The Fall of Pierre

[Senscore]

After 7 years of drafting players at the draft we have 2 players that play defense on a nightly basis for us Chabot and Sanderson. And Sanderson only started playing for us this year.
After 6 years of rebuilding look at our defensemen.
Not good enough is an understatement. Pathetic.

Imagine if we took Drysdale.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

This is pretty disingenuous. We have depth who are out because they're injured or had a contract dispute. If Motte, Joseph, Norris and Formenton were all healthy and signed, today, would any of Gambrell, Kelly, Watson, Brassard be playing? What's the point you're making? That we didn't have 4 more high quality bottom 6 forwards ready and waiting in Belleville? Brassard came on a PTO. Gambrell signed as the 13F. Kelly and Watson are 4th liners. What exactly is the expectation here and why is it so unrealistic?

you are being disingenuous.

it would have cost nothing to take those players, and if we had picked those players we would have insane depth when healthy and would have good depth even with those injuries we picked up. like you should after spending 7 years in the basement and a firesale.

instead we are wherever we are right now.

i know you some of you worship these guys because they are "professionals". but having a management this dumb isn't normal, raise your standards.

 

[bert]

OMG, that lost 2nd round draft pick was the last piece of the puzzle…….Would have been the difference maker for this and subsequent seasons, and multiple Stanley Cup Wins. View attachment 636672

What a bad take. You're missing the point completely. In making such a post you're also suggesting that this was the only error made and that the teams in a good place right now.

 

[Icelevel]

The fall of Pierre should have started and ENDED with the zibanejad trade. Or at least the stone trade.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The fall of Pierre should have started and ENDED with the zibanejad trade. Or at least the stone trade.

That first one was the worst one.

 

[Big Muddy]

OMG, that lost 2nd round draft pick was the last piece of the puzzle…….Would have been the difference maker for this and subsequent seasons, and multiple Stanley Cup Wins. View attachment 636672

You thought just focusing on the Stepan acquisition was wise and wouldn't lead to a broader discussion on the other moves made?

 

[Xspyrit]

My understanding was that Conner Brown was going to free agency regardless of what Paul did? He believed his numbers were good enough to be a top six player & get paid like one. The Joseph for Paul is definitely one that pissed me off. I liked Paul who could play up & down the lineup at LW or C but a lot of people on here didn't & wanted him traded & liked the Joseph acquisition as I remember it. If they bring up Sokolov he will likely replace Joseph on the 3rd line RW IMO he would bring much more offence. Next yr's TC will be interesting given there will be a few guys that will need to go through waivers if they don't make Ottawa to go to Belleville.

Benjiv1 commented on this before, apparently Brown was unhappy that Nick was traded. Understandably, they had crazy good chemistry and were probably very good friends

Of course, if Brown was looking at 6.0 AAV, then you trade him, but I think he could have been extended reasonably. Not saying it would have been easy for our cap next season as we're still cleaning a LOT of past Dorion mistakes.

I hope I'm wrong on Sokolov but I don't think he'll play in the NHL very long

The rumours that Brown was going to test free agency only came out in the summer after Paul was traded, don't recall who, but one of the sens insider posters suggested Brown was upset about Paul being traded.

Benjiv1

The Duchene trade is a good example of not being able to evaluate their own roster.

It doesn't look like Boucher's coaching effect going down and the health status of the roster were put in consideration much. A lot of guys were banged up, MacArthur's career was over too. Getting Duchene was not a bad idea in itself but there was some key roster holes to fix and giving up our first was very risky. It just blew up in our face (which is Dorion's specialty)

 

[swiftwin]

Sorry, but I just don't see how we can keep Paul, Brown, sign Giroux, AND acquire a top 4. That's just not possible.

To me, Giroux was brought in as Brown's replacement. Joseph as Paul's replacement, which left us with enough room to extend Zub, and extra space for a future top 4.

 

[Xspyrit]

Sorry, but I just don't see how we can keep Paul, Brown, sign Giroux, AND acquire a top 4. That's just not possible.

With Dorion at the helm, true.

With another GM, who knows? Who knows if we'd have that much money in dead cap, if we'd have Zaitsev and Hamonic, Kelly and Gambrell on 1-ways, Talbot instead of Gustavsson, etc

 

[ksens]

Imagine if we took Drysdale.

We'd have a different player who could also be playing in the top 4 for us? He's out long term with a shoulder injury, but he's an NHL defenseman and was a good pick for the Ducks.

 

[Ouroboros]

Of course, if Brown was looking at 6.0 AAV, then you trade him, but I think he could have been extended reasonably.

We know this isn't the case, though. We know that Connor Brown wasn't interested in extending with the Ottawa Senators because that's what Friedman reported during the Cup Finals. When the Senators approached him to begin talks he made it clear that he wanted to test the market.

So this put the team in a pretty difficult spot - either you move him during the summer for a somewhat 'soft' deal or you keep him as an own rental and assume all the risk that comes with that. They chose to move him which I think is prudent.

Imagine that the Senators decided to keep Brown for this season and he blew out his knee and walked for nothing this summer. The same people criticizing Dorion for shipping Brown out last summer would posting endlessly about how the GM lacks foresight and it was obvious that the situation should have been dealt with earlier. The poor guy can't win.

When it comes to Nick Paul I think the Senators made a fair offer for the player. Garrioch reported that the last offer to him was 11M over 4 years, or 2.75M per. Seems fairly reasonable for a guy that was a ~25 point bottom six/PK forward for us. He figured he could get more money and it worked out for him. People are just freaking out because the guy is on a shooting percentage heater since getting to Tampa. The guy was a 7% shooter over 225 games in Ottawa and now all of a sudden he's a 20% shooter? Nah. Same player he's always been.

 

[swiftwin]

With Dorion at the helm, true.

With another GM, who knows? Who knows if we'd have that much money in dead cap, if we'd have Zaitsev and Hamonic, Kelly and Gambrell on 1-ways, Talbot instead of Gustavsson, etc

None of those things are relevant. We are clearly talking about our cap situation next season. Even with those 4 players gone, we do not have the cap space for all of Paul, Brown, Giroux, Zub and an additional ~4m top 4 defenseman.

 

[Beech]

None of those things are relevant. We are clearly talking about our cap situation next season. Even with those 4 players gone, we do not have the cap space for all of Paul, Brown, Giroux, Zub and an additional ~4m top 4 defenseman.

Which is where the argument must return to. A successful franchise needs a small chunk of productive players on ELC or on bridge deals.

Which is what this organization has been failing at since the early 2000's. 21 years by my counting.

A bloody, steady, f'ng reliable stream of young players must come in. You need 3-4 ElC, bridge guys filling spots on your team and be productive. I mean top 4 D, top 6 forwards. So of the ten, 3-4 must be making small coin.

On D, we have Sanderson. No one else.
On forward!!!!!. Pinto, who we are now starting to see as a #3C. So technically, no one.

So, all the Sens draft defenders. Please tell me where the 2018-2021 drafts are? And how many will be here to fill up the 3-4 spots on the top 10? 2-3 more had better get here next year. Who the F, really sees that?

the Fall of Pierre, is the 3rd chapter in the book of failed Ottawa Management; Muckler, Murray, Doron. 21 f***ing years. At this rate, the Bible will have less chapters.

 

[Tuna99]

This is pretty disingenuous. We have depth who are out because they're injured or had a contract dispute. If Motte, Joseph, Norris and Formenton were all healthy and signed, today, would any of Gambrell, Kelly, Watson, Brassard be playing? What's the point you're making? That we didn't have 4 more high quality bottom 6 forwards ready and waiting in Belleville? Brassard came on a PTO. Gambrell signed as the 13F. Kelly and Watson are 4th liners. What exactly is the expectation here and why is it so unrealistic?

I think the point is the bottom 6 players even when healthy don’t impact NHL games towards the Sens winning. Injuries or not, the bottom 6 is weak and it was created by the GM, so he deserves criticism for having a weak and ineffective bottom 6. He traded Paul and Brown who were cornerstone players, didn’t replace Formenton and you’re left with a bunch of 4th line players and washed up vets who can’t be an effective bottom 6

 

[BankStreetParade]

I think the point is the bottom 6 players even when healthy don’t impact NHL games towards the Sens winning. Injuries or not, the bottom 6 is weak and it was created by the GM, so he deserves criticism for having a weak and ineffective bottom 6. He traded Paul and Brown who were cornerstone players, didn’t replace Formenton and you’re left with a bunch of 4th line players and washed up vets who can’t be an effective bottom 6

Sorry, but based on what? Motte and Joseph were both plus players when they were in the lineup. And it should be noted they were the only 2 plus players on the roster. Pinto on the third line was effective and productive. Formenton, if he had signed, would have made a great third line with Pinto and Joseph.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

What a bad take. You're missing the point completely. In making such a post you're also suggesting that this was the only error made and that the teams in a good place right now.

you’ve missed the satirical point I was making. gigabytes of the hfboards served were filled with the complaints over this particular 2nd round draft pick traded away by PD.

Also it’s not me suggesting anything, it you with your incredible mind reading abilities thinking you know what I am or am not inferring….. when in fact it was nothing more than a bit of humour, that perhaps was not picked up on.

My posts starts with "Oh and speaking of microcosm of Dorion's tenure" and he didn't bother to look at what microcosm means

Oh well this one never disappoints, just a lost cause (and racist to boot) not even worth responding

omg, are you kidding? How the heck do you see racism in the post?

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

6th on his team in scoring this season with no PP time. But Dorion and Mann think they are smartest in the room lol.

 

[Xspyrit]

We know this isn't the case, though. We know that Connor Brown wasn't interested in extending with the Ottawa Senators because that's what Friedman reported during the Cup Finals. When the Senators approached him to begin talks he made it clear that he wanted to test the market.

So this put the team in a pretty difficult spot - either you move him during the summer for a somewhat 'soft' deal or you keep him as an own rental and assume all the risk that comes with that. They chose to move him which I think is prudent.

Imagine that the Senators decided to keep Brown for this season and he blew out his knee and walked for nothing this summer. The same people criticizing Dorion for shipping Brown out last summer would posting endlessly about how the GM lacks foresight and it was obvious that the situation should have been dealt with earlier. The poor guy can't win.

When it comes to Nick Paul I think the Senators made a fair offer for the player. Garrioch reported that the last offer to him was 11M over 4 years, or 2.75M per. Seems fairly reasonable for a guy that was a ~25 point bottom six/PK forward for us. He figured he could get more money and it worked out for him. People are just freaking out because the guy is on a shooting percentage heater since getting to Tampa. The guy was a 7% shooter over 225 games in Ottawa and now all of a sudden he's a 20% shooter? Nah. Same player he's always been.

Well, I am basing myself on what Benjiv1 once said. I have seen him call a lot of stuff in advance in the past so I tend to believe him.

But anyway, I'd rather get absolutely nothing and use him as a FULL year rental when our bottom-6 is clearly way below average, healthy or not (the TC scandal news had already surfaced when the Brown trade happened)

Dorion traded a recent 2nd round pick to get a past his prime Alex Burrows 6 years ago, why wouldn't we value Connor Brown more than a 2024 second when we are in a dire need for quality middle six players?

By the time that 2024 second round pick is ready to make an impact (IF it ever does), Batherson, Chabot and Tkachuk contracts will have expired... I don't see this as prudent when you need to get out of the NHL bottom-NHL for a few years now.

Butterfly effect makes it that Brown probably won't have been injured (it took almost 6 seasons before he missed his first NHL game), even if he did, then just too bad. At least we put ourselves in a much better position to be good, particularly after potentially losing Formenton

Note that I have never criticized Dorion for things he has no control about and injuries are one of these things. Roster construction and injury prevention is his responsibility though

2.75 AAV for Paul was lowball. A good pro scouting staff would have seen more in the player and pay him like the Lightning does. That's why they made the finals 3 years in a row and we are about to miss the playoffs for the 6th straight season. Look at how they snagged Hagel too. Brisebois is what I call a good GM

Personally, I am not freaking out about his offensive production. I am very annoyed because we are terrible 5 on 5

None of those things are relevant. We are clearly talking about our cap situation next season. Even with those 4 players gone, we do not have the cap space for all of Paul, Brown, Giroux, Zub and an additional ~4m top 4 defenseman.

ok so you opted to not highlight the term "dead cap"?

And how is Zaitsev not relevant? He has a 4.5 AAV next season... Dorion will probably have to waste more assets/money to fix just another one of his mistakes. Hope that the team gets sold before that though

Kelly is on a 1-way next season too

That being said, from your post I quoted (which was a new post, not a response to another post), I had no idea you were talking about only next season.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

6th on his team in scoring this season with no PP time. But Dorion and Mann think they are smartest in the room lol.

The one time our scouts don't get excited over size and it bites them in the ass.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[JD1]

We know this isn't the case, though. We know that Connor Brown wasn't interested in extending with the Ottawa Senators because that's what Friedman reported during the Cup Finals. When the Senators approached him to begin talks he made it clear that he wanted to test the market.

So this put the team in a pretty difficult spot - either you move him during the summer for a somewhat 'soft' deal or you keep him as an own rental and assume all the risk that comes with that. They chose to move him which I think is prudent.

Imagine that the Senators decided to keep Brown for this season and he blew out his knee and walked for nothing this summer. The same people criticizing Dorion for shipping Brown out last summer would posting endlessly about how the GM lacks foresight and it was obvious that the situation should have been dealt with earlier. The poor guy can't win.

When it comes to Nick Paul I think the Senators made a fair offer for the player. Garrioch reported that the last offer to him was 11M over 4 years, or 2.75M per. Seems fairly reasonable for a guy that was a ~25 point bottom six/PK forward for us. He figured he could get more money and it worked out for him. People are just freaking out because the guy is on a shooting percentage heater since getting to Tampa. The guy was a 7% shooter over 225 games in Ottawa and now all of a sudden he's a 20% shooter? Nah. Same player he's always been.

This is a truly well written post.

Unfortunately it'll be lost on half the people that post here

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

This is a truly well written post.

Unfortunately it'll be lost on half the people that post here

Uhhh why are you guys pretending that we got back for Brown was 1st + top prospect.


It was a second....

No one would could care if used Brown this season and lost him for nothing.

Doubly so because Dorion must have known Formenton would not play this season.

 

[bicboi64]

I'd be criticizing Dorion for not using Brown to get an RD. Keeping him and him getting injured, especially after the situation with Formenton would've been understandable. But in that situation I'd still be smack talking him for not using Brown as a trade chip for D help.

 

[JD1]

Uhhh why are you guys pretending that we got back for Brown was 1st + top prospect.


It was a second....

No one would could care if used Brown this season and lost him for nothing.

Doubly so because Dorion must have known Formenton would not play this season.

I'm not pretending anything. I didn't mention Brown, the return on Brown, what could have been, should have been, might have been. I mentioned nothing like that.

What I did mention was that post being lost on people.

Now, as to whether you are one of those people, well, my post was two sentences. You completely drew your own conclusions about something I didn't post. Then you forward projected that we could have kept Brown and this board would be ok with losing him for nothing.

Losing Brown for nothing and the board being ok with it is probably THE stupidest thing I've read on this board this season. Congratulations. In the one sentence you've established that you have so little credibility that your content isn't worthy of being read.