The Core Has To Go

[4thline]

If Tavares agrees to a $9.5 cap hit, it immediately sets the tone for the young Leafs to follow his lead, which likely equals $6.25 for Nylander, $9.25 for Marner, and $10 mil for Matthews (on a longer term).

If you think that Austin Matthews gave/gives two shits about an arbitrary ceiling imposed by a lesser player you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Gabriel426]

I can't tell if this is serious or sarcastic, but just in case it is serious... Tampa Bay, when they finally won, had three, arguably four, players more valuable than stamkos.

Considering Stamkos missed pretty much every game in one playoffs and was just okay in the other. Having said that, he was making 8.5mil/yr, which tied him with Hedman being the 3rd highest paid player on the team and the 5th and 6th highest paid players only make 1-2mil less than him.
In other words, he wasn't paid to carry the load and TB could afford Stamkos to be the 4th or 5th best players in the playoffs.

 

[seventieslord]

Considering Stamkos missed pretty much every game in one playoffs and was just okay in the other. Having said that, he was making 8.5mil/yr, which tied him with Hedman being the 3rd highest paid player on the team and the 5th and 6th highest paid players only make 1-2mil less than him.
In other words, he wasn't paid to carry the load and TB could afford Stamkos to be the 4th or 5th best players in the playoffs.

Correct. I think we're all on the same page here. Arguments about how long it took Stamkos to win are not valid because when he did, he was no longer even one of the "core three". Totally different situation.

They didn't win the cup because the team was patient with him for however long it took for him to figure it out. They just had three better players who figured it out before he did. I would argue he hasn't really even figured it out to this point.

 

[myleafs]

Then how should Brad structure the cap?

Even if you have 4 players making as much as the core it needs to be spread around imo
matthews, marner hedman vassy looks a lot better as an example

 

[Gabriel426]

Correct. I think we're all on the same page here. Arguments about how long it took Stamkos to win are not valid because when he did, he was no longer even one of the "core three". Totally different situation.

Exactly. When Stamkos won, he was not the alpha of the team. The good thing is that TB didn't paid him like an Alpha either.

Even if you have 4 players making as much as the core it needs to be spread around imo
matthews, marner hedman vassy looks a lot better as an example

or at the very least, those four players need to perform at their salary level in the playoffs.

 

[NVious]

MacLean thinks you can't build a team with Matty at 14 unless cap rises significantly or you move 16 or 88. Thinks top 4 should not make more than 34.5m. Kyle tried and failed 5 years.

We couldn't build a team with him at 11, now he wants a raise lmfao.

Just straight up ask him if he values money or winning, tell him after he gets the cup you'll max him out, but obviously he won't do that because he cares more about money than winning.

 

[ToneDog]

We couldn't build a team with him at 11, now he wants a raise lmfao.

Just straight up ask him if he values money or winning, tell him after he gets the cup you'll max him out, but obviously he won't do that because he cares more about money than winning.

Yeah, problem is you can't let him leave so if the cap does not rise significantly somebody making big bucks needs to go. If Matty does not want that to be Marner, lower your demands or trade them all, one by one and do a reset. They are not winning this year or next filling the roster with UFAs in July.

 

[ToneDog]

If you think that Austin Matthews gave/gives two shits about an arbitrary ceiling imposed by a lesser player you haven't been paying attention.

If JT signs for 10, chances are Matty signs closer to JT and Eichel than McDavid. Marner then follows suit so you probably save $1m on each.

 

[MCR74]

Matthews, Marner and Nylander have been coddled long enough. If Treliving plans on protecting/shield them, then the organization will never get enough out of them. They will continue to disappoint in the post season. It is time for them to grow the f' up!

l'd trade one just to send a message. l don't expect either of them to put in the extra effort if/ when they sign their next deal in TO.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Of the core 4 the one player that should go first ideally would be Tavares because of age and lack of speed and poor 5v5 play and mainly because his $11 mil is a boat anchor on Leafs Salary Cap.

Problem he has a full NMC and say he plans on playing it out.

Leafs Cap hell began with the luxuary purchase but not required/needed signing of JT to the highest UFA contract in a Salary cap world at the time and they could get themselves out if they could find a team Tavares would agree to go to.

The thinking probably was that he was an 80pt player on shitty teams. Put him on a good team without Matt Moulson's and he would put up big numbers and make a difference. He somehow degrades WN and still gets only 80pts. What a shitshow of a signing in retrospect.

All I know is that I said to everyone that Nazim will be gone within a year because he would not like the fact JT was making almost 3x what Naz was making and the team got a luxury upgrade they didn't need. I didn't think Naz did very well in his last season on the 3rd line and the rest is history.

 

[ToneDog]

l'd trade one just to send a message. l don't expect either of them to put in the extra effort if/ when they sign their next deal in TO.

It would have to be Marner. On one hand, you usually do not win a trade when you are giving up the best player. On the other, these guys fold in the playoffs so maybe you are better off bringing in players who's sum of the parts are greater than those of the individuals.

 

[notDatsyuk]

MacLean thinks you can't build a team with Matty at 14 unless cap rises significantly or you move 16 or 88. Thinks top 4 should not make more than 34.5m. Kyle tried and failed 5 years.

Top four? The top three (in cap hit) make $33.5M!

Until Tavares leaves, via trade or contract expiry, we won't be in a good position.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Opinion | Leafs GM needs to get more from (or for) the Core Four — not protect them

Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, William Nylander and John Tavares they’ve been coddled and catered to as though they were multiple Stanley Cup winners.

www.thestar.com

And so he can arrive in the centre of the hockey universe and only pretend to have a clue. He can also make plenty of mistakes. Such as his ill-advised utterance: “This can’t be about the Core Four. The success of this team, or whatever challenges we have, isn’t because of four guys or two guys or one guy. It’s about the group.”

The problem is, the whole failed experiment that’s been the last seven years has told everybody who’s actually paying attention that the exact opposite is true.

The success of this team — or rather the lack thereof in the playoffs — is about precisely four guys. It’s about four highly skilled and largely toothless forwards who take up 50 per cent of the salary cap. It’s about the inanity of continuing to build a roster so inherently unbalanced.

Even Dubas, in his final press conference as Leafs GM, seemed to be coming around to the idea that, after years of deftly swapping role players around the edges of the roster to little avail come playoff time, now might be the moment to take a knife to the meat of the thing.

And that’s the sad truth: Dubas, gone now, was deft at finding value off the NHL scrap heap. He was excellent at filling in the annual roster holes even as the salary-cap crunch loomed. There’s no evidence Treliving has the first clue how to do any of that.

Alas, maybe this is what you get when you swap out a GM who won one playoff series in five seasons for a GM who won a grand total of two in nine seasons. Upgrades, baby, upgrades.

Treliving’s boldest move in Calgary, the Matthew Tkachuk trade, was one of desperation — and it was, to be clear, a very good one, the salvaging of a potential disaster.

But now the Leafs are asking the GM who let an American star named Johnny Gaudreau leave Calgary in free agency for nothing to walk the fine line of placating an impending free agent named Auston Matthews while also encouraging Matthews to sign a deal that’s at least a little more team friendly than his last one. They’re asking Treliving to jump on a moving train, get his bearings and make informed decisions for which he can’t possibly have anywhere near the required institutional knowledge.

Between now and then, let’s hope somebody helps Treliving read the room. With patience waning here, the new general manager arrived in town and admired the beauty of the status quo.

“Just being different doesn’t necessarily make you better,” Treliving insisted, ripping the words right out of Shanahan’s mouth.

If being different doesn’t necessarily make you better, all residents of Leafs Nation can say this: Remaining the same, only more expensive, can definitely make you worse.

“My job is to protect them,” Treliving countered, speaking of the Core Four.

The idea that Toronto’s Core Four need a protector is preposterous. For the entirety of their stay in Toronto they’ve been coddled and catered to as though they were a quartet of multiple Stanley Cup winners. When mean old Mike Babcock ran afoul of them, Babcock was fired. When Sheldon Keefe spoke the slightest word against them last season, he was made to backtrack like a stooge.

So, no. Treliving’s job, if he’s actually doing it, shouldn’t be to protect them. His job should be to maximize them, through trade or torment, carrot or stick. The thing that attracted him to the job — “It’s the Leafs” — either resonates with the Core Four or it doesn’t. Having just been hired by a president who’s so attached to the quartet, mind you, you can’t blame Treliving for paying homage to his newly inherited collection of talent.

I know some people don't like Feschuk but he is pretty much the only guy besides Simmons who tells the truth and doesn't kiss up to MLSE with praise over everything all the time. He is right...the players don't need to be protected anymore...that's probably why they never take responsibility for their failures. It's always "The puck didn't drop for us"..."We played against a great goalie"..etc.

Ryan O'Reilly who had been here 6 weeks said he had to be better...that's it...not one other guy took a bullet for the way they played...and now Tree wants to protect them? God help us...

 

[MCR74]

It would have to be Marner. On one hand, you usually do not win a trade when you are giving up the best player. On the other, these guys fold in the playoffs so maybe you are better off bringing in players who's sum of the parts are greater than those of the individuals.

Exactly. l have a very hard time buying that they'll somehow deliver in the playoffs after signing a bigger deal. If we run it back again with status quo results, then what? l guess l'm juat tired of the excuses.

 

[authentic]

Read some tweets that some fans are all up in arms when Treliving said they played better and lost last year against TB on Overdrive and started saying he is blaming on bounces and stuff like Dubas too. Here is the thing, no new GM would go into the team and ripped it apart and stated they didn't show up against the Panthers. Even when Lou came in to do the tank job, he didn't came in and said the team sucked and needed to finish last.....

Well it's also not true at all. We outplayed Florida pretty clearly in game 2 and 5 and game 1 was more or less even. We did really poorly in game 3 of course and were probably outplayed in game 4 but we won that one.

Sounds like this GM is very much intuned with reality instead of false narratives

 

[Menzinger]

MacLean thinks you can't build a team with Matty at 14 unless cap rises significantly or you move 16 or 88. Thinks top 4 should not make more than 34.5m. Kyle tried and failed 5 years.

It's likely going to start rising quite significantly in the next 2-4 seasons. Will be 90 mil before not too long

 

[ToneDog]

It's likely going to start rising quite significantly in the next 2-4 seasons. Will be 90 mil before not too long

In which case, maybe he'd be willing to take a 3 year deal at @12.7m. By then JT will be off the books and he can ring the bell again.

 

[Menzinger]

In which case, maybe he'd be willing to take a 3 year deal at @12.7m. By then JT will be off the books and he can ring the bell again.

I think the Leafs will push for at least 4 years if he ultimately really wants to go as short as possible.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

It's likely going to start rising quite significantly in the next 2-4 seasons. Will be 90 mil before not too long

Bally Sports still ain't making many payments. Wishful thinking.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Well it's also not true at all. We outplayed Florida pretty clearly in game 2 and 5 and game 1 was more or less even. We did really poorly in game 3 of course and were probably outplayed in game 4 but we won that one.

Sounds like this GM is very much intuned with reality instead of false narratives

Those terms get trotted out every year after another disappointment. At which point do the false ones become the realistic ones? There are excuses for every team and every situation should someone be arguing why their team is out.

The fact that these 3 guys for the most part never come through in the clutch situations is not false anymore...it looks like a fact.

And BTW...we got outplayed by TB and fluked off our only series win because Vassy shit the bed.

 

[authentic]

Those terms get trotted out every year after another disappointment. At which point do the false ones become the realistic ones? There are excuses for every team and every situation should someone be arguing why their team is out.

The fact that these 3 guys for the most part never come through in the clutch situations is not false anymore...it looks like a fact.

And BTW...we got outplayed by TB and fluked off our only series win because Vassy shit the bed.

Everything he said/didn't say was true, including the fact that we looked better against Tampa last year even though we lost. We would've had the series over with in game 6 if they didn't get a phantom 5 on 3 to save them then who knows what happens after that. Also given how Bobrovsky went on to play against Florida it's tough to argue that we didn't just face a former 2-time Vezina trophy goalie who reached an out of this world form. The scoring chances each team had are available and we all watched the games, they do not lie. Doesn't make sense not to give our team credit when we win but get outplayed and then when we lose and the series could've easily gone either way if not for facing beyond elite goaltending say we didn't show up. That's what I mean by false narratives.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Tavares is the guy that needs to go
New #2 center is the

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Everything he said/didn't say was true, including the fact that we looked better against Tampa last year even though we lost. We would've had the series over with in game 6 if they didn't get a phantom 5 on 3 to save them then who knows what happens after that. Also given how Bobrovsky went on to play against Florida it's tough to argue that we didn't just face a former 2-time Vezina trophy goalie who reached an out of this world form. The scoring chances each team had are available and we all watched the games, they do not lie. Doesn't make sense not to give our team credit when we win but get outplayed and then when we lose and the series could've easily gone either way if not for facing beyond elite goaltending say we didn't show up. That's what I mean by false narratives.

Yawn. The wE GOt GoaLIEd excuse is boring.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Everything he said/didn't say was true, including the fact that we looked better against Tampa last year even though we lost. We would've had the series over with in game 6 if they didn't get a phantom 5 on 3 to save them then who knows what happens after that. Also given how Bobrovsky went on to play against Florida it's tough to argue that we didn't just face a former 2-time Vezina trophy goalie who reached an out of this world form. The scoring chances each team had are available and we all watched the games, they do not lie. Doesn't make sense not to give our team credit when we win but get outplayed and then when we lose and the series could've easily gone either way if not for facing beyond elite goaltending say we didn't show up. That's what I mean by false narratives.

Do you consider the CBJ goalies to be elite? The reason we pay all that money to the core is to overcome those kinds of situations where a goalie is playing out of his mind. I think the core gets off easy in that if they lose and don't score...they got goalied and what would you expect them to do? If they win...it's because they are so talented. Why then did all 3 teams that beat us and went to the cup final lose in the end with the out of their mind goaltending? Could it be that the other cup finalists had players that just pushed through?

That is the main crux of my position...they were let off the hook against CBJ and since then there have been excuses coming out the wazoo for their benefit...be it penalties...getting goalied...injury to JT etc...

 

[Gabriel426]

Well it's also not true at all. We outplayed Florida pretty clearly in game 2 and 5 and game 1 was more or less even. We did really poorly in game 3 of course and were probably outplayed in game 4 but we won that one.

Sounds like this GM is very much intuned with reality instead of false narratives

4-1 series lost, lost all THREE home games, our top 3 guys got ONE goal in FIVE games and the team could not score more than TWO goals a game?

How can that be good?

If any teams in the league lost all three home games in and the series in 5 games, their top 3 guys only managed to score ONE goal, you will be laughing at anyone who said that team did good.

I think the Leafs will push for at least 4 years if he ultimately really wants to go as short as possible.

Why are we letting player dictate his terms?
this is not the time to sign a short deal or a bridge deal. 7-8 yrs around McD value or we will trade you.