The Curious Case of Mitch Marner discussion thread.

[Dekes For Days]

Doesn't always depend on the return?

Except players with the impact and potential of Marner aren't traded by anybody, so you're essentially guaranteed to downgrade your team, unless you fluke into some player or future unexpectedly exploding in quality.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Doesn't always depend on the return?

You'd think so, wouldn't you.

And we should keep in mind that if the return freed up some cap space, what we did with that cap space would be considered part of the return as well. Just like Boston who traded Thornton and as a result were able to sign Chara.

 

[ULF_55]

It also depends if Dubas does it.

If Dubas traded away Marner tomorrow, the same crew would be in here praising Dubas.
"Brilliant move" - Dekes for Days.
"What a display of cap management" - zeke.
"He's no son of mine!" - Notsince67

Let's be honest though, if he traded marner for Cale Makar some would be claiming Dubas traded a 1st. line all star for a smurf RD defender, and they're loaded at RD with Brodie, Holl and Liljegrem. ;-)

 

[zeke]

Doesn't always depend on the return?

If we're trading him for another super elite talent, i'm listening.

If we're trading him so we can spend more money on middle six forwards, I'll pass.

 

[ULF_55]

If we're trading him for another super elite talent, i'm listening.

If we're trading him so we can spend more money on middle six forwards, I'll pass.

You can get some elite talent for less than marner's 10.9mm.

However, it would be unusual for another team to deal an elite talent for another elite talent unless it was to fill a different need, and they had an excess in one area.

Getting the best talent doesn't mean you're gonna win ... Gretzky never won after he left the Oilers, but the Oilers did.

You don't need to spend double digits to get a 1st. line player.

 

[zeke]

You can get some elite talent for less than marner's 10.9mm.

can you?

here's the list of the top-20 ppg players in hockey over the last 3 years, note that exactly 1 of them is not with the team that drafted them and he costs $11.6m until age 35.

also note that Marner is the youngest player on this list. well, other than matthews.

1. McDavid 1.61
2. Draisaitl 1.43
3. Kucherov 1.42
4. Mackinnon 1.29
5. Marchand 1.27
6. Panarin 1.26
7. Kane 1.26
8. Pastrnak 1.22
9. Crosby 1.19
10. Marner 1.16
11. Matthews 1.15
12. Rantanen 1.15
13. Huberdeau 1.12
14. Stamkos 1.12
15. Malkin 1.12
16. Barkov 1.09
17. Eichel 1.07
18. Scheifele 1.05
19. Ovechkin 1.02
20. Bergeron 1.02

 

[ULF_55]

can you?

here's the list of the top-20 ppg players in hockey over the last 3 years, note that exactly 1 of them is not with the team that drafted them and he costs $11.6m until age 35.

also note that Marner is the youngest player on this list. well, other than matthews.

1. McDavid 1.61
2. Draisaitl 1.43
3. Kucherov 1.42
4. Mackinnon 1.29
5. Marchand 1.27
6. Panarin 1.26
7. Kane 1.26
8. Pastrnak 1.22
9. Crosby 1.19
10. Marner 1.16
11. Matthews 1.15
12. Rantanen 1.15
13. Huberdeau 1.12
14. Stamkos 1.12
15. Malkin 1.12
16. Barkov 1.09
17. Eichel 1.07
18. Scheifele 1.05
19. Ovechkin 1.02
20. Bergeron 1.02

marner has the 7th. highest cap hit in the NHL.

 

[zeke]

marner has the 7th. highest cap hit in the NHL.

and adding super elite talent like him from outside the org is extremely tough.

 

[Dreakmur]

and adding super elite talent like him from outside the org is extremely tough.

If he can’t perform in the playoffs, does it matter how super elite his regular seasons are?

I realize you think he will figure it out, but I’m not so sure.

 

[ULF_55]

and adding super elite talent like him from outside the org is extremely tough.

Yes, but if you could make a better team by moving an elite talent to build a better team you wouldn't?

Remembering the goal isn't individual awards.

Don't let shiny objects distract you from the destination.

..
Tampa has elite talent upfront, on defense and in net.

Leafs not so much, kind of a huge drop off with 3 elite players up front, another 1st. liner and nothing elite elsewhere.

 

[Gary Nylund]

can you?

here's the list of the top-20 ppg players in hockey over the last 3 years, note that exactly 1 of them is not with the team that drafted them and he costs $11.6m until age 35.

also note that Marner is the youngest player on this list. well, other than matthews.

1. McDavid 1.61
2. Draisaitl 1.43
3. Kucherov 1.42
4. Mackinnon 1.29
5. Marchand 1.27
6. Panarin 1.26
7. Kane 1.26
8. Pastrnak 1.22
9. Crosby 1.19
10. Marner 1.16
11. Matthews 1.15
12. Rantanen 1.15
13. Huberdeau 1.12
14. Stamkos 1.12
15. Malkin 1.12
16. Barkov 1.09
17. Eichel 1.07
18. Scheifele 1.05
19. Ovechkin 1.02
20. Bergeron 1.02

It seems like these regular season points for individuals are blinding you to the fact that hockey is a team game, winning the cup is the goal and Marner's production drops big time the minute the playoffs start.

 

[ShaneFalco]

If he can’t perform in the playoffs, does it matter how super elite his regular seasons are?

I realize you think he will figure it out, but I’m not so sure.

Too timid too fancy too predictable

 

[zeke]

Yes, but if you could make a better team by moving an elite talent to build a better team you wouldn't?

Remembering the goal isn't individual awards.

Don't let shiny objects distract you from the destination.

Tampa has elite talent upfront, on defense and in net.

Leafs not so much, kind of a huge drop off with 3 elite players up front, another 1st. liner and nothing elite elsewhere.

we probably disagree on what Hedman is. for example, Muzzin scores just as much as he does at even strength, and does better defensively in tougher usage.

But if you are saying trade Marner for a super elite dman, again, I'm listening.

but note, Tampa only won when they had 1) impact ELC players in #2C Cirelli, #3D Sergachev, and #4D Cernak and 2) when they had a fluke cap situation that allowed them to keep an extra 3-4 contracts that they shouldn't have been able to.

They do seem to have lucked out by drafting and developing a legit super elite goalie though. That is tough to match. He might be the only one in the entire league right now. Though with goalies being voodoo, that could change for them on a dime, too.

 

[zeke]

It seems like these regular season points for individuals are blinding you to the fact that hockey is a team game, winning the cup is the goal and Marner's production drops big time the minute the playoffs start.

I don't think there's any reason to think our guys can't score in the playoffs going forward.

It would be horribly unfortunate if we drafted the only two super elite forwards i can think of that couldn't score come playoffs time their whole careers. I'm willing to bet they aren't, though.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't think there's any reason to think our guys can't score in the playoffs going forward.

It would be horribly unfortunate if we drafted the only two super elite forwards i can think of that couldn't score come playoffs time their whole careers. I'm willing to bet they aren't, though.

I'm sure they'll score at some point but for what they're being paid, they should be doing it consistently so that off years are the exception, not the norm. It takes an entire team playing well to win, the stars getting hot once in a blue moon probably won't be enough.

 

[egd27]

"super elite" .....lol

 

[Racer88]

Some posters use the regular season to show how good the Leafs are but are ignoring the fact that the games are played different and officiated different in the playoffs

 

[Racer88]

I don't think there's any reason to think our guys can't score in the playoffs going forward.

It would be horribly unfortunate if we drafted the only two super elite forwards i can think of that couldn't score come playoffs time their whole careers. I'm willing to bet they aren't, though.

Marner is basically 3 years now with only 1 in the playoffs and almost 1 year without a PP goal. At 11 million per how long should we wait?

 

[ULF_55]

we probably disagree on what Hedman is. for example, Muzzin scores just as much as he does at even strength, and does better defensively in tougher usage.

But if you are saying trade Marner for a super elite dman, again, I'm listening.

but note, Tampa only won when they had 1) impact ELC players in #2C Cirelli, #3D Sergachev, and #4D Cernak and 2) when they had a fluke cap situation that allowed them to keep an extra 3-4 contracts that they shouldn't have been able to.

They do seem to have lucked out by drafting and developing a legit super elite goalie though. That is tough to match. He might be the only one in the entire league right now. Though with goalies being voodoo, that could change for them on a dime, too.

Well, yes, getting an elite defenseman for an elite winger probably isn't realistic. Unless some think some ancient defenders might still be elite.
I wouldn't be trading a 24 year old for a 34 year old even if they were both elite.

If you want to look around the league though and find another team with as much 'elite' talent with as little success, maybe winning isn't about elite talent?

 

[zeke]

Well, yes, getting an elite defenseman for an elite winger probably isn't realistic. Unless some think some ancients defenders might still be elite.
I wouldn't be trading a 24 year old for a 34 year old even if they were both elite.

If you want to look around the league though and find another team with as much 'elite' talent with as little success, maybe winning isn't about elite talent?

pretty sure the history of cup winners is overwhelmingly the story of elite talent, despite occasional flukes like St.Louis a few years ago.

 

[nsleaf]

Wait for them to score in the playoffs, and whine about until then.

 

[ULF_55]

pretty sure the history of cup winners is overwhelmingly the story of elite talent, despite occasional flukes like St.Louis a few years ago.

I don't disagree that you'll names like find Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Toews, Hedman, Kucherov, Doughty, Chara, Lidstrom, Yzerman, Stevens, Niedermayer, ... names on the Cup.

Heck, Penguins won with 2 different goaltenders, one they let go a few years ago who was just voted Vezina winner.

Perhaps the Leafs have some internal assets that can join the team going forward, maybe Sandin at age 21 can take the first steps in that direction this year. Be nice to have a top defender in the line-up. Heck Lidstrom's 1st. year was as a 21 year old.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Marner is basically 3 years now with only 1 in the playoffs and almost 1 year without a PP goal. At 11 million per how long should we wait?

Since he never answers that question, I guess the answer is we should wait forever?

pretty sure the history of cup winners is overwhelmingly the story of elite talent, despite occasional flukes like St.Louis a few years ago.

No such thing as a fluke cup winner and elite talent is no guarantee of playoff success, you should have learned that by now. You like to dump on "Dougie's Leafs" because they had so little talent (according to you) but the team that won the cup that year had no more talent then we did.

 

[Bluebear]

Oh believe me I know the legend of Bowman and Yzerman.

But Yzerman never stopped being an elite #1 C.

And if he did make a dramatic mid career change from soft choker to gritty playoffs legend then that only shows us that we shouldn't ditch our super elite talent for some early playoffs failures.

No but perhaps we should to create Cap space and roster flexibility, There was no cap when people argued that the Wings should move on from Yzerman, so keeping him was really a no brainer.

 

[Mats13]

Only Leafs fans would hate their own superstar like this

Get a grip

He’s had trouble in the playoffs. He’s not the first player and he won’t be the last. Doesn’t change the fact that he’s a star and any trade we make with him is likely to be a trade that we lose.