The Curious Case of Mitch Marner discussion thread.

[Curt]

The two biggest debates are Mitch Marner and Timothy Liljegren.

dont compare poor Timmy to that selfish clown marner

 

[Curt]

Like I mentioned earlier, I just don’t see the Leafs beating TB with the way AM and MM are playing in the playoffs.
The thing that I am afraid the most is, they are used to being bounced after the first round. I think the body language after Game 5 said it all, a lot of them were okay they lost that game after coming back to tie the game snd force OT. It was pretty much the same after Game 4 in the playins when they came back and won in OT. It seemed like in their mind, as long as they showed they tried, everything is okay. Which is wrong.

Yep. Marner flat out never even showed up for the series. He was garbage from game one the past 2 playoff series. It’s no coincidence his play stops at the same time as the pay cheques

 

[Dekes For Days]

Mackinnon is a player, not a GM.

Yes, a player who won zero playoff series during his first 5 seasons. Which, according to many here, means that he is doomed to failure forever.

 

[Gabriel426]

Neither player was remotely close to the player Marner is when they were traded, and Duchene asked for a trade. Both players were also traded as they were approaching UFA and the team was non-competitive, which is not the same as a team trading a younger and far superior player, who has 4 years left on his deal, while competitive.

Just pointing out the Avs traded two of their core. Doesn’t matter how old they were or why, they didn’t/couldn’t keep their core bc their core wasn’t working.
TB did the same, I think Stamkos and Hedman, maybe Palat too were the only players left from before.
Green and Semen were core players for the Cap at one point too.
Point is the core of a team will change if they can’t get the job done.
It could be AM who gets traded

 

[Gabriel426]

Leafs actually stack up pretty good to TB ... Toronto Maple Leafs vs Tampa Bay Lightning

Regular season

 

[Curt]

Yes, a player who won zero playoff series during his first 5 seasons. Which, according to many here, means that he is doomed to failure forever.

No one cares about the 5 playoff series. People care about these losers getting salaries of player who have won multiple cups when they always choke the first round.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Just pointing out the Avs traded two of their core. Doesn’t matter how old they were or why, they didn’t/couldn’t keep their core bc their core wasn’t working.

Except they weren't really core-level players, let alone players near the level of Marner. It was more like us trading Kadri. And they traded them for entirely different reasons than we would be trading Marner. They didn't trade them because of a lack of playoff success. They traded Duchene because he wanted out, and they traded O'Rielly because they missed the playoffs for the 4th time in 5 years, and he was about to hit UFA.

TB did the same, I think Stamkos and Hedman, maybe Palat too were the only players left from before.
Green and Semen were core players for the Cap at one point too.

Tampa held on to Stamkos and Hedman for 11 and 10 years respectively without a cup. By "before players", I can only assume you mean Lecavalier and St Louis? Lecavalier wasn't traded - he was bought out at age 33 because Tampa had one chance to use their compliance buyout on that horrible retirement contract. Martin St Louis left at age 39. Washington didn't trade Semin or Green. They left in UFA, at age 28 and 30, after becoming shells of the players they were when they were part of their core.

These are not examples that support trading one of the best young players in the world at age 23. These are examples of players moving on at ages much older than Marner, mostly not even through trades, when they were no longer the great players they once were.

 

[Gabriel426]

Except they weren't really core-level players, let alone players near the level of Marner. It was more like us trading Kadri. And they traded them for entirely different reasons than we would be trading Marner. They didn't trade them because of a lack of playoff success. They traded Duchene because he wanted out, and they traded O'Rielly because they missed the playoffs for the 4th time in 5 years, and he was about to hit UFA.

Tampa held on to Stamkos and Hedman for 11 and 10 years respectively without a cup. By "before players", I can only assume you mean Lecavalier and St Louis? Lecavalier wasn't traded - he was bought out at age 33 because Tampa had one chance to use their compliance buyout on that horrible retirement contract. Martin St Louis left at age 39. Washington didn't trade Semin or Green. They left in UFA, at age 28 and 30, after becoming shells of the players they were when they were part of their core.

These are not examples that support trading one of the best young players in the world at age 23. These are examples of players moving on at ages much older than Marner, mostly not even through trades, when they were no longer the great players they once were.

Those are examples that teams would move on from core players if the core can’t win. Get this message through your smart brain.
It could be many reasons why teams move on from these so called CORE players. It could be bc they are no longer the player they once were or the team can’t afford them or they just want out.
Any teams could have all the talents in the World but if they can’t win the Cup as a group, part of the core will change. It doesn’t matter if the core are 24yrs old or 33 yrs old. They can’t win the Cup together, they just can’t do it. Jumbo and his Sharks were great for a long time but they couldn’t get it done and by the time the MGT tried to do something about it, their core was on their last leg and it was too late.
Same as the Nucks, they were literally the best team in Hockey for 2-3 seasons but couldn’t get it done. Their MGT trusted them too much and didn’t make the tough trades.
Having said that, trading any players is not a guarantee to win the Cup. Masai, Kawhi and the Raptors is a fairytale but even if Masai failed, have to give credits for making the tough calls.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Those are examples that teams would move on from core players if the core can’t win.

No, it's largely examples of teams who did the opposite - hang on to their primary core players forever, and also keep their secondary "core" players for years and years, even through repeated failures way worse than anything we have experienced, until they deteriorated and weren't really core players anymore, and they either:

1. Left in UFA.
2. Were bought out.
3. Demanded a trade.
4. Retired.

Or in one case, got traded as a pending UFA by a non-competitive team. Literally nothing about these examples apply to Marner, or our current situation.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No one cares about the 5 playoff series.

Seems quite a few people do, actually.

 

[Gabriel426]

No, it's largely examples of teams who did the opposite - hang on to their primary core players forever, and also keep their secondary "core" players for years and years, even through repeated failures way worse than anything we have experienced, until they deteriorated and weren't really core players anymore, and they either:

1. Left in UFA.
2. Were bought out.
3. Demanded a trade.
4. Retired.

Or in one case, got traded as a pending UFA by a non-competitive team. Literally nothing about these examples apply to Marner, or our current situation.

That’s why those teams didn’t win.
Caps and TB won because they didn’t stick with core and ride for too long.
The goal of any NHL teams is to win the Cup.
It really doesn’t matter how or whom are on the team(at least not criminals). If AM, Marner, Willie and JT need to go in order for the Leafs to win a Cup or two, who cares.
Like I said, it is not a guarantee that trading a core piece means winning a Cup or sticking with the current core means winning a Cup, if it is that easy, every teams in the league will be winning.
When something is not working, it needs to be fix. The goal for any teams is to win the Cup. MGT should be aiming to build a team that give them the best chance to win the Cup. If the players continue to underperform in playoffs, changes must be made. For my count, this core had failed for 3 years in a row. How many more chances do they get till the MGT go, wait a second, maybe the core is just not good enough.
For all the talks about players need to play for the logo on their chest instead of their name on their backs, I think some fans are just too attach to certain players and forget that we are call Leafsnation and not inset any players name Nation

 

[Dekes For Days]

Caps and TB won because they didn’t stick with core and ride for too long.

But that's not true. They stuck with their "Marner", and won. They even stuck with their secondary core pieces much longer than you're suggesting keeping our primary core piece, and only saw them leave later on in their career for entirely different reasons than your argument for trading Marner.

The goal of any NHL teams is to win the Cup.

Yep. That's why you keep your elite young superstars. To give yourself the best chance to win the cup.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Yep. Marner flat out never even showed up for the series. He was garbage from game one the past 2 playoff series. It’s no coincidence his play stops at the same time as the pay cheques

When a player is struggling conventional coaches make adjustments. Either getting a different line matchup or dropping 1 player down a line or two to get him going then either sticking with new combos or bringing the original player back. I’m not abdicating him from avoiding physical play but to me the coaching was piss poor on our end

 

[Racer88]

But that's not true. They stuck with their "Marner", and won. They even stuck with their secondary core pieces much longer than you're suggesting keeping our primary core piece, and only saw them leave later on in their career for entirely different reasons than your argument for trading Marner.

Yep. That's why you keep your elite young superstars. To give yourself the best chance to win the cup.

How many years would you give them?

 

[Gabriel426]

But that's not true. They stuck with their "Marner", and won. They even stuck with their secondary core pieces much longer than you're suggesting keeping our primary core piece, and only saw them leave later on in their career for entirely different reasons than your argument for trading Marner.

Yep. That's why you keep your elite young superstars. To give yourself the best chance to win the cup.

If they can’t get the job done, you need to find people who can. The job is the win the Cup and not have players with HOF stats.
Phil won two Cups with the Pens bc that’s the right fit for him and Pens.
I am not suggesting let’s trade them all bc nothing is guarantee. Avs/Nords traded away Sundin and Nolan and ended up winning the Cup. Maybe if Dubas trade AM and Marner for Kane and Toews the Leafs end up winning the Cup.
We keep thinking that by having more talent the team will win….but it is the right mix of talent. As of today, the Leafs core can’t even get pass the first round, they are at least two tiers below the Champs. Maybe Leafs need to trade AM and end up with a great package that help the team win the Cup down the line like the Avs with Lindros. Or they stick with the core and they become Ovie and the Caps.
Or it will take another group of players to lead the Leafs to a Cup victory.
Every action is a gamble. The fact is only the Habs made it pass the 2nd round with a 10mil plus player while the Leafs got THREE of them. Leafs might turn out the be the first team to win the Cup with 10mil plus players or the first team to trade a 10mil plus player.

 

[Bluelines]

Regular season

Yup and they play similar puck possession styles. They match up well vs each other.

 

[Bluelines]

How are people still making these excuses for this group of losers. It’s been 5 years!! These clowns have been paid, they ain’t trying any harder

How are improved stats an excuse? I think sometimes people struggle with the English language and don't understand what a word , like excuse, means.

 

[Bluelines]

Like I mentioned earlier, I just don’t see the Leafs beating TB with the way AM and MM are playing in the playoffs.
The thing that I am afraid the most is, they are used to being bounced after the first round. I think the body language after Game 5 said it all, a lot of them were okay they lost that game after coming back to tie the game snd force OT. It was pretty much the same after Game 4 in the playins when they came back and won in OT. It seemed like in their mind, as long as they showed they tried, everything is okay. Which is wrong.

What body language would you have liked to see?

 

[studebaker17]

Avs did trade away Duchense and ROR and kept Mack and Landy. So they did traded away 2 of their core 4 forwards. Which if Leafs is to do that, Leafs would trade away Marner and Willie.

Colorado was handcuffed on these accounts but all the same kind of a strange argument on ROR being traded was a positive result somehow for them . Traded for a collective bag of pucks that hasn't made any benifit to the team remotely what he brought himself . Then he went on to be a conn smyth winner and in no doubt could of been a big difference maker on the Avs playoff drives to get them past the 2nd rd .

 

[Bluelines]

No one cares about the 5 playoff series. People care about these losers getting salaries of player who have won multiple cups when they always choke the first round.

We do? When did caring about a players pay cheque become a thing?

 

[Bluelines]

If they can’t get the job done, you need to find people who can. The job is the win the Cup and not have players with HOF stats.
Phil won two Cups with the Pens bc that’s the right fit for him and Pens.
I am not suggesting let’s trade them all bc nothing is guarantee. Avs/Nords traded away Sundin and Nolan and ended up winning the Cup. Maybe if Dubas trade AM and Marner for Kane and Toews the Leafs end up winning the Cup.
We keep thinking that by having more talent the team will win….but it is the right mix of talent. As of today, the Leafs core can’t even get pass the first round, they are at least two tiers below the Champs. Maybe Leafs need to trade AM and end up with a great package that help the team win the Cup down the line like the Avs with Lindros. Or they stick with the core and they become Ovie and the Caps.
Or it will take another group of players to lead the Leafs to a Cup victory.
Every action is a gamble. The fact is only the Habs made it pass the 2nd round with a 10mil plus player while the Leafs got THREE of them. Leafs might turn out the be the first team to win the Cup with 10mil plus players or the first team to trade a 10mil plus player.

Good post.

 

[Curt]

We do? When did caring about a players pay cheque become a thing?

Since 40 pages ago. Since 2006 I would think. Jesus Paul keep up

 

[Walshy7]

When a player is struggling conventional coaches make adjustments. Either getting a different line matchup or dropping 1 player down a line or two to get him going then either sticking with new combos or bringing the original player back. I’m not abdicating him from avoiding physical play but to me the coaching was piss poor on our end

a player being paid in the top 10 in the league shouldnt need to have good coaching decisions to get going, whether keefe should have moved him or not is irrelevant Marner wanted big boy money you need to sho up and earn that money. Same for JT and Matthews obviously in JT case in general not specifically last playoff

 

[Bluelines]

Since 40 pages ago. Since 2006 I would think. Jesus Paul keep up

What did Paul do to you to make you so curt?

 

[Bluelines]

a player being paid in the top 10 in the league shouldnt need to have good coaching decisions to get going, whether keefe should have moved him or not is irrelevant Marner wanted big boy money you need to sho up and earn that money. Same for JT and Matthews obviously in JT case in general not specifically last playoff

If your line is matched up against the best defensive forward in the league + shouting against the hottest goalie in the league, you think we should just keep rolling out our shooters against that line? Isn't it a coaches job to lay out a plan that makes it easier to win? I guess McDavid and Driasaitl have not shown up, eh?