The Core Has To Go

[authentic]

4-1 series lost, lost all THREE home games, our top 3 guys got ONE goal in FIVE games and the team could not score more than TWO goals a game?

How can that be good?

If any teams in the league lost all three home games in and the series in 5 games, their top 3 guys only managed to score ONE goal, you will be laughing at anyone who said that team did good.


Why are we letting player dictate his terms?
this is not the time to sign a short deal or a bridge deal. 7-8 yrs around McD value or we will trade you.

There's a difference between losing close games when the other team has a wayyy better goalie, and not showing up. Why are we going to sit here and pretend they weren't getting dozens of scoring chances for most of that series? Yes, the result was not good, not converting on your chances is not good, but look at Carolina the following round. They were shutout and had another game with just 1 goal. Bobrovsky was playing on another level and that was by far the main reason we lost the series.

A team worth blowing up doesn't compete well with teams in the Stanley Cup finals, and yes they did compete well even if it ended after 5 games. They were not getting blown out of the water by any means and infact we outplayed them twice by more than they outplayed us in any single game.

 

[egd27]

this is why we can't have nice things... SMH

Only nice thing I want is a long playoff run that hopefully ends with a Cup win. I don't really care if I have a nice #2C

 

[4thline]

If JT signs for 10, chances are Matty signs closer to JT and Eichel than McDavid. Marner then follows suit so you probably save $1m on each.

Based on what? What makes you think that a guy that completely disregarded JT's real life contract would suddenly care about a hypothetically lower one? The guy that disregarded the discount McDavid gave the Oilers and said "good for you, I don't accept the precedent, I'm gonna get mine" does not care what contract John Tavares signs.

 

[Gabriel426]

There's a difference between losing close games when the other team has a wayyy better goalie, and not showing up. Why are we going to sit here and pretend they weren't getting dozens of scoring chances for most of that series? Yes, the result was not good, not converting on your chances is not good, but look at Carolina the following round. They were shutout and had another game with just 1 goal. Bobrovsky was playing on another level and that was by far the main reason we lost the series.

1. Canes never had talents like AM, MM and even JT(that’s arguable).
2. Scoring chances mean crap if they don’t convert to goals. If anything, won’t it make it worse if you have chances and couldn’t score?
3. Some here say Vas was crap but was he crap bc he was crap or was it bc the Leafs made him looked like crap?

The way the Leafs attacked TB was very different than the way they attacked Panthers. Most of the time against TB, they were struggling but once they attack, they always had someone in front of the net and was winning board battles, most importantly they played as a pack. They didn’t even play like that against Panthers, just look at the response after Knies injury or the hit on Kampf. They were right back at how they played and failed over the past few playoffs.

In this league it is about results, getting close means progress. Beating TB with the way they played was progress but playing against Panthers, they regressed.

The fact that the top three guys combined for ONE goal is ridiculous. And all they ever come up was, bounces didn’t go our way, it is tough to win….no fire and deep down they might believe they were really just unlucky. You look what Mack said after another playoff loss and how fired he was and that he openly said he hadn’t won s&&&… then he won the Cup the next year. You take a look at the Celtics players after going down 0-3 to the Heats, none of them said stuff like, we were unlucky, didn’t get the bounces….most if not all of them said, they suck, and needed to do better, got to give more and one of them even said it was an embarrassment to the team, fans and franchise. Saying that means they know they were bad and needed to do better. Eventually they loss in Game 7 but it showed they knew they needed to do better, they got more to give and that’s why they won three straight.
The first step to giving more is to admit and understand that there is more to give. I really don’t think they top guys know that as they probably think they did their best and just couldn’t get the bounces.

 

[Racer88]

Then how should Brad structure the cap?

Obviously spread some of it out over other positions. Having said that, I think that he is going to have a tough time with the mess Dubas has left him

 

[Boxscore]

If you think that Austin Matthews gave/gives two shits about an arbitrary ceiling imposed by a lesser player you haven't been paying attention.

Oh, I've definitely been paying attention. At the time Tavares signed, he was not a "lesser player" than Matthews. And his deal absolutely set the bar for the kids who came up through the system.

If Tavares takes 9.5, Nylander likely takes 6.25, Marner 9, and Matthews being the last one of the group to sign, either follows suit and takes about 10.5 or still squeezes every drop out of MLSE, which is a clear indictment of his character. But when the entire core -- lead by Tavares -- all demand top dollar, you can't expect a player like Matthews to be the only one leaving a crap ton of money on the table. I'm not defending him, just putting it in perspective.

Now there's no more hiding. A new precedent must be set with these contracts, beginning with Matthews.

 

[authentic]

1. Canes never had talents like AM, MM and even JT(that’s arguable).
2. Scoring chances mean crap if they don’t convert to goals. If anything, won’t it make it worse if you have chances and couldn’t score?
3. Some here say Vas was crap but was he crap bc he was crap or was it bc the Leafs made him looked like crap?

The way the Leafs attacked TB was very different than the way they attacked Panthers. Most of the time against TB, they were struggling but once they attack, they always had someone in front of the net and was winning board battles, most importantly they played as a pack. They didn’t even play like that against Panthers, just look at the response after Knies injury or the hit on Kampf. They were right back at how they played and failed over the past few playoffs.

In this league it is about results, getting close means progress. Beating TB with the way they played was progress but playing against Panthers, they regressed.

The fact that the top three guys combined for ONE goal is ridiculous. And all they ever come up was, bounces didn’t go our way, it is tough to win….no fire and deep down they might believe they were really just unlucky. You look what Mack said after another playoff loss and how fired he was and that he openly said he hadn’t won s&&&… then he won the Cup the next year. You take a look at the Celtics players after going down 0-3 to the Heats, none of them said stuff like, we were unlucky, didn’t get the bounces….most if not all of them said, they suck, and needed to do better, got to give more and one of them even said it was an embarrassment to the team, fans and franchise. Saying that means they know they were bad and needed to do better. Eventually they loss in Game 7 but it showed they knew they needed to do better, they got more to give and that’s why they won three straight.
The first step to giving more is to admit and understand that there is more to give. I really don’t think they top guys know that as they probably think they did their best and just couldn’t get the bounces.

1, No but they made it further than we have in the playoffs, and Aho is easily better than JT
2. No one is saying they mean anything more than it being a little different than not showing up at all, which would be getting outchanced on top of outscored, and that simply wasn't the case. That also doesn't mean they couldn't have done better either, I'm not totally against what you're saying here.
3. When Toronto turned it up in the 3rd period they scored. I would say that's their biggest fault, not playing a full 60 minutes. Of course no team plays all out for a full 60 every game but Toronto is probably the worst team I've seen in that sense.

I do think you have a point with how they attacked Florida vs. Tampa, but at the end of the day they did have a lot of chances right in the slot and there were a few goals on screens and tips, etc., but there's no denying Bobrovsky's performance has been straight up best in the world by far for 2 straight rounds, some of the best playoff goaltending I've ever seen to be honest. It's hard to overstate how much it would benefit Toronto to have a performance like that from one of our goalies that consistently.

My point is I'm not sure if that was a "blow up the team" worthy performance all things considered. I even said myself after they lost that I wouldn't mind trading a few players for some more depth as teams like Vegas and Seattle have shown success with while lacking the top end talent, but it's also under the assumption we would for sure be getting multiple quality players back and I don't know now that that's even realistic. We'll have to see how this offseason plays out but I just wonder what you propose we do exactly, who are we trading and what do we expect to get back that would make a difference?

 

[Boxscore]

My point is I'm not sure if that was a "blow up the team" worthy performance all things considered.

The Leafs are in a bind with this core.

1. Over 82gp regular season games the Leafs core is likely the most entertaining and exciting in the NHL. They are fun players to watch, win a lot of games, and make the Leafs relevant. They seduce you with their talent and continually give you hope that this is finally the year they put it all together and make a Cup run.

2. If you breakup the core and ice a team that is less exciting during the season, there's still no guarantees you win a Cup. So you're sacrificing 82 games worth of high-tempo excitement for a new hope of winning. This could easily backfire.

3. The Leafs cannot afford to make a mistake in any trade involving the core 4. They absolutely must make the team immediately better without losing anything in the process. This means we are at the mercy of other teams willing to offer a fair return. Kids like Matthew Tkachuk likely only get traded once -- we missed the boat with him. Do we truly want to deal a Marner, Matthews, or Nylander for a bucket full of multiple "meh" pieces? I don't. Unless these kids price themselves off the team, then the Leafs are completely screwed.

The Leafs brass realize only one team out of 32 get to win a Cup each year, so the odds are heavily stacked against them. But they realize they have an uber exciting team that keeps the fans excited and engaged in the product full-time. They don't want to mess that up. They also have invested a ton in this core and hope to see their investments pay off.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Oh, I've definitely been paying attention. At the time Tavares signed, he was not a "lesser player" than Matthews. And his deal absolutely set the bar for the kids who came up through the system.

If Tavares takes 9.5, Nylander likely takes 6.25, Marner 9, and Matthews being the last one of the group to sign, either follows suit and takes about 10.5 or still squeezes every drop out of MLSE, which is a clear indictment of his character. But when the entire core -- lead by Tavares -- all demand top dollar, you can't expect a player like Matthews to be the only one leaving a crap ton of money on the table. I'm not defending him, just putting it in perspective.

Now there's no more hiding. A new precedent must be set with these contracts, beginning with Matthews.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

The Leafs are in a bind with this core.

1. Over 82gp regular season games the Leafs core is likely the most entertaining and exciting in the NHL. They are fun players to watch, win a lot of games, and make the Leafs relevant. They seduce you with their talent and continually give you hope that this is finally the year they put it all together and make a Cup run.

2. If you breakup the core and ice a team that is less exciting during the season, there's still no guarantees you win a Cup. So you're sacrificing 82 games worth of high-tempo excitement for a new hope of winning. This could easily backfire.

3. The Leafs cannot afford to make a mistake in any trade involving the core 4. They absolutely must make the team immediately better without losing anything in the process. This means we are at the mercy of other teams willing to offer a fair return. Kids like Matthew Tkachuk likely only get traded once -- we missed the boat with him. Do we truly want to deal a Marner, Matthews, or Nylander for a bucket full of multiple "meh" pieces? I don't. Unless these kids price themselves off the team, then the Leafs are completely screwed.

The Leafs brass realize only one team out of 32 get to win a Cup each year, so the odds are heavily stacked against them. But they realize they have an uber exciting team that keeps the fans excited and engaged in the product full-time. They don't want to mess that up. They also have invested a ton in this core and hope to see their investments pay off.

I usually agree 100% with your posts but I have a bone to pick with this one. Frankly I find the Leafs' perimeter ring around the rosie non contact hockey boring. And as we all know you certainly won't win playing that way in the playoffs.

Time for a change.

 

[ToneDog]

Oh, I've definitely been paying attention. At the time Tavares signed, he was not a "lesser player" than Matthews. And his deal absolutely set the bar for the kids who came up through the system.

If Tavares takes 9.5, Nylander likely takes 6.25, Marner 9, and Matthews being the last one of the group to sign, either follows suit and takes about 10.5 or still squeezes every drop out of MLSE, which is a clear indictment of his character. But when the entire core -- lead by Tavares -- all demand top dollar, you can't expect a player like Matthews to be the only one leaving a crap ton of money on the table. I'm not defending him, just putting it in perspective.

Now there's no more hiding. A new precedent must be set with these contracts, beginning with Matthews.

Matty signed before Mitch. Mitch used Matty as his comparable and Dubas capitulated. Marner could have been had the previous summer for a cap hit in the 8s but Dubas passed. The usual suspects blame that on Lou for teaching him if you have time use it. LOL.

 

[Boxscore]

Matty signed before Mitch. Mitch used Matty as his comparable and Dubas capitulated. Marner could have been had the previous summer for a cap hit in the 8s but Dubas passed. The usual suspects blame that on Lou for teaching him if you have time use it. LOL.

You are correct in the order, although why did it feel to me that Matthews was last? Maybe because it was quick and easy since the Leafs gave him a blank check and said: fill and return.

 

[Boxscore]

I usually agree 100% with your posts but I have a bone to pick with this one. Frankly I find the Leafs' perimeter ring around the rosie non contact hockey boring. And as we all know you certainly won't win playing that way in the playoffs.

Time for a change.

Yes, this style doesn't win in the playoffs when other teams are playing desperate, blocking shots, and mixing it up. The playoffs are a war of attrition, gutsy heroes, clutch performances, and lucky bounces. But for 82 games I happen to enjoy watching the Leafs quite a bit. I like the excitement, the creativity, the goals, and even the Hall & Oates tbh -- all of that is just fun to me. Until playoffs.

That said, give me a 92-93 Clark and Gilmour lead bunch any day and I'd be thrilled.

 

[ToneDog]

You are correct in the order, although why did it feel to me that Matthews was last? Maybe because it was quick and easy since the Leafs gave him a blank check and said: fill and return.

Matty should have been last. Mitch may not have wanted to negotiate during the season and probably the reason he went last. Another rookie error.

 

[Gabriel426]

Yes, this style doesn't win in the playoffs when other teams are playing desperate, blocking shots, and mixing it up. The playoffs are a war of attrition, gutsy heroes, clutch performances, and lucky bounces. But for 82 games I happen to enjoy watching the Leafs quite a bit. I like the excitement, the creativity, the goals, and even the Hall & Oates tbh -- all of that is just fun to me. Until playoffs.

That said, give me a 92-93 Clark and Gilmour lead bunch any day and I'd be thrilled.

Is it entertaining and enjoyable due to they winning most games?
I agree they shouldn’t make trade for the sake of making trades esp when it comes to the big 4.
However, I really don’t think changing one of the big four for another 2 solid mid 6 forwards will have such an affect that the Leafs will lose 10 more games.
AM wasn’t AM and JT sucked at 5v5 all season and they still managed to get 111pts.
Production wise, two forwards making 5.5mil unless they are duds will most likely equal the production(goals) of any of our big 4 plus our 12th forward esp if one of them is on the PP like our big 4.
For example, I don’t think JT Miller and Garland production on the Leafs will be less than AM or MM or JT plus ZAR. Maybe 3 yrs from now. That won’t be the case for the next 2-3 seasons, they will be pretty much the same.

 

[Gabriel426]

1, No but they made it further than we have in the playoffs, and Aho is easily better than JT
2. No one is saying they mean anything more than it being a little different than not showing up at all, which would be getting outchanced on top of outscored, and that simply wasn't the case. That also doesn't mean they couldn't have done better either, I'm not totally against what you're saying here.
3. When Toronto turned it up in the 3rd period they scored. I would say that's their biggest fault, not playing a full 60 minutes. Of course no team plays all out for a full 60 every game but Toronto is probably the worst team I've seen in that sense.

I do think you have a point with how they attacked Florida vs. Tampa, but at the end of the day they did have a lot of chances right in the slot and there were a few goals on screens and tips, etc., but there's no denying Bobrovsky's performance has been straight up best in the world by far for 2 straight rounds, some of the best playoff goaltending I've ever seen to be honest. It's hard to overstate how much it would benefit Toronto to have a performance like that from one of our goalies that consistently.

My point is I'm not sure if that was a "blow up the team" worthy performance all things considered. I even said myself after they lost that I wouldn't mind trading a few players for some more depth as teams like Vegas and Seattle have shown success with while lacking the top end talent, but it's also under the assumption we would for sure be getting multiple quality players back and I don't know now that that's even realistic. We'll have to see how this offseason plays out but I just wonder what you propose we do exactly, who are we trading and what do we expect to get back that would make a difference?

I think everyone can agree that getting bounces are important in the playoffs but did the Leafs created enough situations for getting into positions to create chances for getting the bounces? Now I don’t think anyone ever come up with that stats but it will be interesting to dive into.
One thing for sure, the boys put themselves in far more favourable positions to getting bounces against TB than they did against Panthers.

 

[myleafs]

Oh, I've definitely been paying attention. At the time Tavares signed, he was not a "lesser player" than Matthews. And his deal absolutely set the bar for the kids who came up through the system.

If Tavares takes 9.5, Nylander likely takes 6.25, Marner 9, and Matthews being the last one of the group to sign, either follows suit and takes about 10.5 or still squeezes every drop out of MLSE, which is a clear indictment of his character. But when the entire core -- lead by Tavares -- all demand top dollar, you can't expect a player like Matthews to be the only one leaving a crap ton of money on the table. I'm not defending him, just putting it in perspective.

Now there's no more hiding. A new precedent must be set with these contracts, beginning with Matthews.

The only thing I would say about the bolded is they can ask for the moon, but you dont have to give it to them and then offer up jupiter as well. Dubas gave these guys absolutely everything and more, thats on him.

 

[authentic]

I think everyone can agree that getting bounces are important in the playoffs but did the Leafs created enough situations for getting into positions to create chances for getting the bounces? Now I don’t think anyone ever come up with that stats but it will be interesting to dive into.
One thing for sure, the boys put themselves in far more favourable positions to getting bounces against TB than they did against Panthers.

So what do you think the team should do, who should go, what do you expect to get back

 

[Gaberd2608]

So what do you think the team should do, who should go, what do you expect to get back

I think mathematically we can only keep 2 of the 3. Tavares is a sunk cost and assuming we honour the nmc he stays.

Realistically the ranking is matthews, marner, then nylander but i think there is only a max at which matthews can be signed. There seems to be a range thrown around on here in the 12s to the 15s. I think a number starting with a 14 or 15 is unrealistic but if thats where matthews head is at there isnt much the leafs can do. The only good thing is that it is unlikely any other team will give him that either. If he wants to squeeze for 13.5ish and 3-4 years we prob will need to trade one of nylander or marner for 2 lesser players to allow us to field a team. Matthews will also need to know he wont be playing with the same caliber winger due to the limited cap space. Thats the thing that blows my mind. He wants every possible concession and gives nothing. Crosby played with scrubs and carried the line. Even tavares played with scrubs and carried the line. Why does matthews need marner to go. At 13 million he should be playing with knies and jarnkrok.

 

[Gabriel426]

So what do you think the team should do, who should go, what do you expect to get back

I have been having this type of discussions with a couple of posters here since the Habs series.
One of the things is that we are not in the locker room with these guys, thus I don’t know how they were acting when the going got tough….who stood up and who hid in the shadows waiting for someone to lead.

When some suggest bring them back, it is really bringing back the Big 5 bc ROR made it quite clear he is not coming back and quite frankly, I really don’t think the Leafs can get a more talented team on paper than the one we had since TDL. Kerfoot, Holl and Bunting priced themselves out, Bunting will be miss the most.

To me, beside the obvious Murray, JT is the obvious choice bc he really doesn’t provide a lot of intangibles and the fact that he openly stated he doesn’t mind moving to LW just made his case worst.
TJ is another player whom I think should be move and get someone more physical and take the bumps along the boards.

When it comes AM, MM and Willie. Assuming they all want to be here on reasonable contracts like AM at 12.5mil instead of 14mil. When it comes to trading them, it really depends on who is coming back. Trading AM means a 1C has to be coming back our way. With MM and Willie, there are more flexibility with Centering a Dman coming our way with another forward. In Willie case, it will be harder bc his caphit is at 7mil.

To answer your question, I am against trades for the sake of trades or blow it up bc I don’t think this team is at the blow up stage. Rather the boys need to know that this is it, Cup or Bust. None of them said anything remotely to Cup or Bust and to me, that’s a huge concern. To me, if one or more of the big four are traded, one of the player, if not all players, coming back need to be vocal leaders and HATE losing. I mean, he must be an a****le but he cares about winning and make others follow.
I really think having Marleau around screwed their mindset, and that’s something that even Lou and Babs didn’t expect.

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

I have been having this type of discussions with a couple of posters here since the Habs series.
One of the things is that we are not in the locker room with these guys, thus I don’t know how they were acting when the going got tough….who stood up and who hid in the shadows waiting for someone to lead.

When some suggest bring them back, it is really bringing back the Big 5 bc ROR made it quite clear he is not coming back and quite frankly, I really don’t think the Leafs can get a more talented team on paper than the one we had since TDL. Kerfoot, Holl and Bunting priced themselves out, Bunting will be miss the most.

To me, beside the obvious Murray, JT is the obvious choice bc he really doesn’t provide a lot of intangibles and the fact that he openly stated he doesn’t mind moving to LW just made his case worst.
TJ is another player whom I think should be move and get someone more physical and take the bumps along the boards.

When it comes AM, MM and Willie. Assuming they all want to be here on reasonable contracts like AM at 12.5mil instead of 14mil. When it comes to trading them, it really depends on who is coming back. Trading AM means a 1C has to be coming back our way. With MM and Willie, there are more flexibility with Centering a Dman coming our way with another forward. In Willie case, it will be harder bc his caphit is at 7mil.

To answer your question, I am against trades for the sake of trades or blow it up bc I don’t think this team is at the blow up stage. Rather the boys need to know that this is it, Cup or Bust. None of them said anything remotely to Cup or Bust and to me, that’s a huge concern. To me, if one or more of the big four are traded, one of the player, if not all players, coming back need to be vocal leaders and HATE losing. I mean, he must be an a****le but he cares about winning and make others follow.
I really think having Marleau around screwed their mindset, and that’s something that even Lou and Babs didn’t expect.

Cathal Kelly of G&M has a great article and mentions a point about this team having no rage for losing; whether they win small, big, lose big or small, it’s always the same lifeless apathy they show. They don’t hate to lose, they hate to give everything in them to win

 

[Maple Leaf]

Too much cash tied up in these cats who don't come up big when it matters most

 

[Gabriel426]

Cathal Kelly of G&M has a great article and mentions a point about this team having no rage for losing; whether they win small, big, lose big or small, it’s always the same lifeless apathy they show. They don’t hate to lose, they hate to give everything in them to win

Going to take a look at that article, thanks.

For a while, I had been saying the guys really think their regular season is 89games. That changed last playoffs. And then how they played and responded in the 2nd round left me speechless.
To me, if they played the way they did against TB in the 2nd round, like take no crap from the other team and had the pack mentality(Knies and Kampf incident), then come out and take accountability like the Celtics players after Game 3. Not saying I will be fine with the result but I will be on board for let’s bring them back for another go.

 

[Boxscore]

The only thing I would say about the bolded is they can ask for the moon, but you dont have to give it to them and then offer up jupiter as well. Dubas gave these guys absolutely everything and more, thats on him.

This is true.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Yes, this style doesn't win in the playoffs when other teams are playing desperate, blocking shots, and mixing it up. The playoffs are a war of attrition, gutsy heroes, clutch performances, and lucky bounces. But for 82 games I happen to enjoy watching the Leafs quite a bit. I like the excitement, the creativity, the goals, and even the Hall & Oates tbh -- all of that is just fun to me. Until playoffs.

That said, give me a 92-93 Clark and Gilmour lead bunch any day and I'd be thrilled.

That's the issue with teams now...it's hard to get to the playoffs by playing playoff style hockey. Look at Calgary and Sutter...the issue is to try and have enough jam throughout the season that it won't seem so different come April. Harder to do than to say unfortunately for us. I would still prefer we don't have an organizational attitude that we are playing gentlemanly hockey out there and will win without violence. It was a stupid idea that you pointed out quite well in another post. Kudos to you!

I think everyone can agree that getting bounces are important in the playoffs but did the Leafs created enough situations for getting into positions to create chances for getting the bounces? Now I don’t think anyone ever come up with that stats but it will be interesting to dive into.
One thing for sure, the boys put themselves in far more favourable positions to getting bounces against TB than they did against Panthers.

Luck is when preparation and opportunity meet.