The Curious Case of Mitch Marner discussion thread.

[Trapper]

We can't afford Colton and his whopping 700k?

You’re missing the point.
Killorn at 4 million had as many goals in the playoffs as Stamkos.
It was depth that scored the Cup winning goal, not the stars.
In game 7 against the Isles, again it wasn’t Point or Kucherov scoring the winner, it was Gourde.
Palat came up big for the team as a mid salary skill guy.

Tampa has been able to keep that tier of player, trade for that tier of player and stay strong.

We bleed out depth, and look for 900K Simmonds to bring grit and everything lacking. Never going to win like that.

You need the mid tier guys.

 

[lovemyleafs]

Tarasenko trade request?

Marner + Rielly for Tarasenko + Parayko

Who says no?

 

[Eb]

Tarasenko trade request?

Marner + Rielly for Tarasenko + Parayko

Who says no?

The Toronto Maple Leafs.

 

[lovemyleafs]

The Toronto Maple Leafs.

How much would the Blues need to add?

 

[Arzak]

You are aware that Mitch has the best playoff offensive stats of all the Leafs for the last 5 years. I think it was hard for Mitch to be more productive when all I saw from Matthews was him smiling and doing his rag doll impression and his numerous periphery shots meanwhile Hy was essentially missing in action until the last game.

Mitch's killer instincts are best realized when paired with killers, he enables others but it's impossible to enable the unwilling(Matthews) or the unable(Hy returning from injury).

You might supply the stats you won't even specify here, probably not looking for goal scorers in your sheet.



Come on here, the only players with killer instinct need another killer to even start the game on time ? Did I miss the playoff series where Mitch killed anything but Leafs in elimination games?

It's been years since we saw him score, he must be a silent killer, all the victims still missing hence not on his scoresheet.


Only here can a player look scared on ice, cry in a box, not score and still be a killer. Mitch the b(east)!

 

[Nylander88]

Tarasenko trade request?

Marner + Rielly for Tarasenko + Parayko

Who says no?

We do

 

[Racer88]

You are aware that Mitch has the best playoff offensive stats of all the Leafs for the last 5 years. I think it was hard for Mitch to be more productive when all I saw from Matthews was him smiling and doing his rag doll impression and his numerous periphery shots meanwhile Hy was essentially missing in action until the last game.

Mitch's killer instincts are best realized when paired with killers, he enables others but it's impossible to enable the unwilling(Matthews) or the unable(Hy returning from injury).

While I agree that this years playoffs Matthews was as much at fault as Marner for his poor production.
I’m not much of a stats guy but I’m concerned about the type and timing of Marners points.
How many were of real consequences. How many game winning goals, how many game tying goals, how many goals in the last 3 years. How is his production in elimination games when all the pressure is on.
He hasn’t even scored a single PP goal in over a year.
I get it that he is a set up guy and so rely’s on other people to finish his points. This type of player is needed on every team but when that’s all he brings he is certainly not worth 11 million dollars
You simply cannot pat that type of player that much money and still build a proper team around him

 

[egd27]

Matthews is the only leaf ever to win a Calder. Also the only leaf to win a Richard. He’s only 24. He was also decent last year in the playoffs. We’ll give him more a pass for one bad playoffs (but he’s clearly has NOT been given a “free” pass on these boards… by any means).

Marner doesn’t have those accomplishments and has been awful 3 playoffs in a row.

Without excusing Marner's playoff performance(s), I just happened across a youtube video of all of Matthews' goals for the season. I think it's reasonable to say he doesn't win the Rocket without Marner on his wing.



I believe Matthews has much more to give but gets frustrated too easily and let's up.

 

[hobarth]

I believe Matthews can score 40 plus goals a year with or without Marner, unfortunately he can and does score the majority from the periphery and basically never needs to get down and dirty to score. This is fine during the regular season but more is needed in the playoffs which we can see he isn't willing to do. We need him going to the net instead of waiting on the sidelines to take his wrist shot. This is Ovie all over again but Ovie does score in more varied ways now, he learned and so will Matthews.

Marner made JT into a 47 goal scorer last year and we could've used that JT this year, Matthews had a great year but JT didn't, we need both firing on all cylinders to make up for TO's lack of depth.

 

[cannucky]

Matthews is the only leaf ever to win a Calder. Also the only leaf to win a Richard. He’s only 24. He was also decent last year in the playoffs. We’ll give him more a pass for one bad playoffs (but he’s clearly has NOT been given a “free” pass on these boards… by any means).

Marner doesn’t have those accomplishments and has been awful 3 playoffs in a row.

Really ? actually Mathews is the 10th Leaf to win the Calder Trophy which was then renamed the Calder Memorial Trpphy after his death but still bore his name starting in the 36/37 season in fact the winner the first year was a Leaf named Syl Apps , you may have heard of him ? The Rocket Richard Trophy didn't even exist before the 98/99 season so yes Mathews is the first Leaf to win a 23 year old trophy in a 31 team league . Not quite what you have insinuated in your post .

 

[stickty111]

If you trade Marner for some nice package with some futures included, you can go after Hall and have money to rework the bottom 6.

 

[stickty111]

I just realized Mitch played in the playoffs like the soccer player are in the Euro 2020. Someone laid a hand on him he'd throw his arms up in the air looking for a call. Wrong sport son.

Can't blame that soccer player. That player probably is the greatest passer ever and better then the best player in the game. Thats how Marner is talked about by his fans. Now whats the puck over glass equalivant to soccer? Purpose handball in the box?

 

[Stephen]

You’re missing the point.
Killorn at 4 million had as many goals in the playoffs as Stamkos.
It was depth that scored the Cup winning goal, not the stars.
In game 7 against the Isles, again it wasn’t Point or Kucherov scoring the winner, it was Gourde.
Palat came up big for the team as a mid salary skill guy.

Tampa has been able to keep that tier of player, trade for that tier of player and stay strong.

We bleed out depth, and look for 900K Simmonds to bring grit and everything lacking. Never going to win like that.

You need the mid tier guys.

Every deep run in the playoffs shares this in common. Star players buy in to a team concept and take on a lot of role players responsibilities, and the role players step up and provide an offensive lift for star players. At some point it doesn’t matter if Auston Matthews blocks the shot and Adam Brooks is the OT hero. Everybody looks the same and plays the same game. It’s ugly. But it’s beautiful.

 

[TMLAM34]

Every deep run in the playoffs shares this in common. Star players buy in to a team concept and take on a lot of role players responsibilities, and the role players step up and provide an offensive lift for star players. At some point it doesn’t matter if Auston Matthews blocks the shot and Adam Brooks is the OT hero. Everybody looks the same and plays the same game. It’s ugly. But it’s beautiful.

We started to see this a little with Matthews. Even though he wasn’t scoring, he was throwing his body a lot more and going into dirty areas. He was engaged into battles even post whistle. That’s why I’m not as hard on Matthews regarding his playoff performance unlike Marner.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Matthews is the only leaf ever to win a Calder. Also the only leaf to win a Richard. He’s only 24. He was also decent last year in the playoffs. We’ll give him more a pass for one bad playoffs (but he’s clearly has NOT been given a “free” pass on these boards… by any means).

Marner doesn’t have those accomplishments and has been awful 3 playoffs in a row.

who cares?
i'd rather Matthews have 0 calders, 0 richards, and more deep playoff runs and a cup.

 

[Martin Skoula]

You’re missing the point.
Killorn at 4 million had as many goals in the playoffs as Stamkos.
It was depth that scored the Cup winning goal, not the stars.
In game 7 against the Isles, again it wasn’t Point or Kucherov scoring the winner, it was Gourde.
Palat came up big for the team as a mid salary skill guy.

Tampa has been able to keep that tier of player, trade for that tier of player and stay strong.

We bleed out depth, and look for 900K Simmonds to bring grit and everything lacking. Never going to win like that.

You need the mid tier guys.

I just don't buy that you specifically need to have a Killorn on a 7x4.5 deal or you can't compete. Depth is important, that depth does not necessarily have to be expensive if you can draft and develop it consistently. It's also disingenuous to say that Tampa's outsmarting everyone else on depth when they're 17 mil over the cap. If Kucherov didn't have a miraculously timed surgery they would have had to get rid of Killorn + one of Palat/Gourde/Johnson at the very least. If Tavares took that knee to the head a week before the deadline instead of game 1, we would have been able to get 3 or 4 mid salary depth pieces. Outside of Coleman and Goodrow, all those guys are home grown pieces, not vets acquired at UFA prices. We're just now starting to get the next wave of viable ELC players after Hunter produced next to nothing outside of easy lottery picks. We should have had a wave of Connor Brown level prospects graduating the Marlies right now, instead we just have Brooks.

Simmonds isn't the answer but that's because he's washed up not because he's cheap. I'd take a bottom-6 of Spezzas any day.

 

[Arzak]

If you trade Marner for some nice package with some futures included, you can go after Hall and have money to rework the bottom 6.

I'm afraid we'll see Hall in Bruins jersey for reasonable AAV but I would love Hall here, he looked good after getting out of Buffalo.

 

[Arzak]

I just don't buy that you specifically need to have a Killorn on a 7x4.5 deal or you can't compete. Depth is important, that depth does not necessarily have to be expensive if you can draft and develop it consistently. It's also disingenuous to say that Tampa's outsmarting everyone else on depth when they're 17 mil over the cap. If Kucherov didn't have a miraculously timed surgery they would have had to get rid of Killorn + one of Palat/Gourde/Johnson at the very least. If Tavares took that knee to the head a week before the deadline instead of game 1, we would have been able to get 3 or 4 mid salary depth pieces. Outside of Coleman and Goodrow, all those guys are home grown pieces, not vets acquired at UFA prices. We're just now starting to get the next wave of viable ELC players after Hunter produced next to nothing outside of easy lottery picks. We should have had a wave of Connor Brown level prospects graduating the Marlies right now, instead we just have Brooks.

Simmonds isn't the answer but that's because he's washed up not because he's cheap. I'd take a bottom-6 of Spezzas any day.

When you're paid 11M$ you took home town discount , if you making over 2M$, we gonna call you mid salary guy here buddy .

 

[Captain Crunch]

You are aware that Mitch has the best playoff offensive stats of all the Leafs for the last 5 years. I think it was hard for Mitch to be more productive when all I saw from Matthews was him smiling and doing his rag doll impression and his numerous periphery shots meanwhile Hy was essentially missing in action until the last game.

Mitch's killer instincts are best realized when paired with killers, he enables others but it's impossible to enable the unwilling(Matthews) or the unable(Hy returning from injury).

I was also not impressed when Matthews just smiled while doing his rag doll impression. However, he certainly wasn’t afraid to go in the corners and take a hit, unlike Marner, and Nylander for that matter, who consistently shy away from a hit instead of taking it in order to make a play.

 

[Antropovsky]

Without excusing Marner's playoff performance(s), I just happened across a youtube video of all of Matthews' goals for the season. I think it's reasonable to say he doesn't win the Rocket without Marner on his wing.



I believe Matthews has much more to give but gets frustrated too easily and let's up.

Can you point out all the goals matthews scores that are a result of Marner. Then also point out which ones a different player probably wouldn't be able to make?

I watched the first 21 goals (and have watched all the goals in the past a couple times)..the only easy goals Matthews got from a Marner play were cross crease passes on the PP and the 2man...even then his great one timer also caused the goal....meaning they werent just tap it's. Could Nylander make the same pass if he were on that pp where Marner? Certainly. Otherwise the extend of the marner play was drop passes. Watching these goals and I would say Marner isn't at a point per game without Matthews as his center....not Matthews not winning the Rocket without Marner. Although who knows maybe Marner would be a better player without Matthews.

Who else made great passes to Matthews in the first 21 goals? rielly, holl, Joe Thornton and Tavares. Seems like Matthews scores with whomever is on the ice.

Here are three passes 1 million dollar galchenyuk made (two being in the playoffs)





[MEDIA=youtube]KqYTEnXM4WE[/MEDIA]

 

[egd27]

Here are three passes 1 million dollar galchenyuk made (two being in the playoffs)

yea we should dump Marner and let Galch ride shotgun with Matthews on route to his 2nd straight rocket.

Great plan.

 

[Antropovsky]

yea we should dump Marner and let Galch ride shotgun with Matthews on route to his 2nd straight rocket.

Great plan.

Who said anything about replacing Marner with Galchenyuk?

This is for you:

strawman arguments are relatively simple to recognize in discourse. Essentially, when you realize that there is a mismatch between someone's stance and the stance that their opponent is attacking, it's a clear sign that a strawman is being used.

 

[egd27]

Then also point out which ones a different player probably wouldn't be able to make?........
Here are three passes 1 million dollar galchenyuk made (two being in the playoffs)

Who said anything about replacing Marner with Galchenyuk?

Seemed like that you were implying many players could make the passes Marner does.....and using Galch as an example.

I just took it to the extreme......good to see you don't actually believe that either.

 

[Antropovsky]

Seemed like that you were implying many players could make the passes Marner does.....and using Galch as an example.

I just took it to the extreme......good to see you don't actually believe that either.

I watched all of Tavares goals from his first season with Toronto and I think Marner looks much more dangerous in these and creates at least 20 of Tavares goals. The team in general looks more dangerous in these replays, especially Marner. Is this a result of Babs being a better coach? Tavares being a better fit with Marner? Marner taking the foot of the pedal after his contract or teams figuring Marner out? Or me watching at 1.5 speed? Not sure.

But I think one thing is for certain by these two videos Tavares seemed to need Marner in 2019 much more than Matthews in 2021.

 

[egd27]

But I think one thing is for certain by these two videos Tavares seemed to need Marner in 2019 much more than Matthews in 2021.

You're entitled to that opinion, and you may be right, however it is my opinion that Matthews does not win the Rocket with a Leaf RW other than Marner.