The Fall of Pierre

[Micklebot]

I guess the crux of my argument is that Stützle, Tkachuk, Norris, Giroux and Batherson are talented enough to drive scoring in the top 6, and will be for the next several years (Stützle especially has 40G, 100P+ potential), so having a defence-oriented presence like Paul as the 6th guy wouldn't have been a problem. While Debrincat is a big upgrade offensively on Paul, he wasn't a necessary one.

If we had allocated the $6M (difference between Debrincat's and Paul's salaries) to our D core, we would have been better served.

And that still might happen. With new management, I wouldn't be surprised to see Dbc swapped out for help on D, and a 30-40pt checker brought in to round out the top 6 next year.

Well, I think Paul was already passed by Formenton seeing as Stü and Formenton had shown chemistry once Stützle went to center.

I don't think it's realistic to think they had any intention of playing Paul in our top 6 regardless of whether DeBrincat got signed, Formenton situation obviously creates an opportunity but in an ideal world you aren't expect your 30 pts defensive winger will ever step into your second line, Paul really hadn't shown much offense in his game, and certainly not 30 goal potential

What's interesting to me is that you feel we don't need Debrincat's offense, meanwhile we're 2nd last in the league in 5v5 GF (3rd last per 60), and we were 3rd last last year. Offense is absolutely a problem, surpringly we actually have better GA numbers both in terms of GA/60 (6th last) and xGA (18th best).

What would have helped us both offensively and defensively in the top 6 far more than Paul is Norris staying healthy. If you want a defensive conscious on your line, that's ideally going to be your center. Pinto was to green to get it done, I doubt Paul over DeBrincat helps that out. Perhaps a better RHD on the roster would help, but imo our issue at center (thx to the Norris injury) is actually bigger than on D,

 

[Ice-Tray]

DBC is our second most skilled player after Stu, and Paul is absolutely not a top 6 player. He’s killing it right now in Tampa, but we have seen him for years.

I don’t see why we would accept non top 6 caliber guys in our top six, but be adamant that we need 4 top 4 caliber dmen in the top 4.

We need both.

Paul is not a top six playmaker, skater, or scorer, he’s a bottom 6 defensive forward who is rarely physical for his size, who has break out games occasionally, and who works hard and has a wicked story of perseverance. He’s earned his shot with Tampa, but we don’t actually need him anymore. We need his spot for Grieg and Crookshank to get a shot.

Brown wanted out, we got a nice pick for him, and we gave what would have been his spot, which was also a reduction in role in a contract year, to Joseph for cheaper.

These moves aren’t ‘plan the parade’ but they are tidy pieces of business to save a bit of money, clear roster spots in the bottom six, while doing right by two good soldiers during the worst of the rebuild.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Well, I think Paul was already passed by Formenton seeing as Stü and Formenton had shown chemistry once Stützle went to center.

In an alternative universe where Paul was signed and HC never happened, if you had asked DJ Smith "Who will average more ice time and play higher in the lineup, and in more important situations, in 22/23 - Nick Paul or Alex Formenton?" I bet he says Nick Paul without blinking.

There's a reason why, despite being less offensively talented, he played 2 minutes more a night than Formenton last year, and why, when he got to Tampa, he played more a night than a guy like Ondrej Palat.

I think you're focusing too much on offense and are ignoring what makes Paul the type of player who's beloved by coaches.

The guy is a 16+ minute-a-night forward on pretty much every team in the league.

 

[Ice-Tray]

We'll see. I bet new management comes in and DBC or Batherson is flipped for budget space and D.

I don't think both are on the team next year.

I doubt the first thing new ownership does with their new billion dollar asset is go ahead and make the team worse when we’re on track to getting better.

It would be funny, ironically, for new management to turn the fanbase against home as their first order of business.

Trade away young star players for budget space! The King is dead, long live the King.

In an alternative universe where Paul was signed and HC never happened, if you had asked DJ Smith "Who will average more ice time and play higher in the lineup, and in more important situations, in 22/23 - Nick Paul or Alex Formenton?" I bet he says Nick Paul without blinking.

There's a reason why, despite being less offensively talented, he played 2 minutes more a night than Formenton last year, and why, when he got to Tampa, he played more a night than a guy like Ondrej Palat.

I think you're focusing too much on offense and are ignoring what makes Paul the type of player who's beloved by coaches.

The guy is a 16+ minute-a-night forward on pretty much every team in the league.

Yeah no chance of that happening at all.

Formy would be the guy to move up into the top 6, and he already plays PK. He’d also be a PP option before Paul because he is a better offensive player.

Paul would absolutely get grinding and checking minutes, but would be playing 4th line minutes with PK time on a healthy roster that had Formy and DBC.

The legend of Nick Paul continues to grow…

 

[bicboi64]

What would have helped us both offensively and defensively in the top 6 far more than Paul is Norris staying healthy. If you want a defensive conscious on your line, that's ideally going to be your center. Pinto was to green to get it done, I doubt Paul over DeBrincat helps that out. Perhaps a better RHD on the roster would help, but imo our issue at center (thx to the Norris injury) is actually bigger than on D,

Not that I'm arguing Paul is a top 6 forward by any means, but wouldn't him being our 2C helped in the event that Norris injured had we kept him? Keeps Pinto on the third line and gives us a more balanced forward core over what we have right now.

Formy would be the guy to move up into the top 6, and he already plays PK. He’d also be a PP option before Paul because he is a better offensive player.

Paul would absolutely get grinding and checking minutes, but would be playing 4th line minutes with PK time on a healthy roster that had Formy and DBC.

The legend of Nick Paul continues to grow…

I don't think Paul would be a 4th line guy. DJ absolutely loves him and we all know how much he overplays 'his' guys. He'd be a regular on the third line at the least and having Paul or Formenton with Pinto would be great for the team. Paul can play both wing and C, so his versatility would help him get those 3rd line minutes at the minimum

 

[Ice-Tray]

Not that I'm arguing Paul is a top 6 forward by any means, but wouldn't him being our 2C helped in the event that Norris injured had we kept him? Keeps Pinto on the third line and gives us a more balanced forward core over what we have right now.


I don't think Paul would be a 4th line guy. DJ absolutely loves him and we all know how much he overplays 'his' guys. He'd be a regular on the third line at the least and having Paul or Formenton with Pinto would be great for the team. Paul can play both wing and C, so his versatility would help him get those 3rd line minutes at the minimum

I loved him too, but he isn’t playing on the 3rd line of Formy/Pinto/Brown. He does have versatility for injuries though, you’re right about that.

Paul is an LW/C no? Not sure he’s a good option at RW and definitely not over Brown.

In this lineup we also see a logjam for guys like Crookshank and Grieg who also have potential to be better than Paul and are coming Due a shot.

I think it was a fine time to move on from Paul, and I definitely wouldn’t want him for 7 years.

 

[bicboi64]

I loved him too, but he isn’t playing on the 3rd line of Formy/Pinto/Brown. He does have versatility for injuries though, you’re right about that.

Paul is an LW/C no? Not sure he’s a good option at RW and definitely not over Brown.

In this lineup we also see a logjam for guys like Crookshank and Grieg who also have potential to be better than Paul and are coming Due a shot.

I think it was a fine time to move on from Paul, and I definitely wouldn’t want him for 7 years.

My comment was in response to the scenario of us not having DeBrincat. Formenton's developing chemistry with Stu would've given him a 2LW spot and regardless of whether we kept Brown, Paul + Pinto on the 3rd line would've been a regular. I'm just arguing for the merits of keeping Paul and Formenton, instead of acquiring Cat.

We're not even giving our prospects a chance to play on the third line right now when are in desperate need. At this rate, I don't think anyone aside from Greig will ever get a shot.

 

[bert]

We don't know what the situation was with Paul. Was it just putting more dollars on the table? And more term? Personally I would have rather kept him. But cap mgmt is a balancing act.

We also don't really know the Brown situation. Did he ask to be moved? Did he say he wasn't coming back? Was their budget dollars?

I'm really not much for looking back in time and reassessing what should have been done to move forward. That's simply a great way to live your life with regret and I simply don't operate that way.

I do know, unfortunately that is what happened. Paul wanted 3, the sens wouldn't get there.

The only thing I can see for Brown is budget. But that could have easily been avoided by not trading Gustavsson for Talbot.

Just need a new GM. Which I am positive comes with new ownership.

 

[Micklebot]

In an alternative universe where Paul was signed and HC never happened, if you had asked DJ Smith "Who will average more ice time and play higher in the lineup, and in more important situations, in 22/23 - Nick Paul or Alex Formenton?" I bet he says Nick Paul without blinking.

There's a reason why, despite being less offensively talented, he played 2 minutes more a night than Formenton last year, and why, when he got to Tampa, he played more a night than a guy like Ondrej Palat.

I think you're focusing too much on offense and are ignoring what makes Paul the type of player who's beloved by coaches.

The guy is a 16+ minute-a-night forward on pretty much every team in the league.

I mean, we literally had Formenton playing with Stützle last year while Paul was playing with White and Sandford heading into the deadline.

Pretty much all of March until Paul was traded the lines were this:

Tkachuk-Norris-Brown (Batherson was still hurt)
Formenton-Stützle-Gaudette
Paul-White-Sandford

That's how our current coach lined them up,

 

[Micklebot]

Not that I'm arguing Paul is a top 6 forward by any means, but wouldn't him being our 2C helped in the event that Norris injured had we kept him? Keeps Pinto on the third line and gives us a more balanced forward core over what we have right now.

Paul offers flexibility which would have been welcomed, I'm sure we'd have tried him at center again to keep Pinto on the third, but remember, Paul didn't really ever look comfortable at center here, at least imo.

 

[aragorn]

I doubt the first thing new ownership does with their new billion dollar asset is go ahead and make the team worse when we’re on track to getting better.

It would be funny, ironically, for new management to turn the fanbase against home as their first order of business.

Trade away young star players for budget space! The King is dead, long live the King.


Yeah no chance of that happening at all.

Formy would be the guy to move up into the top 6, and he already plays PK. He’d also be a PP option before Paul because he is a better offensive player.

Paul would absolutely get grinding and checking minutes, but would be playing 4th line minutes with PK time on a healthy roster that had Formy and DBC.

The legend of Nick Paul continues to grow…

I had so many arguements with people about Nick Paul who wanted to get rid of him for yrs & I don't remember very many people coming to his defence. Now it seems a number of people who used to want him gone are blaming the GM for getting rid of him because he is doing well in Tampa. Monday night quarterbacks.

 

[JD1]

I had so many arguements with people about Nick Paul who wanted to get rid of him for yrs & I don't remember very many people coming to his defence. Now it seems a number of people who used to want him gone are blaming the GM for getting rid of him because he is doing well in Tampa. Monday night quarterbacks.

And on the flip side, I was with you in defending Paul and recall citing him as the top faceoff man in the OHL according to a coach's poll but I'm ok with him having been moved. I didn't want the term.

I really liked Paul. He was a big dude that could hustle and he never took a night off. Career shooting percentage of 7% in Ottawa but has 19% in TB. Idk, maybe he figured it out. Who knows.

I do get a kick out of this board though. Joseph came in and played well off the bat last year and everyone sang his praises

 

[Micklebot]

I had so many arguements with people about Nick Paul who wanted to get rid of him for yrs & I don't remember very many people coming to his defence. Now it seems a number of people who used to want him gone are blaming the GM for getting rid of him because he is doing well in Tampa. Monday night quarterbacks.

He was a good third liner for us, what he's doing in Tbay is fantastic but completely unexpected imo. He brought great value to the third line but I don't mind the trade even if it hasn't worked out yet.

Joseph is younger, and seems to be getting written off after 25 games on a disfunctional team.

Meanwhile, we have some depth on the left side that could have pushed Paul out anyways, if Greig pans out and DeBrincat re-signs, where does Paul fit?

 

[aragorn]

He was a good third liner for us, what he's doing in Tbay is fantastic but completely unexpected imo. He brought great value to the third line but I don't mind the trade even if it hasn't worked out yet.

Joseph is younger, and seems to be getting written off after 25 games on a disfunctional team.

Meanwhile, we have some depth on the left side that could have pushed Paul out anyways, if Greig pans out and DeBrincat re-signs, where does Paul fit?

Paul has always been a bottom six player to me & he would fit on the 4th line here although he wanted to much money for that role. My point was that no one was defending him a couple of yrs ago & now it seems so many were upset with the trade. IMO Joseph is likely to get traded at some point maybe with Thomson given he is not waiver exempt next yr hopefully for a RD. Joseph, Luccini, Gambrell, Motte & Kelly all seem like the same kind of player, very fast, good defensively with next to zero offence. They need more offence from the bottom six.

 

[JD1]

Paul has always been a bottom six player to me & he would fit on the 4th line here although he wanted to much money for that role. My point was that no one was defending him a couple of yrs ago & now it seems so many were upset with the trade. IMO Joseph is likely to get traded at some point maybe with Thomson given he is not waiver exempt next yr hopefully for a RD. Joseph, Luccini, Gambrell, Motte & Kelly all seem like the same kind of player, very fast, good defensively with next to zero offence. They need more offence from the bottom six.

Well, let's see what we can get out of Pinto driving 3rd line offence. I'm inclined to think that is really going to help.

The other thing that can be done is moving Joseph up and a top 6 winger down, creating 3 duos
Norris Tkachuk north south
Stuetzle Cat east west
Pinto Batherson north south

And trying more offence that way. We lost a ton of options when Norris got hurt

 

[Micklebot]

Paul has always been a bottom six player to me & he would fit on the 4th line here although he wanted to much money for that role. My point was that no one was defending him a couple of yrs ago & now it seems so many were upset with the trade. IMO Joseph is likely to get traded at some point maybe with Thomson given he is not waiver exempt next yr hopefully for a RD. Joseph, Luccini, Gambrell, Motte & Kelly all seem like the same kind of player, very fast, good defensively with next to zero offence. They need more offence from the bottom six.

Joseph has a bit of offense and more speed, I think there's more of a chance of him working in a middle six role than the others but he's certainly expendable and I agree he's likely to get traded.

I really would have liked to see him play with Pinto and Formenton all year, I think that had the makings of an elite third line

 

[aragorn]

Well, let's see what we can get out of Pinto driving 3rd line offence. I'm inclined to think that is really going to help.

The other thing that can be done is moving Joseph up and a top 6 winger down, creating 3 duos
Norris Tkachuk north south
Stuetzle Cat east west
Pinto Batherson north south

And trying more offence that way. We lost a ton of options when Norris got hurt

And not having Formenton this yr hurt as well given he was really coming along at LW. They really just need a scoring RW to give them 3 good lines if or when Formenton returns. Would like to see them give Sokolov a shot for a dozen games or so. Motte has been better than some of the others, he has some offence to his game as does Brassard although he is getting long in the tooth. Greig could help too.

 

[swiftwin]

What's interesting to me is that you feel we don't need Debrincat's offense, meanwhile we're 2nd last in the league in 5v5 GF (3rd last per 60), and we were 3rd last last year. Offense is absolutely a problem, surpringly we actually have better GA numbers both in terms of GA/60 (6th last) and xGA (18th best).

Yeah, it's a bit amusing to see how much the narrative keep shifting.

Before the season started, Dorion was an idiot for not getting a top 4 defenseman. Now that Sanderson has proven to be one, and Hamonic has proven to be "good enough" in his role, the narrative has shifted to how Dorion was a moron for the lack of depth up front. Ignoring how 3 of our best defensive forwards have been out of the line up for a long time (Norris, Motte and Joseph). Soon, the narrative will shift that we're not getting enough scoring, and that we should have gotten a better offensive forward to replace Formenton.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Hamonic + Talbot for 6m

When a better job could be done by Gustavsson and some random depth low wage D.

Just Dorion Things.

 

[swiftwin]

Hamonic + Talbot for 6m

When a better job could be done by Gustavsson and some random depth low wage D.

Just Dorion Things.

Gustavsson + MDZ circa 2022 begs to differ.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Gustavsson + MDZ circa 2022 begs to differ.

Yea cuz MDZ f***ing sucks lol.

Just more Dorion things.

Couldn't identify good defenceman and hockey sense if they were a 18 wheeler about to crash into him.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Live look at our dog getting prepped for the fight...

 

[L'Aveuglette]

We're not in any kind of a "dog fight" with Florida lol. Where are they getting this BS?

 

[Big Muddy]

The only "dog fight" we are in is to see if we will draft 8th/9th overall versus 10th/11th or something along those lines.