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The Core Has To Go

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Mr Knies Guy said:
Cathal Kelly of G&M has a great article and mentions a point about this team having no rage for losing; whether they win small, big, lose big or small, it’s always the same lifeless apathy they show. They don’t hate to lose, they hate to give everything in them to win
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No sure who that person is but they are bang-on correct and I've been saying it for a few years now. The Leafs get embarrassed in the playoffs and the next time you see Matthews he's partying it up with the Bieber tour like he doesn't have a care in the world. These kids just don't seem to care when they get ousted from the playoffs. Ironically, the one who I believe cares the most is Marner, in a crazy way. Matthews has a big kid mentality -- it just a kids game to him, making big people money.

Call me old school but I want some ignorant, miserable hombres who flip Gatorade tubs, smash stuff, take a bit less money to recruit some thugs, and get in crazy shape to revenge a poor playoffs like they're revenging their brother's death. When the Leafs choked and Matthews was walking around wearing Disney clothes and glowsticks I saw red for a week. This needs to be reined in.
 
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Boxscore said:
No sure who that person is but they are bang-on correct and I've been saying it for a few years now. The Leafs get embarrassed in the playoffs and the next time you see Matthews he's partying it up with the Bieber tour like he doesn't have a care in the world. These kids just don't seem to care when they get ousted from the playoffs. Ironically, the one who I believe cares the most is Marner, in a crazy way. Matthews has a big kid mentality -- it just a kids game to him, making big people money.

Call me old school but I want some ignorant, miserable hombres who flip Gatorade tubs, smash stuff, take a bit less money to recruit some thugs, and get in crazy shape to revenge a poor playoffs like they're revenging their brother's death. When the Leafs choked and Matthews was walking around wearing Disney clothes and glowsticks I saw red for a week. This needs to be reined in.
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Yep, they have no fire to burn bc they really don’t mind losing. Maybe Reilly was being political but even saying it is disappointing ain’t enough. They all need to be mad about losing and piss that they didn’t get results.
 
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Gabriel426 said:
Yep, they have no fire to burn bc they really don’t mind losing. Maybe Reilly was being political but even saying it is disappointing ain’t enough. They all need to be mad about losing and piss that they didn’t get results.
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Look at MacKinnon after he lost to Vegas, the year before he won the Cup. "I haven't won s--t." Talk about seeing red. I wouldn't even stop and ask him for directions looking like that.



And Draisaitl. "We need to get better at everything." Leon looks like he threw himself a birthday party and nobody showed up. Is it too much to ask to have players who get angry with losing?

 
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Boxscore said:
Look at MacKinnon after he lost to Vegas, the year before he won the Cup. "I haven't won s--t." Talk about seeing red. I wouldn't even stop and ask him for directions looking like that.



And Draisaitl. "We need to get better at everything." Leon looks like he threw himself a birthday party and nobody showed up. Is it too much to ask to have players who get angry with losing?

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100% agree completely.

You look at the press conf after Game 3 of the Celtics and Heats game, and all the Celtics players were mad and disappointed at themselves for being in that position and one of them even said it was an embarrassment for the team and fans….
It seems like our guys are okay in losing.
 
ToneDog said:
Matty signed before Mitch. Mitch used Matty as his comparable and Dubas capitulated. Marner could have been had the previous summer for a cap hit in the 8s but Dubas passed. The usual suspects blame that on Lou for teaching him if you have time use it. LOL.
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But Matty signed after JT, and used JT as his comparable, so ultimately Mitch used JT too. Dubas blew all three, but it started with JT.

"If you have time, use it" isn't the same as "wait until it's too late".
 
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Gabriel426 said:
I have been having this type of discussions with a couple of posters here since the Habs series.
One of the things is that we are not in the locker room with these guys, thus I don’t know how they were acting when the going got tough….who stood up and who hid in the shadows waiting for someone to lead.

When some suggest bring them back, it is really bringing back the Big 5 bc ROR made it quite clear he is not coming back and quite frankly, I really don’t think the Leafs can get a more talented team on paper than the one we had since TDL. Kerfoot, Holl and Bunting priced themselves out, Bunting will be miss the most.

To me, beside the obvious Murray, JT is the obvious choice bc he really doesn’t provide a lot of intangibles and the fact that he openly stated he doesn’t mind moving to LW just made his case worst.
TJ is another player whom I think should be move and get someone more physical and take the bumps along the boards.

When it comes AM, MM and Willie. Assuming they all want to be here on reasonable contracts like AM at 12.5mil instead of 14mil. When it comes to trading them, it really depends on who is coming back. Trading AM means a 1C has to be coming back our way. With MM and Willie, there are more flexibility with Centering a Dman coming our way with another forward. In Willie case, it will be harder bc his caphit is at 7mil.

To answer your question, I am against trades for the sake of trades or blow it up bc I don’t think this team is at the blow up stage. Rather the boys need to know that this is it, Cup or Bust. None of them said anything remotely to Cup or Bust and to me, that’s a huge concern. To me, if one or more of the big four are traded, one of the player, if not all players, coming back need to be vocal leaders and HATE losing. I mean, he must be an a****le but he cares about winning and make others follow.
I really think having Marleau around screwed their mindset, and that’s something that even Lou and Babs didn’t expect.
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You think that Willy will get a poorer return because, despite him being roughly as good as Mitch and Matty (and much better than JT), his much lower cap hit is detrimental?

Interesting viewpoint. I can see it if we are talking about two teams at the cap limit trading equivalent talent at equivalent cap. So yes, for Marner you could get a forward and a D at $5.5M each, while for Willy you could get only a forward and a D for $3.5 each. If that's not what you meant, please let me know.

On the other hand, I think the lower cap hit can give you a better return. You can swap for an established $5.5M winger and get a good young prospect making $1.5M, or a couple of high picks. If someone is going to take on an $11M player, they usually have to dump $11M right back at you.

Having said that, I'd rather keep Nylander rather than Marner, for the same reason - much better cap hip for a reasonably comparable player.
 
Jamason said:
You think that Willy will get a poorer return because, despite him being roughly as good as Mitch and Matty (and much better than JT), his much lower cap hit is detrimental?

Interesting viewpoint. I can see it if we are talking about two teams at the cap limit trading equivalent talent at equivalent cap. So yes, for Marner you could get a forward and a D at $5.5M each, while for Willy you could get only a forward and a D for $3.5 each. If that's not what you meant, please let me know.

On the other hand, I think the lower cap hit can give you a better return. You can swap for an established $5.5M winger and get a good young prospect making $1.5M, or a couple of high picks. If someone is going to take on an $11M player, they usually have to dump $11M right back at you.

Having said that, I'd rather keep Nylander rather than Marner, for the same reason - much better cap hip for a reasonably comparable player.
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You misunderstood my point or I should had made it more clear.

When I was referring to Willie at 7mil cap hit, I meant if Willie is traded, it is harder to get two good pieces for 7mil caphit combined. Where as it is easier to get two good pieces when trading a 10mil plus player. Bc it is much easier to get two good players for a combined caphit around 11mil.
Pretty much what you said in the 2nd paragraph

I agree that Willie is more attractive due to being lower caphit. Bc even with his new contract which should not be more than Tkachuk-9.5mil, Willie can easily live up to that contract.
 
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Gabriel426 said:
You misunderstood my point or I should had made it more clear.

When I was referring to Willie at 7mil cap hit, I meant if Willie is traded, it is harder to get two good pieces for 7mil caphit combined. Where as it is easier to get two good pieces when trading a 10mil plus player. Bc it is much easier to get two good players for a combined caphit around 11mil.
Pretty much what you said in the 2nd paragraph

I agree that Willie is more attractive due to being lower caphit. Bc even with his new contract which should not be more than Tkachuk-9.5mil, Willie can easily live up to that contract.
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I think we agree just fine.
 
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Treliving made a good point. Why blame just the core 4? Why don't we hold the GM accountable for having Kerfoot at a top 6 forward for large chunks? Justin Holl as a top 4 defenceman for 3 years? Jack Campbell? Petr Mrazek? Matt Murray?
 
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Brobust said:
Treliving made a good point. Why blame just the core 4? Why don't we hold the GM accountable for having Kerfoot at a top 6 forward for large chunks? Justin Holl as a top 4 defenceman for 3 years? Jack Campbell? Petr Mrazek? Matt Murray?
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I don’t think Holl, Kerfoot, Murray and others are the reason AM, MM and JT combined for 1 goal in 5 games.

I agree that Dubas is at fault for the goalie thing but he did signed Sammy.

The thing is if your top players don’t play like top players, you are not going to win many games.
 
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Brobust said:
Treliving made a good point. Why blame just the core 4? Why don't we hold the GM accountable for having Kerfoot at a top 6 forward for large chunks? Justin Holl as a top 4 defenceman for 3 years? Jack Campbell? Petr Mrazek? Matt Murray?
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Dubas kneecapped us perpetualy the minute he took over in the goaltending department.

Would be real nice to have a legit goalie
 
Gabriel426 said:
I don’t think Holl, Kerfoot, Murray and others are the reason AM, MM and JT combined for 1 goal in 5 games.

I agree that Dubas is at fault for the goalie thing but he did signed Sammy.

The thing is if your top players don’t play like top players, you are not going to win many games.
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If the players are good, and those 3 are supposed to be good. They are the Triple Double.

The three players who are alone in their own salary cap tier.

4th. guy is Rielly, at 7.5 and while he had an iffy regular season, he stepped up in the playoffs.
Rielly like Nylander are paying dividends, the Triple Double are more like Nortel in the playoffs.

How the coach kept doing the same thing when he knew the results never varied and the results were not what he wanted.

2021 - Series 1: Matthew + marner = 1
2023 - Series 2: Matthew + marner = 1
 
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Gabriel426 said:
I don’t think Holl, Kerfoot, Murray and others are the reason AM, MM and JT combined for 1 goal in 5 games.

I agree that Dubas is at fault for the goalie thing but he did signed Sammy.

The thing is if your top players don’t play like top players, you are not going to win many games.
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Why did it get to those 5 games?
 
Brobust said:
Treliving made a good point. Why blame just the core 4? Why don't we hold the GM accountable for having Kerfoot at a top 6 forward for large chunks? Justin Holl as a top 4 defenceman for 3 years? Jack Campbell? Petr Mrazek? Matt Murray?
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Indeed, he has gotten rid of the core four, not necessarily the players but the narrative.

Recall, when did the core four narrative start? It started with Dubas, who has now taken this concept and the emphasis of stars over team over to Pittsburgh.

What has this core four narrative gotten us? We got an inflated sense of the stars, with corresponding inflated salary, and the additional media pressure on them (e.g., Barkov and Tkachuk also scored very few points against the leafs but faced no such pressure).

The core four narrative should leave along with Dubas. We need to regard them as just another player (and replaceable one) of the team, kind of like going back to the way Lou ran this team. It should always be team first, player second.
 
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Brobust said:
Why did it get to those 5 games?
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If AM, JT and MM scored just two more goals in those 5 games, we might be winning 1-0 in the Cup Finals against Vegas.

As to why they got to play in the 2nd round, that’s bc the top 3 guys played and produced like the top 3 guys. You are really not helping with your own argument if you want to say that they played their part.
 
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