons ago. Last season I felt that effort dropped. This season I'm seeing Laf give more of an effort than he ever has before. I'm really pleased by that. I think that is the biggest key for him. If I was a young player today I would tell myself I never want to be outworked by a 36 year old Sidney Crosby. Guys that really want to be star players put in above average work usually.

 

[blundluntman]

Very weak arguments.

First of all, I didn’t say this game is proof. I’ve been saying this throughout. You can try to wiggle your way out of his stats being an improvement, but they legitimately are. You can’t just take away a player’s best games on the scoresheet. There are also games where a player doesn’t get on the scoresheet and they should’ve. That’s the NHL. It should all even out. And his stats have also gotten better every season of his career.

You mention his TOI only marginally improving, but it has more to do with where he’s playing in the lineup. He’s playing in a top 6 spot. He’s not on a stupid designated 3rd line kid line where 3 early 20’s are supposed to magically create a great line when none of them have previously been top 6 in this league. Now he’s playing with true top 6 players. That makes a huge difference.

Also, you simply don’t know what you are saying if you think Lafreniere wasn’t blamed disproportionately for the playoffs. It’s stupid to blame a young player in this league on your third line. What do you expect he becomes, Batman? He is what he is. He’s not an NHL star. He’s probably going to have 7 game slumps. It happened at a bad time, but the blame should be going to the veteran players that are the stars and are paid like them. It shouldn’t be dumping on a kid because he hasn’t hit the expected heights. Does this need to be brought up in every discussion about him? No one contests its validity. Does every RNH discussion have to be about the same thing?

Lastly, bringing up MacKinnon and Hughes is completely irrelevant. Two players in different situations. It’s possible Lafreniere was never as good as them or it’s possible his early NHL development impacted his ability to reach where they will. It’s still possible Lafreniere reaches his ceiling later than most 1OA’s, so it might be that we are both wrong on this. Regardless, you are bringing up something no one contests. You’ve created a controversy that no one is arguing about.

Yes, he's technically "improved", but he hasn't made any leaps that show me he will be a top 6 producer. He strikes me as a middle 6 tweener at best. Perhaps he does have some games where he should've been on the scoresheet, literally every player does... But he also has a plethora of games where he wasn't and had no business being on the scoresheet. The latter seems to outnumber the former to a degree that leads me to believe his improvement while existent, is not sufficient.

Even with this top 6 placement, he's produced at exactly the same rate outside of his game yesterday. How does anything about this season (outside the game yesterday) prove that it made a significant difference? I watched his shifts from that game and while he was at the right place at the right time for some decent puck movement and opportunities, he didn't seem dynamic or show an approach to the game that necessarily replicates that type of production over the course of a season.

Unless I've been on a different forum than you completely, I can confidently say I didn't see people disproportionately blaming him for the Rangers series loss. He caught flack and was ridiculed but I didn't see anybody say he was the sole reason they lost that series. The latter would be disproportionate, the former is completely fair. Maybe I didn't dig enough, but the extreme opinions of a select few people don't mean that his performance in the playoffs isn't notably bad and reflective of people's opinions of him.

Mackinnon and Hughes are just two examples but my point still stands. Players that are top 6 or top-line material tend to have elements of their game that shine through, either that or they are moderately skilled in multiple areas and can produce consistently. Like I said, Lafreniere hasn't shown that throughout his career and I didn't see all too much of it yesterday. None of those plays wouldn't have been pulled off by a bottom-six forward. He's a bit faster which contributed to that 2 on 1 goal but he doesn't seem to be any more skilled, just better conditioned. I don't think that's enough to make a player a 1st liner. That's why I mentioned the non linear jump/"everything clicking".

You said he's going to become a top 6 forward, I said that I don't believe so and gave my reasons. That's not creating some false controversy.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Well that's good to know. Does he seem to be driving play more than before? That's the main concern I have with his game tbh, he usually seems like more of a passenger (although I will admit he usually finds the right places to be on the ice)

That may depend on your point of view and the situation. I have seen him create plays this season that he has not done before. I have seen him try new things carrying the puck and passing the puck. I'm not ready to call him an all star nor elite but I will say that he is doing things now that he never did in his first 3 seasons. He has given me reason to hope he can be that guy but its early. I would like to see him take another step forward by shooting the puck more. Another key is how he will rebound when he hits a cold streak.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Well that's good to know. Does he seem to be driving play more than before? That's the main concern I have with his game tbh, he usually seems like more of a passenger (although I will admit he usually finds the right places to be on the ice)

He is driving play more. But he is also playing with Panarin so being in the right place at the right time for Panarin to find him isn't really a bad thing and kind of makes him an ideal linemate for Panarin.

He's playing better. Stapled to Panarin he should quite easily put up 60 points this year

Not sure if it'll be easily. But 60 pts without top unit PP time would be pretty good.

 

[QJL]

Lafreniere has looked good. He is teetering on being a top 6 forward finally.

Kakko snakebite is an endless disease. Made a ton of plays last night playing with scrubs who couldn't make anything of it.

 

[Fitzy]

Seems to yo-yo. back and forth from year to year. Last season Kakko showed some top 6 spark, this season he's back to underperforming and Lafreniere is showing well.

For Laf, each of his first 3 seasons he started slower than he finished the year. I think that's a reason to be optimistic for 50-60 points this season.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

He is driving play more. But he is also playing with Panarin so being in the right place at the right time for Panarin to find him isn't really a bad thing and kind of makes him an ideal linemate for Panarin.


Not sure if it'll be easily. But 60 pts without top unit PP time would be pretty good.

I would not underestimate the power of the bread man in what is shaping up to be a career year for him.

He has gotten many guys paid over the course of his career. That 2 on 1 pass to Laffy looked easy, but absolutely was not. If that's Trocheck passing that puck it winds up in the dman's feet and Laffy getting no points.

Bread is truly elite and him and Laf are setting each other up very nicely

 

[blundluntman]

That may depend on your point of view and the situation. I have seen him create plays this season that he has not done before. I have seen him try new things carrying the puck and passing the puck. I'm not ready to call him an all star nor elite but I will say that he is doing things now that he never did in his first 3 seasons. He has given me reason to hope he can be that guy but its early. I would like to see him take another step forward by shooting the puck more. Another key is how he will rebound when he hits a cold streak.

Fair enough, that makes sense. It'll be interesting to see if he can take more charge this season

 

[TGWL]

Didn’t we have a thread like this around this time last year as well?

It could be the same thread. It just never ends...

 

[surixon]

He has definitely been more confident and assertive with the puck this year in the games I've caught. Looks like a top 6 forward now and the scoring is matching what I've witnessed. Not a star but he's taken a noticeable step forward imo.

 

[EdJovanovski]

There has been a mistrial

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Yes, he's technically "improved", but he hasn't made any leaps that show me he will be a top 6 producer. He strikes me as a middle 6 tweener at best. Perhaps he does have some games where he should've been on the scoresheet, literally every player does... But he also has a plethora of games where he wasn't and had no business being on the scoresheet. The latter seems to outnumber the former to a degree that leads me to believe his improvement while existent, is not sufficient.

Even with this top 6 placement, he's produced at exactly the same rate outside of his game yesterday. How does anything about this season (outside the game yesterday) prove that it made a significant difference? I watched his shifts from that game and while he was at the right place at the right time for some decent puck movement and opportunities, he didn't seem dynamic or show an approach to the game that necessarily replicates that type of production over the course of a season.

Unless I've been on a different forum than you completely, I can confidently say I didn't see people disproportionately blaming him for the Rangers series loss. He caught flack and was ridiculed but I didn't see anybody say he was the sole reason they lost that series. The latter would be disproportionate, the former is completely fair. Maybe I didn't dig enough, but the extreme opinions of a select few people don't mean that his performance in the playoffs isn't notably bad and reflective of people's opinions of him.

Mackinnon and Hughes are just two examples but my point still stands. Players that are top 6 or top-line material tend to have elements of their game that shine through, either that or they are moderately skilled in multiple areas and can produce consistently. Like I said, Lafreniere hasn't shown that throughout his career and I didn't see all too much of it yesterday. None of those plays wouldn't have been pulled off by a bottom-six forward. He's a bit faster which contributed to that 2 on 1 goal but he doesn't seem to be any more skilled, just better conditioned. I don't think that's enough to make a player a 1st liner. That's why I mentioned the non linear jump/"everything clicking".

You said he's going to become a top 6 forward, I said that I don't believe so and gave my reasons. That's not creating some false controversy.

You realize that at the end of any season that if you take away a player's 2 or 3 best games on the scoresheet that you are talking about a player with 5-10 less points, and it changes the tenor of the discussion. No offense, but you can't do that. I don't think that's in any way in bounds to argue. The other thing you are wrong about is that if you take away his best game (like you are doing), and we just look at 6 points in 12 games, that's literally top 6 production going by last season's standards. Last season he was also top 6 (39 points in 81 games). Not by a lot, but if we are talking about the literal definition, he was in the top 192 in the league for forwards in points. This season that's only gotten better.

The false controversy is that you bring up Hughes and MacKinnon, two of the best scorers in the league as a way to prove he's not top 6. That's so far beyond a discussion of top 6.

 

[Kegs]

Wow. Calling him a bust is ridiculous. He is a decent player who will have a long career. He is getting better every year too. I’m can’t even believe ppl are so quick to call someone a bust. Is he playing in Europe?