The Curious Case of Mitch Marner discussion thread.

[Havoc]

I don't get this Marner hate, he's a great player and has played insanely well during the regular season and is TO's top scoring playoff scorer since he's become a Leaf, yes TO gets more offense from Marner than Matthews during the last 5 playoffs/qualifiers.

There are many essential players like Marner on Cup winning teams and when conditions/chemistry is right TO will need him to win the Cup.

TO lost to Mtl after having them down 3 to 1 then it was like Mtl woke up, chemistry kicked in, and it was a different story, Price was Price and the rest of their team thrived on his leadership skill. It seems that TO didn't have enough talent or whatever to win but 2 of those final 3 losses were in overtime and except for Drouin Mtl was healthy. Let's not forget TO had no JT, no Muzzin, Simmonds played with a broken thumb, Foligno constantly hurting, Nash nowhere near the Nash we saw in the qualifier last year and Hy, who returned from injury for the playoffs, wasn't Hy until the final game. We are also forgetting that Mtl went on to play in the finals which is/should be an indication of the quality of their team during these playoffs.

There are other teams like Colorado which struggles in the playoffs, they might win a round here and there but the quality of their talent equals TO's. They don't have Boston, Wash. and TB to go thru to advance in the playoffs. Those 3 teams are talented and much older and experienced than TO and like TO they had growing pains when their stars were younger. TO's time will come, that TO isn't succeeding in the playoffs is probably mostly a problem that time and experience will remedy.

I think we've seen a lot of progress from TO this year, they looked like a team that was worthy of a playoff run, no long inexplicable losing streaks like in the past which can probably be attributed to the many vets TO had in the lineup. TO looked like it should've won most nights instead of being outplayed more frequently than not.

This was a very good and consistent team that simply needs time to grow into it's potential.

Back to Marner, the one player that I would say is similar to him is Backstrom from Wash., an overall great player that isn't physical but needed time to figure out how to be productive in the playoffs, it took him and Ovie to be in their 30's before they won the Cup and if you removed either from their team I doubt Wash. would've won. Marner and Backstrom might not appear to be the right types of players to be essential to Cup winners but they are, so I'm just hoping it won't take Marner and Matthews 6/7 more years before TO wins the Cup.

What's so hard to understand?

He choked two playoffs in a row. He doesn't deserve criticism? Up to him to reflect on his lack of killer instinct and do something about it. The rest is all noise. Everything else he did or will do doesn't change the fact he deserves harsh criticism at this specific moment.

 

[ACC1224]

One could argue that those over the glass penalties were as stupid as Kadri's suspensions. Chicken sh1t $11m player avoiding contact. At least Kadri, a player who lives on the edge, showed some heart and backbone.

Wasn’t it just one penalty with no one around him? Think you’re confusing it with Nylanders, many have done the same.

 

[ToneDog]

Wasn’t it just one penalty with no one around him? Think you’re confusing it with Nylanders, many have done the same.

He flipped one over the glass the same home game Willie did. To do it a second time, down 1-0 and on the PK after the dumb coaches challenge is inexcusable. I believe Marner has taken 5 or 6 of these penalties in the playoffs.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

You could use this picture as the relationship between the Leafs (Lucy) and this fanbase (Chuck) for the past 50 years.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

we're broke as a joke and can't fill 95% of a roster with 50% of our available cash.

Pretty Much

The issue is making a playoff roster with just 50% of the cap. As the other 50% consistently no shows.

Fans always think its about winning cups. It really isnt. And no team exemplifies this better than the Leafs.

Kyle Dubas giving his Marlies buddy 10.8 AAV. 100% comedy.

No show Mitch comes to me with that and I laugh. I make sure he knows he has 3 options;

Hi Mitch - please remember I'm the GM and I have to advocate for the whole team. I'm helping make a team that YOU can be a part of. You, and your contract, must fit into the team I am making.

The options:

(1) You have to be real about an offer, and the earlier the deal, the better the deal is for you. I'm in a hurry and if you slow play me that makes my job harder. [Dubas quotes it is a good idea to take your time with deals - pure newbie move].

(2) If you miss one game, I only offer a bridge. Ever. I dont care if you are McDavid. And Mitch, you aren't McDavid.

(3) If you miss 2 weeks, I am 95% trading you, if you miss a month, I am 100% trading you, and i'll wait til the return suits me, not you. If I dont get good offers, I'll be forced to have you sit.

 

[Kazparov]

I just realized Mitch played in the playoffs like the soccer player are in the Euro 2020. Someone laid a hand on him he'd throw his arms up in the air looking for a call. Wrong sport son.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Someone laid a hand on him he'd throw his arms up in the air looking for a call.

I've reffed before and I'll tell you, its hard to give a break to players telling me how to call the game.

Human nature.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Pretty Much

The issue is making a playoff roster with just 50% of the cap. As the other 50% consistently no shows.

Fans always think its about winning cups. It really isnt. And no team exemplifies this better than the Leafs.

Kyle Dubas giving his Marlies buddy 10.8 AAV. 100% comedy.

No show Mitch comes to me with that and I laugh. I make sure he knows he has 3 options;

Hi Mitch - please remember I'm the GM and I have to advocate for the whole team. I'm helping make a team that YOU can be a part of. You, and your contract, must fit into the team I am making.

The options:

(1) You have to be real about an offer, and the earlier the deal, the better the deal is for you. I'm in a hurry and if you slow play me that makes my job harder. [Dubas quotes it is a good idea to take your time with deals - pure newbie move].

(2) If you miss one game, I only offer a bridge. Ever. I dont care if you are McDavid. And Mitch, you aren't McDavid.

(3) If you miss 2 weeks, I am 95% trading you, if you miss a month, I am 100% trading you, and i'll wait til the return suits me, not you. If I dont get good offers, I'll be forced to have you sit.

The problem was 2-fold IMO. One...Dubas was new at the whole "get a good contract done" side of being a GM. Number 2...he thought we were really close to being a contender and didn't want to "waste" any years by dealing with hold outs and possibly not icing a full team of superstars.

In hindsight this all happened because he let Willy sit to start the season without any penalty. I do now in retrospect kind of agree with Willy's stance because in the end...nobody gave any kind of deal to the team. He would have been a sucker to do so. Doesn't matter though...as GM I make him pay for starting the whole "grab as much as you can" frenzy that happened. I trade him or make him lose a year sitting at home (he was utterly useless that season anyway) as a warning to everyone else.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

As it was unfolding that Nylander wasnt going to take a team friendly deal, I would sadly have had to sit him for the year.

Nylander probably got a bit lucky this post season. I suspect he'll regress to the mean as time goes on. But one thing I did learn this year is that having a shot that finishes is worth paying for.

In the post season when the ice gets tight, you need shooters. Power plays that work over time have elite shooters.

I probably got lots of return for trading Nylander. So I'm not worried that I failed to sign him. I still dont like his overly soft play. He did forecheck fairly well this year. I hope his stamina improves. He short shifts alot like my son.

Dubas thought we were really close to being a contender and didn't want to "waste" any years by dealing with hold outs and possibly not icing a full team of superstars.

Another reason he should go.

 

[hobarth]

What's so hard to understand?

He choked two playoffs in a row. He doesn't deserve criticism? Up to him to reflect on his lack of killer instinct and do something about it. The rest is all noise. Everything else he did or will do doesn't change the fact he deserves harsh criticism at this specific moment.

You are aware that Mitch has the best playoff offensive stats of all the Leafs for the last 5 years. I think it was hard for Mitch to be more productive when all I saw from Matthews was him smiling and doing his rag doll impression and his numerous periphery shots meanwhile Hy was essentially missing in action until the last game.

Mitch's killer instincts are best realized when paired with killers, he enables others but it's impossible to enable the unwilling(Matthews) or the unable(Hy returning from injury).

 

[Gary Nylund]

You are aware that Mitch has the best playoff offensive stats of all the Leafs for the last 5 years. I think it was hard for Mitch to be more productive when all I saw from Matthews was him smiling and doing his rag doll impression and his numerous periphery shots meanwhile Hy was essentially missing in action until the last game.

Mitch's killer instincts are best realized when paired with killers, he enables others but it's impossible to enable the unwilling(Matthews) or the unable(Hy returning from injury).

Him and Matthews both have 24 points. I give the edge to Matthews based on his 13 goals compared to Marner's 4. What makes you say Marner's offensive stats are better, some sort of "advanced" considerations?

 

[Gabriel426]

Him and Matthews both have 24 points. I give the edge to Matthews based on his 13 goals compared to Marner's 4. What makes you say Marner's offensive stats are better, some sort of "advanced" considerations?

But Marner killed penalty. lol.

Marner hadn’t been performing since the first two playoffs. People need to stop using stats from a few years ago to justify his play now.
It is the same as saying Jumbo got the most Playoff points on the team, that’s why he should play the most.

 

[ER89]

Him and Matthews both have 24 points. I give the edge to Matthews based on his 13 goals compared to Marner's 4. What makes you say Marner's offensive stats are better, some sort of "advanced" considerations?

The voices man the voices

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Pretty Much

The issue is making a playoff roster with just 50% of the cap. As the other 50% consistently no shows.

Fans always think its about winning cups. It really isnt. And no team exemplifies this better than the Leafs.

Kyle Dubas giving his Marlies buddy 10.8 AAV. 100% comedy.

No show Mitch comes to me with that and I laugh. I make sure he knows he has 3 options;

Hi Mitch - please remember I'm the GM and I have to advocate for the whole team. I'm helping make a team that YOU can be a part of. You, and your contract, must fit into the team I am making.

The options:

(1) You have to be real about an offer, and the earlier the deal, the better the deal is for you. I'm in a hurry and if you slow play me that makes my job harder. [Dubas quotes it is a good idea to take your time with deals - pure newbie move].

(2) If you miss one game, I only offer a bridge. Ever. I dont care if you are McDavid. And Mitch, you aren't McDavid.

(3) If you miss 2 weeks, I am 95% trading you, if you miss a month, I am 100% trading you, and i'll wait til the return suits me, not you. If I dont get good offers, I'll be forced to have you sit.

Dubas should have taken the approach the Canes did with Aho.

Lowball Marner and tell him to play the offer sheet game if he so chooses. The 1st round pick cost will lower his value significantly, and I really doubt any team would offer more than the 2 first round picks aav. Which is significantly lower than his current contract. Aho’s elc stats were almost as good as Marner, and no team would go past the ONE first round pick aav of 8.5. They wouldn’t go past ONE first round pick for an almost comparable player. To think anyone would go FOUR first round pick it’s, AND offer more than 11x6? No way in HELL.

 

[hobarth]

Him and Matthews both have 24 points. I give the edge to Matthews based on his 13 goals compared to Marner's 4. What makes you say Marner's offensive stats are better, some sort of "advanced" considerations?

I count 25 points for MM and 24 for AM?

Auston Matthews Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com
Mitch Marner Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

I noticed Mitch not being successful, Matthews was basically invisible during these playoffs.

I don't understand how a player who was actually trying is condemned while another of equal or more talent is a no show and is basically not mentioned on forums.

 

[ACC1224]

He flipped one over the glass the same home game Willie did. To do it a second time, down 1-0 and on the PK after the dumb coaches challenge is inexcusable. I believe Marner has taken 5 or 6 of these penalties in the playoffs.

Yep it was a pretty brain dead play.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I count 25 points for MM and 24 for AM?

Auston Matthews Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com
Mitch Marner Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

I noticed Mitch not being successful, Matthews was basically invisible during these playoffs.

I don't understand how a player who was actually trying is condemned while another of equal or more talent is a no show and is basically not mentioned on forums.

I consider this site to be the most reliable and it shows Marner at 24:
Mitch Marner Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

One point either way doesn't really change much and I don't think Marner has equal talent to Matthews myself. Matthews has taken a lot of criticism well, Marner has taken more that's true but there are reasons for that. For one, Matthews has 17 points to Marner's 11 (and 8 goals to 1)over the last 3 playoffs and recent performance always carries more weight than performance from several years ago. He also plays a much tougher position defensively, he hasn't been penalized at a crucial time for brain deadness and then of course there's the contract which makes it almost impossible for Marner to ever be good value for his cap hit. And I think most people consider goals to be more valuable than assists so there's that as well.

 

[egd27]

I noticed Mitch not being successful, Matthews was basically invisible during these playoffs.

I don't understand how a player who was actually trying is condemned while another of equal or more talent is a no show and is basically not mentioned on forums.

So we basically can't decide which of our $11M stars is the worse playoff no show. Not a very good position for a team with supposed Cup aspirations.

 

[cannucky]

Pretty Much

The issue is making a playoff roster with just 50% of the cap. As the other 50% consistently no shows.

Fans always think its about winning cups. It really isnt. And no team exemplifies this better than the Leafs.

Kyle Dubas giving his Marlies buddy 10.8 AAV. 100% comedy.

No show Mitch comes to me with that and I laugh. I make sure he knows he has 3 options;

Hi Mitch - please remember I'm the GM and I have to advocate for the whole team. I'm helping make a team that YOU can be a part of. You, and your contract, must fit into the team I am making.

The options:

(1) You have to be real about an offer, and the earlier the deal, the better the deal is for you. I'm in a hurry and if you slow play me that makes my job harder. [Dubas quotes it is a good idea to take your time with deals - pure newbie move].

(2) If you miss one game, I only offer a bridge. Ever. I dont care if you are McDavid. And Mitch, you aren't McDavid.

(3) If you miss 2 weeks, I am 95% trading you, if you miss a month, I am 100% trading you, and i'll wait til the return suits me, not you. If I dont get good offers, I'll be forced to have you sit.

Who ae you talking about ? You do know Mitch Marner has never been a Marlie don't you ? He was drafted from the London Knights and returned to the Knights for a third year because he was too young for the AHL , he dominated that year and then moved up to the Leafs so I don't know which Marlie Dumbass paid 10.8 to but it wasn't Mitch Marner .

 

[Stephen]

I count 25 points for MM and 24 for AM?

Auston Matthews Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com
Mitch Marner Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

I noticed Mitch not being successful, Matthews was basically invisible during these playoffs.

I don't understand how a player who was actually trying is condemned while another of equal or more talent is a no show and is basically not mentioned on forums.

Auston Matthews had a dominant Game 2 performance when we all thought he had found his Nathan Mackinnon gear, which was a wonderful bounce back after that nightmare Game 1. He didn't really get on the board in Game 3 and 4 on that quick back to back 24 hour set, but was still very involved and physically engaged, before tapering off in Games 5-7 with the overall physicality disappearing and offense slowing to a trickle.

 

[cannucky]

So we basically can't decide which of our $11M stars is the worse playoff no show. Not a very good position for a team with supposed Cup aspirations.

And one of those players is supposed to be the end all be all , second coming , GOAT , while another is the guy everybody loves to hate now , Funny how the guy they love to hate has led this team in points every year since he joined it while making everybody he played with the best they have ever been . Meanwhile the GOAT hasn't done any of that , in fact we hear the same excuses for him and instead blame the players he plays with every year but is it time to trade him noooo lets trade the guy who's been the best every year , Now thats winning logic right there yup .

 

[Gary Nylund]

And one of those players is supposed to be the end all be all , second coming , GOAT , while another is the guy everybody loves to hate now , Funny how the guy they love to hate has led this team in points every year since he joined it while making everybody he played with the best they have ever been . Meanwhile the GOAT hasn't done any of that , in fact we hear the same excuses for him and instead blame the players he plays with every year but is it time to trade him noooo lets trade the guy who's been the best every year , Now thats winning logic right there yup .

If you ignore the playoffs, sure. When a guy compiles points during the regular season but fades away when the playoffs start, the games tighten up and the going gets tough, he's just not that valuable to a team that wants to go deep in the playoffs.

Regular season boy wonder, I gotta call it like it is.

 

[Trapper]

If you ignore the playoffs, sure. When a guy compiles points during the regular season but fades away when the playoffs start, the games tighten up and the going gets tough, he's just not that valuable to a team that wants to go deep in the playoffs.

Regular season boy wonder, I gotta call it like it is.

Two major issues here and it’s not just Marner.
1. I don’t believe this “core 4” is the right sum of the parts to go deep and win it all in the playoffs. Maybe 2 of them with 2 different core player, I’d have to see.

2. This core I don’t believe in is taking up half the cap and it’s killed our depth. Bled it away to the point you don’t win with the depth we provide.
Who scored the Cup winning goal this year? Was it Point or Kucherov? Stars don’t score every game and in 4 rounds you get banged up. Who supports you when you have a bruised rib or broken finger?
Nobody we can afford that’s for sure.

They aren’t just going to get it as is. Not without a core change and serious depth plus an increase of drafted guys like Kadri/Hyman/Brown types in the minors.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I count 25 points for MM and 24 for AM?

Auston Matthews Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com
Mitch Marner Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

I noticed Mitch not being successful, Matthews was basically invisible during these playoffs.

I don't understand how a player who was actually trying is condemned while another of equal or more talent is a no show and is basically not mentioned on forums.

Matthews is the only leaf ever to win a Calder. Also the only leaf to win a Richard. He’s only 24. He was also decent last year in the playoffs. We’ll give him more a pass for one bad playoffs (but he’s clearly has NOT been given a “free” pass on these boards… by any means).

Marner doesn’t have those accomplishments and has been awful 3 playoffs in a row.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Two major issues here and it’s not just Marner.
1. I don’t believe this “core 4” is the right sum of the parts to go deep and win it all in the playoffs. Maybe 2 of them with 2 different core player, I’d have to see.

2. This core I don’t believe in is taking up half the cap and it’s killed our depth. Bled it away to the point you don’t win with the depth we provide.
Who scored the Cup winning goal this year? Was it Point or Kucherov? Stars don’t score every game and in 4 rounds you get banged up. Who supports you when you have a bruised rib or broken finger?
Nobody we can afford that’s for sure.

They aren’t just going to get it as is. Not without a core change and serious depth plus an increase of drafted guys like Kadri/Hyman/Brown types in the minors.

We can't afford Colton and his whopping 700k?