The Core Has To Go

[Larcos_Unal]

If we can't get out of it, what are we doing then?

1. We are not contending for anything with him and his 11m on the cap so move on.
2. Tearing it down.
3. Remaining a regular season team for 2 years until the deal expires.
.

That's the order to follow to salvage anything. #3 is just a waste of everyone's time.

Pretty sure Dubas was thinking he'd have one or two rings by now and JT's declining play wouldn't be a topic of discussion. I don't see Dubas trying to move Tavares, his captain. Sadly, I can only see option #3 going forward.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Can't believe we still have 2 more years of JT. That's crazy. Feels like this guy has been here forever.

 

[Eye Test]

No pain from me. I've been calling for this core to be dismantled since 2019-2020. The only way one could feel pain in this scenario is if they had any expectations to begin with and if you had any expectations from this group, at this stage of the "Shanaplan", then that's on you and and you alone. Hope people start opening their eyes now, as they should have been doing 4 seasons ago.

I was actively cheering for Tampa in R1 and am actively cheering for Florida now. I'll always be a Leaf fan, but I cannot stand the current regime. I have never disliked any group more than this one, in my 30 years watching. I want what's best of the team. And just as I would actively cheer against them when they're tanking, I'll actively cheer against them now, if I believe that losing is the best long term solution. And it is. Fingers crossed that they simply lie down and die on Wednesday - it would be so on brand for them. Then, on Thursday morning, get rid of this entire regime, from Shanahan down.

Agree. Crazy that in my 30 years of watching too (and a ton of bad teams) this is my least favourite team to watch as well.

 

[Blanka]

The guy bleeds blue and white and that’s worth having.

LOL! No...no he does not. I have no idea where you got this from. Because he might have blocked a shot once upon a time? Please.

 

[janesy12]

When they inevitably lose this series you have to make major changes. Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe should all be moving on, along with several roster players.

8 full seasons of Shanahan.
7 seasons of playoff failures under Matthews/Marner/Nylander tenure.
5 seasons for Tavares.
5 seasons for Dubas.

2 different Head Coaches, both failures.

The only accomplishment? A lucky series win against an injury riddled, exhausted Tampa team that outplayed them in 5 of the 6 games. 1 regulation win.

At some point you have to make changes.

 

[socko]

Tavares just had his 2nd best statistical season in his 5 years with the Leafs. He's not really losing anything. He's the same slow finesse player he's always been.

 

[81Leafs50]

Mitch Marner is a tumor that needs to be removed. He has no playoff hockey in his DNA. He is a turnover machine and one of the biggest losers in the NHL. He goes, the rest will be fine.

 

[Stephen]

It will be a leaf thing to do .
The next three games will be there best games 3 - 3 series tied game at home .
Game 7 no show we lose.
Nothing is done in the offseason because that is what we do.

Seattle put up 7 on Dallas, they have no stars
Just a hard working team

I could totally see the Leafs going into fake hero mode, playing free and winning Game 4 and maybe 5 to force it to 6.I’m not saying it as a fan hopeful of this, but just the weird character of this team coming out and playing loose and free and elite for all the wrong reasons like not getting swept and some misguided self identity of “never going away.”

 

[Blanka]

If Matthews is not willing to resign this off season he has to be traded
Trade Marner, the fact OP want to keep him is absolutely crazy
Keep in mind both AM and MM have a full NMC starting next year

Rielly is cool
No one will want JT (and I truly believe JT will never, ever, agree to be traded)
As for Nylander I think that really depends on the return but I don't think trading him is a priority

edit: oh TJ Brodie has to go don't really care for the return

I really hope Toronto starts a retool with their new GM

I think we have to keep JT. No choice.

I like Nylander. What you see is what you get. No, you're not getting someone who's going to grind the corners and put on a defensive clinic, but he's going to put up points consistently when it matters.

Matthews and Marner? Get what you can and move on whatever that means.

Ironically, Nylander. Say what you want about his streakiness and his compete level, the guy is still a 40 goal, PPG player for under $7 million.

Matthews and Marner have never been worth their contracts. I remember thinking back in 2017 that this core had the potential to be the next Chicago Blackhawks, with Matthews being our Toews and Marner being our Kane. It's hilarious how both players received more than their Blackhawks counterparts, despite those Blackhawks counterparts having three Stanley Cups under their belts, as well as each individually winning the Conn Smythe, when we hadn't won a single round yet.

Our players have been given everything, despite earning nothing. It's no wonder they are the way they are. Entitlement is one of the main reasons society at large is such a mess these days and it runs rampant through MLSE, top to bottom. Burn it down.

I'm trying to upvote your post but there's nothing in the text editor that will allow it. Maybe I was penalized last week or something. I tend to black out sometimes.

Anywho, this post^10.

 

[Stephen]

Tavares just had his 2nd best statistical season in his 5 years with the Leafs. He's not really losing anything. He's the same slow finesse player he's always been.

I find Tavares is unwatchably bad 80% of the time he’s out there running around in running shoes, wrist shorting the puck in the slot into the safety net, missing masses, basically doing nothing.

But then he hits these PPG marks, piles on the points on the PP, scores the biggest goal in 20 years, gets a hat trick on home ice and those spikes mask over everything.

The other thing is the guy isn’t a leader. The fact that this team dead heads it all the time and is always looking for leadership would speak to the fact that they constantly have to find babysitters for the core.

JT would be the first to go on merit. But he’s contractually going to be here for 2 more years.

 

[Drytoast]

Yzerman. Drafted in 84, his Detroit Red Wings didn't win anything until 97. And his teams were not short on natural talent. Did Detroit give up on Stevie?

 

[socko]

You'd have to really sink low to get Tavares to agree to leave and I think Toronto is above that. He was never worth $11 million per year and that hasn't changed. I don't know that you can really change the makeup of the team though, without moving Marner. He represents the Leafs to me on ice as much as Dubas does off of it.

 

[napoleon in rags]

At the start of the playoffs, I watched with hope but no expectations. I now watch with neither hope nor expectation.

I will be missing Wednesday game due to crewing on a racing sailboat. At first I was torn when I saw the schedule. Now, I don't care. As the bumper sticker says, I'd rather be sailing.

When the Leafs selected Matthews and in his very first game scored four goals, I thought he, coupled with Marner, were our hockey messiahs. Turns out they are just false prophets.

Good luck to Dubas or whoever will be making the hard decisions on this core.

 

[ryno23]

anyone want to revisit the Marner for Matthew Tkachuk deal they probably could have swung this past summer. He is the greasy element in the top 6 that is lacking.

So you lose Marner and all his junior hockey high risk passing but you would have gained a DOG who knows how play in the playoffs.

 

[yubbers]

Agree. Crazy that in my 30 years of watching too (and a ton of bad teams) this is my least favourite team to watch as well.

I haven't watched the Leafs for the last 2 years. First time in my life I haven't been watching 60-70 games every season.

I hate management and the team.

I can't watch because I actually want them to get wiped out. It's no fun watching cheering against my Leafs. Call me when Dubas is gone. No point until we get rid of the weak leadership.

 

[ryno23]

I do not 100% agree with you.
If you trade more than one of the core guys, will you get equal talent back, probably not, but that doesn't mean you are tearing it down.

Lets look at an example. Buffalo trades Eichel. Pre-injury Eichel was not as good as Matthews but before he got hurt many thought he was a top 10 player/talent What do they get back? A first round pick. A guy (Krebs) who was a first rounder the year before. A 2nd round pick. Oh, and a former first round pick who was entering the prime of his career, one of the best forecheckers in the league and someone who just scored in the mid 30's for goals (Tuch). Buffalo did NOT get back any one player even close to Eichel's talent on paper, but what they got back was probably better than what they gave away. Its not easy to make a trade like that, but if you are going to trade Matthews there is no reason you can't get even more than Eichel got. He is going to command a very good NHL player or 2, a first round pick (or multiple ones), and maybe a legit prospect on the verge of making the NHL also.

I guess what I am saying is if you traded Matthews and Marner, how much worse is this team if in return you get 1 or 2 legit top 4 NHL defenders, and 1 or 2 forwards who score 10+ goals less per year but may bring something else to the team, AND possibly some future picks/cap space? I think you can take that team and ride it into the playoffs for the next few years.

Ottawa, Detroit, and especially Buffalo are going to be coming hard the next year or two. BUT, even if you made those moves I mentioned above they are not better thant he Leafs...while Tampa and Boston are aging/retooling also. Even if you don't get 'equal value' back initially, you can get a very, VERY good haul for those guys and use it to retool. not rebuild, this team.

question is what team has those players and willing to part with them for Marner?

I would have done a deal with Calgary last offseason. Marner for Tkachuk but it would have been laughed at off these board. Fast forward 8 months and that is the type of player the leafs need in their top 6

 

[AvroArrow]

I haven't watched the Leafs for the last 2 years. First time in my life I haven't been watching 60-70 games every season.

I hate management and the team.

I can't watch because I actually want them to get wiped out. It's no fun watching cheering against my Leafs. Call me when Dubas is gone. No point until we get rid of the weak leadership.

It starts from the top, Shanahan needs to go. The entire organization needs to be stripped down and rebuilt, he tried his philosophy out of this new NHL, where it's all skill and 0 grit and it has failed miserably. Unless there is some miracle and these guys pull it off and win in 7, strip the entire thing. President/GM/Coach/Core, major overhaul.

 

[frog]

Mathews and Marner are two different players in the regular season and playoffs.

Regular season: Mathews franchise center, Marner elite 1st line winger
Playoffs: Mathews inconsistent 1st line center, Marner average 2nd line winger

It will never change they will always get us to the playoffs and make this team great during the regular season

 

[Drytoast]

Mathews and Marner are two different players in the regular season and playoffs.

Regular season: Mathews franchise center, Marner elite 1st line winger
Playoffs: Mathews inconsistent 1st line center, Marner average 2nd line winger

It will never change they will always get us to the playoffs and make this team great during the regular season

They said that about Yzerman in Detroit.

 

[yubbers]

It starts from the top, Shanahan needs to go. The entire organization needs to be stripped down and rebuilt, he tried his philosophy out of this new NHL, where it's all skill and 0 grit and it has failed miserably. Unless there is some miracle and these guys pull it off and win in 7, strip the entire thing. President/GM/Coach/Core, major overhaul.

We commit to Babcock for 7 years...have a plan of pain.......things are rolling.....

He then hires a rookie GM that had ZERO chance of getting along with old-school Babs...and let a rookie handle some of the most important contracts this franchise has seen in decades. When you could've had Lou do it for one more year.

This trash was so predictable. A rookie GM wasted our AM years learning on the job just like I said was gonna happen 5 years ago. It just never made any sense.

Honestly I just want Dubas gone so I can like my Leafs again. He keeps surviving failure though. lol

 

[Menzinger]

In terms of long-term thinking, especially if things don't go well on Wednesday and I'm foolishly still not going to 100% write things off until that actually happens - but something that does separate Matthews for the rest is the fact that he plays center. As disappointing as he has been in the postseason, we spent a decade plus Not that long ago looking for a 1st line center.

Doesn't mean you can't consider also trading him, but it's worth thinking about, especially if he's willing to sign long term.

The other thing that I think people need to brace for is just because they might want to break up the core Doesn't mean this team is going to be doing a through the draft rebuild. Leafs ownership has only allowed that to happen once in the last several decades, I don't think they're going to be very keen to do it again. Which means if they do blow it up, trading (parts of) the core for more win-now Players is probably what's going to happen

 

[AvroArrow]

We commit to Babcock for 7 years...have a plan of pain.......things are rolling.....

He then hires a rookie GM that had ZERO chance of getting along with old-school Babs...and let a rookie handle some of the most important contracts this franchise has seen in decades. When you could've had Lou do it for one more year.

This trash was so predictable. A rookie G wasted our AM years just like I said was gonna happen 5 years ago. It just never made any sense.

In hindsight was Babcock wrong about Marner ? I don't think so. Was he an asshole ? Yes, but he is smarter than every single one of us. He continually played Hyman on the top line and in clutch moments, we bitched about it. He called out Marner countless times, benched him and put him on the 4th line for not trying and his entitled attitude, we bitched about it.

Babcock was right, an asshole, but right.

 

[Divine]

At least wait until they lose 4 games...

You'd think Leafs fans would know that 3 games doesn't win a series after all these years

Can they beat Florida 4 times in a row? Absolutely. Will they? We shall see.

 

[Trapper]

Yzerman. Drafted in 84, his Detroit Red Wings didn't win anything until 97. And his teams were not short on natural talent. Did Detroit give up on Stevie?

Yzerman stayed but they didn’t just keep doing the same thing year after year.
Out went 50 goal scorer Ray Shepard, out went 3rd overall kick Primeau for power forward Shanahan, etc. Changes and retools were done. 5 coaches also changed.

 

[Drytoast]

Yzerman stayed but they didn’t just keep doing the same thing year after year.
Out went 50 goal scorer Ray Shepard, out went 3rd overall kick Primeau for power forward Shanahan, etc. Changes and retools were done. 5 coaches also changed.

Sure. But they kept the 5 if I recall. And we have consistently surrounded this core with an improved support system. But the narrative if I recall was that Yzerman and that core couldn't get it done in the playoffs.

It's absolutely comparable.