The Curious Case of Mitch Marner discussion thread.

[Stephen]

And then drafted Bergeron, Kessel, Marchand & Lucic over 2 drafts and signed Chara.

Think long term

Bergeron was already in the system when they traded Thornton so they could see a Plan B. But the benefit of making that trade is it freed them up to sign Chara AND Savard which sparked their turnaround along with the magical draft of 2006 which brought Kessel, Marchand and Lucic.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I have been watching and following Marner since he was in juniors, and back then he was super clutch (memorial cup MVP, etc.).

Awful to see what he has become. Dude needs to put on some muscle (15-20 pounds) for the NHL playoffs and get stronger and worry less about his damn hair. He needs to compete harder and go into the dirty areas. It's the only way. He definitely needs to evolve.

How much does anyone want to bet that the whole "Mitch Mullet" thing was going to be monetized by MM and his group? Nothing he does seems genuine and it always seems to have an angle to it for more dollars. I, for one thing, will avoid any product he is pushing because its Mitch...and if a company doesn't actually know who they are paying and his greed issues...well, they aren't worth my business.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I don't think we need an $11 million winger feeding an $11 million center. Spread it around.

You're not really and $11m player if you need another $11m player to help you. That part is obvious. What happened to JT and him making scrubs have career years? Anyone?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

We can and will will, f*** our cap situation. Not only did he overpay he gave them gobs of money up front. Total incompetence. If he had bridged Marner, there wouldn't be such an outcry to get rid of him.

The fun part in the money up front deal is that they are getting killed on higher escrow right now. It would have actually been better to have a back loaded deal when Covid came around because hopefully the escrow will be lower after paying back the owners.

The other part of Dubas's deals that kills me is the front loading...it is supposed to be an extra given to a player to make up for a shortcoming in the contract. So, they get all the money they wanted pretty much AND they get the extra money up front....great.

I want Dubas to sell me a new car...I wonder what goodies I will end up getting for free from him.

 

[PromisedLand]

How much does anyone want to bet that the whole "Mitch Mullet" thing was going to be monetized by MM and his group? Nothing he does seems genuine and it always seems to have an angle to it for more dollars. I, for one thing, will avoid any product he is pushing because its Mitch...and if a company doesn't actually know who they are paying and his greed issues...well, they aren't worth my business.

Majority of Leafs nation is so pissed and disgusted by Marner that they wont buy or even look at products/servcies that money mitch is advertising.

These firms shelling the moolah to money mitch eventually with cut all the deals and give it to someone else. These firms are not going to keep showcasing a dude who has disgusted majority of the fanbase

 

[Gary Nylund]

The fun part in the money up front deal is that they are getting killed on higher escrow right now. It would have actually been better to have a back loaded deal when Covid came around because hopefully the escrow will be lower after paying back the owners.

The other part of Dubas's deals that kills me is the front loading...it is supposed to be an extra given to a player to make up for a shortcoming in the contract. So, they get all the money they wanted pretty much AND they get the extra money up front....great.

I want Dubas to sell me a new car...I wonder what goodies I will end up getting for free from him.

That really pisses me off as well and seems like a clear sign that Dubas badly messed up these negotiations.

 

[The Iceman]

The fun part in the money up front deal is that they are getting killed on higher escrow right now. It would have actually been better to have a back loaded deal when Covid came around because hopefully the escrow will be lower after paying back the owners.

The other part of Dubas's deals that kills me is the front loading...it is supposed to be an extra given to a player to make up for a shortcoming in the contract. So, they get all the money they wanted pretty much AND they get the extra money up front....great.

I want Dubas to sell me a new car...I wonder what goodies I will end up getting for free from him.

Doesn't front loading make a player much easier to trade at the backend of the deal?
So a $5 million cap hit in Freddy had last year had something like a $1 million actual payout. Makes the player WAY more valuable.

seems like a good thing to me...

 

[ACC1224]

Doesn't front loading make a player much easier to trade at the backend of the deal?
So a $5 million cap hit in Freddy had last year had something like a $1 million actual payout. Makes the player WAY more valuable.

seems like a good thing to me...

Me too. Dubites use to tell us all the time how this was all part of his genius.

 

[Stonehands1990]

HA, not sure what players Boston drafts has to do with regretting trading a HOF player for a bucket of pucks...

And Bergeron and Joe played together in boston.

Simple. People think Joe is a HOF caliber player based on points. But in the playoffs Pavelski carried that SJ team annually. Boston made the right call period.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Doesn't front loading make a player much easier to trade at the backend of the deal?
So a $5 million cap hit in Freddy had last year had something like a $1 million actual payout. Makes the player WAY more valuable.

seems like a good thing to me...

If Andersen was still a good player, probably. I guess nobody was willing to take a chance on Andersen turning things around even though he had very little salary owed. Or the teams that would were on Andersen's NTC.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Bergeron was already in the system when they traded Thornton so they could see a Plan B. But the benefit of making that trade is it freed them up to sign Chara AND Savard which sparked their turnaround along with the magical draft of 2006 which brought Kessel, Marchand and Lucic.

They looked at Thornton the way we should be looking at Marner. Can’t win with this guy let’s move on. Not sure how they only managed that dog shit return but that tells you the landscape of what other GMs were thinking about Thornton

It seems like we are building the next Canucks or Sharks team here in Toronto. Cheers to all the 1st and 2nd round losses ahead of us

I was hoping for a Washington build at least where they got heavy later but we’ll see

 

[The Iceman]

If Andersen was still a good player, probably. I guess nobody was willing to take a chance on Andersen turning things around even though he had very little salary owed. Or the teams that would were on Andersen's NTC.

Mitch is owed $8 million in real $$$ each of his last 3 seasons. A carrott for acquiring teams.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Simple. People think Joe is a HOF caliber player based on points. But in the playoffs Pavelski carried that SJ team annually. Boston made the right call period.

We've had Marner for 6 years (in the NHL for 5).

Boston had Thornton for 7.5 years and he was in the NHL all 7.5 years and he was moved after a stretch of disappointing playoff runs.

It likely won't happen this year, but it could happen next year. That is before his NMC kicks in. Teams would only have to pay ~16 mill to Marner over his last 3 years of his deal.

I guess it also shows that pure playmakers never really have a place as "go-to" players in the league unless you are Backstrom or Datsyuk level. Maybe Marner gets there some day, but I doubt it. Doesn't have the hands, IQ, or skating.

 

[VanW27]

Mitch is owed $8 million in real $$$ each of his last 3 seasons. A carrott for acquiring teams.

24.8million total over the next 4 years once his signing bonus is paid out at the end of the month - That's just over 6 million/year

Also the added benefit for an acquiring team to be paying a star player league minimum over the course of the upcoming season, with money still likely tight with lost revenues the last couple years.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Mitch is owed $8 million in real $$$ each of his last 3 seasons. A carrott for acquiring teams.

Yes, probably very attractive.

Boston moved Thornton after 7.5 years. We just finished year 6 with Marner in the organization (5 with him in the NHL). Next year he still is very cheap and does not have his NMC kick in yet. We likely give it one more kick at the can before making a Thornton trade involving him.

A lot of parallels between the two it seems. Questionable playoff performances despite excellent regular seasons. Tough contract negotiations (although for different reasons). Both were in the midst of new times when it came to player pay (Thornton was traded soon after the lockout where the salary cap was introduced; Marner is in the midst of Covid affecting cap and revenues). Both are pure playmakers. Both were seen as young leaders on their teams. Leafs shift to building around Matthews, Tavares, and Nylander instead, similar to how Boston shifted to building around Bergeron and a few guys they brought in later (Chara, Savard, etc.). I guess the only thing missing is Dubas questioning Marner's leadership/character and criticizing his play, which is what happened with Thornton before he was ultimately moved. Although that does not really need to happen, at least publicly. I would not be surprised if that affected Thornton's trade value a little bit, and his return was really not that good so we should be thankful that a public shaming has not occurred to this point.

I guess the real question is whether Mike O'Connell (Dubas) is making that deal. O'Connell was eventually replaced by Jeff Gorton, but they made the decision together. I imagine Dubas would be the one who can make that deal, but it would be his last major one if the team can't find its footing quickly.

 

[Stonehands1990]

We've had Marner for 6 years (in the NHL for 5).

Boston had Thornton for 7.5 years and he was in the NHL all 7.5 years and he was moved after a stretch of disappointing playoff runs.

It likely won't happen this year, but it could happen next year. That is before his NMC kicks in. Teams would only have to pay ~16 mill to Marner over his last 3 years of his deal.

I guess it also shows that pure playmakers never really have a place as "go-to" players in the league unless you are Backstrom or Datsyuk level. Maybe Marner gets there some day, but I doubt it. Doesn't have the hands, IQ, or skating.

I think Marner needs to develop his lower body ala Marchand. You get hit but you don’t go flying into the boards. Even Kane and Kucherov. You hit these guys but they don’t get blown up because a big strong lower half keeps them balanced plus gives them the explosiveness to separate

 

[Curt]

I think Marner needs to develop his lower body ala Marchand. You get hit but you don’t go flying into the boards. Even Kane and Kucherov. You hit these guys but they don’t get blown up because a big strong lower half keeps them balanced plus gives them the explosiveness to separate

Lol at marner having the work ethic for that. Dude has been Paid. He doesn’t care anymore

 

[Superstar]

Doesn't front loading make a player much easier to trade at the backend of the deal?
So a $5 million cap hit in Freddy had last year had something like a $1 million actual payout. Makes the player WAY more valuable.

seems like a good thing to me...

How about don't overpay and front load? That would be even more attractive, right? You would think the advantage of front loading players with huge signing bonuses is so that we could sign them to fair deals and not have to overpay. Dubas overpaid and front loaded...he's incompetent.

 

[myleafs]

Mitch is owed $8 million in real $$$ each of his last 3 seasons. A carrott for acquiring teams.

24.75 milly after getting his bonus this yr over 4 yrs = 6.18 per yr average.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Doesn't front loading make a player much easier to trade at the backend of the deal?
So a $5 million cap hit in Freddy had last year had something like a $1 million actual payout. Makes the player WAY more valuable.

seems like a good thing to me...

It’s just too bad that Freddy was playing like a player only being paid $1 million.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Mitch is owed $8 million in real $$$ each of his last 3 seasons. A carrott for acquiring teams.

But they still need to account for his cap hit.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Doesn't front loading make a player much easier to trade at the backend of the deal?
So a $5 million cap hit in Freddy had last year had something like a $1 million actual payout. Makes the player WAY more valuable.

seems like a good thing to me...

It is supposed to be a carrot for the player giving up something. That's why most teams don't do it for nothing. We can use that to our advantage to trade them ...but it doesn't mean much if they have a NTC or NMC and you paid out all the money ahead of the contract.

 

[Superstar]

It is supposed to be a carrot for the player giving up something. That's why most teams don't do it for nothing. We can use that to our advantage to trade them ...but it doesn't mean much if they have a NTC or NMC and you paid out all the money ahead of the contract.

I really don't understand the NMC in the last year of Matthews contract and the last 2 years of Marner's contract...these guys will be in their mid-20's...not like they have family and kids they have to uproot...why do they need a NMC? If they can't live up to their contracts, the Leafs should have the right and priority to trade them...Dubas gives them huge money and walks them right into UFA status at such a young age, but can't trade them if they don't perform...what a loser GM...it's a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[hamzarocks]

It’s just too bad that Freddy was playing like a player only being paid $1 million.

Last offseason he surely had to have a strong market. His regular-season performance wasn't great but he was still a starting goalie by name and play with a .909 despite injuries. He had a strong playoff series outside of the ill-timed poor goals.

Dubas gambled completely wrong in keeping Andersen. It was an illogical move then and with hindsight becomes even dumber.

We acquired Campbell who was a few years younger than Andersen, he had a relation with Dubas/Keefe and it was emerging that they viewed him as a potential 1A to starting-caliber goalie

Andersen was a 1-year rental, and we knew that we had no chance of signing him with the flat cap. If he returned to form and was a .916-.919 goalie he is getting a pay raise to 6M-7M which we absolutely could not afford. Trading him would have saved us 5M and allowed us to pull the Weegar trade and get Brodie and a 1-1.5M backup to run tandem with Campbell

We knew we were going to be playing in the North Division, which was the weakest division in the NHL. We didn't need high-quality and proven goalies in that division to come 1st to 3rd. We could have moved away from a proven guy in Andersen and had a tandem of Campbell + UFA (Mike Smith, Keith Kinkaid, Malcom Subban etc)

We already saw the media, and fans had turned on him and were actively blaming/faulting him for th series loss to CBJ and had reached the conclusion he was a playoff choker who we can't win with. His morale and overall confidence were lower and it was time for a move.

His value last offseason was probably a pair of 2nd round picks, or at worse a 2nd a mid pick. We should have dealt him, gotten value and used the 5M in savings to fit in Weegar + UFA goalie

 

[Captain Crunch]

Last offseason he surely had to have a strong market. His regular-season performance wasn't great but he was still a starting goalie by name and play with a .909 despite injuries. He had a strong playoff series outside of the ill-timed poor goals.

Dubas gambled completely wrong in keeping Andersen. It was an illogical move then and with hindsight becomes even dumber.

We acquired Campbell who was a few years younger than Andersen, he had a relation with Dubas/Keefe and it was emerging that they viewed him as a potential 1A to starting-caliber goalie

Andersen was a 1-year rental, and we knew that we had no chance of signing him with the flat cap. If he returned to form and was a .916-.919 goalie he is getting a pay raise to 6M-7M which we absolutely could not afford. Trading him would have saved us 5M and allowed us to pull the Weegar trade and get Brodie and a 1-1.5M backup to run tandem with Campbell

We knew we were going to be playing in the North Division, which was the weakest division in the NHL. We didn't need high-quality and proven goalies in that division to come 1st to 3rd. We could have moved away from a proven guy in Andersen and had a tandem of Campbell + UFA (Mike Smith, Keith Kinkaid, Malcom Subban etc)

We already saw the media, and fans had turned on him and were actively blaming/faulting him for th series loss to CBJ and had reached the conclusion he was a playoff choker who we can't win with. His morale and overall confidence were lower and it was time for a move.

His value last offseason was probably a pair of 2nd round picks, or at worse a 2nd a mid pick. We should have dealt him, gotten value and used the 5M in savings to fit in Weegar + UFA goalie

You may be right. I just don’t think his value was as high as you think it was. But again, I could be wrong.