The Curious Case of Mitch Marner discussion thread.

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Yeah it seems like he represents some sort of "progressive" and "analytical" side that certain fans have fallen completely for. The results have proven them wrong but they just keep going.

I wonder if they will still be around after he's gone.
The problem isn’t analytics and data. The problem is the decisions being made with them. I’m all in favour of using data to find the next Patrick Sharp etc. The problem is it seems like we just end up with Malgin, Petan and Mikeyhevs

I have zero professional experience managing a hockey team and even I could unearth these 4th liners
 
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No other city gets as many endorsements as toronto when it comes to hockey.

Both marner and matthews make 2+ mil when i doubt point gets anywhere near that.

Add on how much we front load and all the signing bonuses. The tax thing is blown way out of proportion.

But Ben here seems to be a massive dubas fan so I'm not suprised he think this. Somehow there's always something or someone to blame. Never Kyle.
I don't think Dubas is the next coming of Satan, I'll give you that
I wouldn't say massive Dubas fan either though. There's a number of things I would have not done myself, but I respect his job and I respect that any GM that comes through here will have things I agree and disagree with, and overall I respect Dubas for trying to do something a little different in a sport and league that is very much a culture club

I just don't think it's worth stressing and ruining my life thinking about though :laugh: the negative hot takes just seem exhausting to me. I very much try to live a positive life in every facet of my life - sometimes that includes saying, "man, unfortunate that that didn't work, oh well" instead of "f*** dubass!! he needs to be fired and his life ruined, him and his dumb fake glasses :madfire::madfire: ", and then coming on here and being told I don't hate Dubas enough :laugh:
 
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With puck drop nearing I'm hopping back on the Magic Mitch train. It will be smooth sailing until April at least. Then game 1 reveals if Marner checking out again lol

I realized if I follow the "cool" crowd right now where the cool thing here is to rip on marner everyday, the equivalent would be chasing Kuznetsov out of town before he turns 26 (19 points in first 39 playoff games, 9 in first 26, Caps under achieving/ choking) which means Caps don't win the cup in 2018.

With the anger gone from the 3-1 collapse, it's easy to see how foolish giving up on a 24 year old superstar is, so my Marner insults end today.

I'm sure the majority in this thread will feel the same way soon until it's just the usual board grumps left.
 
With puck drop nearing I'm hopping back on the Magic Mitch train. It will be smooth sailing until April at least. Then game 1 reveals if Marner checking out again lol

I realized if I follow the "cool" crowd right now where the cool thing here is to rip on marner everyday, the equivalent would be chasing Kuznetsov out of town before he turns 26 (19 points in first 39 playoff games, 9 in first 26, Caps under achieving/ choking) which means Caps don't win the cup in 2018.

With the anger gone from the 3-1 collapse, it's easy to see how foolish giving up on a 24 year old superstar is, so my Marner insults end today.

I'm sure the majority in this thread will feel the same way soon until it's just the usual board grumps left.
They aren’t the ‘cool crowd’. :laugh:
 
With puck drop nearing I'm hopping back on the Magic Mitch train. It will be smooth sailing until April at least. Then game 1 reveals if Marner checking out again lol

I realized if I follow the "cool" crowd right now where the cool thing here is to rip on marner everyday, the equivalent would be chasing Kuznetsov out of town before he turns 26 (19 points in first 39 playoff games, 9 in first 26, Caps under achieving/ choking) which means Caps don't win the cup in 2018.

With the anger gone from the 3-1 collapse, it's easy to see how foolish giving up on a 24 year old superstar is, so my Marner insults end today.

I'm sure the majority in this thread will feel the same way soon until it's just the usual board grumps left.
More like the ‘in’ crowd,
 
I don't think Dubas is the next coming of Satan, I'll give you that
I wouldn't say massive Dubas fan either though. There's a number of things I would have not done myself, but I respect his job and I respect that any GM that comes through here will have things I agree and disagree with, and overall I respect Dubas for trying to do something a little different in a sport and league that is very much a culture club

I just don't think it's worth stressing and ruining my life thinking about though :laugh: the negative hot takes just seem exhausting to me. I very much try to live a positive life in every facet of my life - sometimes that includes saying, "man, unfortunate that that didn't work, oh well" instead of "f*** dubass!! he needs to be fired and his life ruined, him and his dumb fake glasses :madfire::madfire: ", and then coming on here and being told I don't hate Dubas enough :laugh:

Anyone that delets a message, multiple times, for mentioning that dubas wears fake glasses is a massive dubas fan boy.

How long will this post last?

You were wrong about the tax advantage in Tampa, just like the rest of the dubas fan club has been over the last 3 years. Its sad really. There's always someone or something else to blame, never Kyle.

Point signs a way better contract than marner? "Don't blame Kyle, its the unfair tax". Yeah thats false.

We lose for the 3rd year in a row under kyle? "Its not his fault, his players failed". The gm is in charge of the team. Therefore he is responsible.

Traded kadri for kerfoot and barrie? "Wow dubas just robbed the aves!" Yeah that turned out quite the opposite.

I could go on but I'm sure you get the idea.
 
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Anyone that delets a message, multiple times, for mentioning that dubas wears fake glasses is a massive dubas fan boy.

How long will this post last?

You were wrong about the tax advantage in Tampa, just like the rest of the dubas fan club has been over the last 3 years. Its sad really.
I delete posts when they deliberately derail a conversation and stray off topic, as this conversation is getting close to, and as is asked of my role on the site. I don't care if you try and critique my modding; I know what I signed up for, and you're not the first and won't be the last.

Let's bring the conversation back to Marner, don't antagonize, and no posts will have to be deleted
Pretty simple formula to move forward, really
 
With puck drop nearing I'm hopping back on the Magic Mitch train. It will be smooth sailing until April at least. Then game 1 reveals if Marner checking out again lol

I realized if I follow the "cool" crowd right now where the cool thing here is to rip on marner everyday, the equivalent would be chasing Kuznetsov out of town before he turns 26 (19 points in first 39 playoff games, 9 in first 26, Caps under achieving/ choking) which means Caps don't win the cup in 2018.

With the anger gone from the 3-1 collapse, it's easy to see how foolish giving up on a 24 year old superstar is, so my Marner insults end today.

I'm sure the majority in this thread will feel the same way soon until it's just the usual board grumps left.
See you next spring
 
Eh. Yzerman played through a change in era. He was still an elite scorer even in the cup winning dead puck era.

But even if this clichéd story is true - doesn't that just prove that giving up on super elite talent is a bad idea?

And those sens made it to the cup finals even AFTER letting Chara go in one of the worst decisions ever. They keep him they likely win that cup and maybe more.
This is just a google search with keywords “Bowman Yzerman Change”

bowman yzerman change - Google Search

Ignore the first query as it’s Simmons related, but just the next two that I briefly scanned through have quotes from both parties talking about the sacrifices of personal accomplishment for team accomplishment. Yzerman bought on, wings went from jokers to winners.

You may want to call bull on the famous Gretzky story I mention as well, but I read it in his very first autobiography long ago, and I’m sure it wouldn’t hard to find a source. If you don’t know it, look into it.

It’s not necessarily suggesting that trading star talent is the solution, but the history of the league is littered with ties of star talent either understanding or not, that to win in the playoffs, it takes more than just talent. If you’re not going to self sacrifice as often as your opponent, it’s tough getting the better of them over 7 games. So the question remains, to someone who values winning in the playoffs. Four-five years from now, do Rockets, maybe 1st team all stars, possibly Harts etc...does that still make you happy should the playoff record be the same. The question would come from the perspective of someone who values winning. You’ve made it clear you don’t. I think it’s the whole point of the sport.

Fans across the league should be more envious of Edmonton than teams that have won, because Edmonton has McDavid?

If hockey was a sport where judges awarded wins based on style, technique and talent, like figure skating or gymnastics, whole different story. But this is a results based sport, made clear in the playoffs by beating your opponent 4 times before they get the 4 wins.
 
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This is just a google search with keywords “Bowman Yzerman Change”

bowman yzerman change - Google Search

Ignore the first query as it’s Simmons related, but just the next two that I briefly scanned through have quotes from both parties talking about the sacrifices of personal accomplishment for team accomplishment. Yzerman bought on, wings went from jokers to winners.

You may want to call bull on the famous Gretzky story I mention as well, but I read it in his very first autobiography long ago, and I’m sure it wouldn’t hard to find a source. If you don’t know it, look into it.

It’s not necessarily suggesting that trading star talent is the solution, but the history of the league is littered with ties of star talent either understanding or not, that to win in the playoffs, it takes more than just talent. If you’re not going to self sacrifice as often as your opponent, it’s tough getting the better of them over 7 games. So the question remains, to someone who values winning in the playoffs. Four-five years from now, do Rockets, maybe 1st team all stars, possibly Harts etc...does that still make you happy should the playoff record be the same. The question would come from the perspective of someone who values winning. You’ve made it clear you don’t. I think it’s the whole point of the sport.

Fans across the league should be more envious of Edmonton than teams that have won, because Edmonton has McDavid?

If hockey was a sport where judges awarded wins based on style, technique and talent, like figure skating or gymnastics, whole different story. But this is a results based sport, made clear in the playoffs by beating your opponent 4 times before they get the 4 wins.

Oh believe me I know the legend of Bowman and Yzerman.

But Yzerman never stopped being an elite #1 C.

And if he did make a dramatic mid career change from soft choker to gritty playoffs legend then that only shows us that we shouldn't ditch our super elite talent for some early playoffs failures.
 
Yes I would rather have been the Sens, because they actually had the talent to win, and if they hadn't made a disastrous decision to sign redden instead of chars they probably would have. Though we're in an even better position than them because they never had a Matthews, let alone a matthews-tavares tandem.

Just like back in the dougie days I would have rather been the young choking red wings than our gritty veteran underdog team.

And of course you wouldn't have wanted to be the even less talented underdog MTL team who won the cup in those "Dougie days", they had so little talent that there's a huge asterix next to that cup right?

You must be the only person here who thinks having the talent to win is more important then actually winning. Nothing wrong with that, we're all entitled to our opinions and watching you stubbornly espousing this bizarre POV is certainly entertaining. :)
 
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And of course you wouldn't have wanted to be the even less talented underdog MTL team who won the cup in those "Dougie days", they had so little talent that there's a huge asterix next to that cup right?

You must be the only person here who thinks having the talent to win is more important then actually winning. Nothing wrong with that, we're all entitled to our opinions and watching you stubbornly espousing this bizarre POV is certainly entertaining. :)

I'm gonna go ahead and guess Zeke thinks having more talent makes you more likely to win.

Who are you trying to fool with this, honestly?

"LOL you don't want to win". Yeah, good one there. You really nailed him.
 
I'm gonna go ahead and guess Zeke thinks having more talent makes you more likely to win.

Who are you trying to fool with this, honestly?

"LOL you don't want to win". Yeah, good one there. You really nailed him.
I do agree with Zeke that you can never have to much talent however with that talent it must be balance with a will to win, a will to do what ever it takes to win and this must be in the talented player not hust the complimentary players.
Gallagher on the Habs embodies that will to win and the will to suffer if need be.
We have none of that in our core players…….zero…….nada
 
Eh. Yzerman played through a change in era. He was still an elite scorer even in the cup winning dead puck era.

He was an elite scorer until Bowman forced him to play a more well-rounded game. He was a decent scorer after that, but not elite. In the 5 years before Bowman took over, Yzerman finished 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, and 7th in league scoring. Under Bowman, he finished 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th, and lower.

But even if this clichéd story is true - doesn't that just prove that giving up on super elite talent is a bad idea?

If they're willing to change and adapt, they're worth keeping. If not, get rid of them before everyone else sees it too.

Under Babcock they were unwilling to adapt. Under Keefe, they aren't even being asked.
 
I do agree with Zeke that you can never have to much talent however with that talent it must be balance with a will to win, a will to do what ever it takes to win and this must be in the talented player not hust the complimentary players.
Gallagher on the Habs embodies that will to win and the will to suffer if need be.
We have none of that in our core players…….zero…….nada

You can have too much talent when it starts taking away too much from other areas. With a salary cap and the law of diminishing returns, you have to start chopping talent when other areas would bring more return for the same cap hit.
 
Didn’t Wings drafted a few Russians and a Swede, made many trades before becoming a Dynasty, it wasn’t just Yzerman buying in.
Sakic and the Nords/Avs traded away three No.1 overall picks-Nolan, Sundin and Lindros(had to) and laid the foundations for their Dynasty.
Point I am trying to make is that if there is a good trade that will help the team win the Cup, you make that trade.

Exactly!

I'm gonna go ahead and guess Zeke thinks having more talent makes you more likely to win.

Who are you trying to fool with this, honestly?

"LOL you don't want to win". Yeah, good one there. You really nailed him.

Nobody's saying our goal should be to have less talent. But to say you should never trade talented players is too dogmatic and not a good policy.

Did you see the post above that gave the example of the talent that was traded away before it resulted in a cup for Colorado?

Boston traded away Thornton, dumb move because they "lost" that trade right? After all, Thornton went on to win the Art Ross, the Hart and is a lock for the HOF and the pieces Boston got back never amounted to much. But wait, without the cap space they gained from that trade they wouldn't have been able to sign Chara. Maybe they lost the trade but in the end they were better team and they won the cup that SJ and Thornton are both still dreaming about.

If we traded Marner, got a bunch of lesser pieces back, used the cap space wisely and won the cup, I'd be happy even if some people complained that we have less "talent". What about you?
 
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You can have too much talent when it starts taking away too much from other areas. With a salary cap and the law of diminishing returns, you have to start chopping talent when other areas would bring more return for the same cap hit.

The idea that trading Marner means we'd have less talent is BS anyway. We'd have one less player with "elite" talent but still several elite players, less minimum wage plugs, more middle tier players, a more balanced lineup and the overall talent level would be about the same.
 
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