The Core Has To Go

[TonsofPuppies]

30 years?

Newcomer eh? J/K

60+ years and while never cheering against this unlikeable team ... it is an unlikeable team. Actually, I really only find a few players unlikeable, but they are the face of the team. Players like Kampf I'm fine with.

Coaching ... is he afraid of offending marner and Matthews?

This should have been obvious the moment Keefe had to "apologize" for a perfectly valid and milquetoast criticism, which was something along the lines of - "our star players didn't play like star players tonight". Lmao. It's been so obvious for years and years that the inmates run the asylum in Toronto. How other people don't see it is completely beyond me.

 

[DueDiligence]

Marner's "game" works fine, many players have generated east/west with creativity in the playoffs.

Marner himself has some serious question marks in the playoffs though

Marner's "game" is mostly finesse and unlike most other high skilled guys he lacks real grit. Finesse with no grit equals playoff failure.

 

[CDN24]

The way the big guns blamed crummy luck sounded eerily reminiscent of the Montreal series or the Columbus series or….

"A couple posts. Stuff's just not falling, but just can't get discouraged. Gotta keep pushing. Keep putting our work before everything else and just believe and have faith in each other that we’re going to break through," Matthews said. "It's do-or-die now."

And later: "Sometimes it goes in. Sometimes it doesn’t."

Added Marner: "I don’t think we can get frustrated. We just have to stick to our abilities. Once you get frustrated, things don’t go well for you at all.

"We’ve had our looks. Just hasn’t gone for us."

"But gotta forget about it quickly. Be pissed off. Now it’s do or die."
Questions about character and heart and cap structure and the futures of the general manager, the head coach, and the star-studded core will all be raised over the next 48 hours.

"I mean, it sucks," Marner said.

"But gotta forget about it quickly. Be pissed off. Now it’s do or die."

Maybe don't forget about, remember it feed off of it and be better. They don't take accountability to be be better, they forget about it and move on.....the problem is that is a not a recipe that allows you to move on in the playoffs. It's not just about production or lack thereof, it is about compete level doing what you have to do to win, take a hit to make a play etc.

They still think they are unlucky, they have not realized that they are not doing enough consistently enough.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

The team has been a disappointment to put it mildly. They just don’t have it and while Dubas has moved heaven and earth to keep them together and do Cap Gymnastics putting together version after version of this group they just are winners or the type of players who hate losing more than they like winning. They are regular season superstars and that just doesn’t cut it.

Both AM and Nylander are eligible for contract extensions this summer and it’s my belief that both should be traded because trying to do the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

Do we again tear it down to the studs or do we keep some players?
IMO Trade:
Am
Nylander
JT-but I don’t think anybody would take him unfortunately
Lafferty
Murray-even if it’s for a coke machine
Brodie

Honestly if we can get Bedard or Fantilli or a player like Byfield plus for AM I do it. I even look at trading him to Zona to get a boatload of picks. We are up against the cap and can’t build a proper team With the type of money AM and Nylander are likely looking for. The great thing is some other team likely is willing to pay a kings ransom for them. This is not an overreaction this core sucks.

Keep
Marner
Reilly
Samsonov
Woll
Liljegren
Timmins
Knies

Byfield 33 points in 99 career games..........

 

[mjd1001]

Here is the problem with getting rid of the core. You get rid of the core and you are back to non-playoff hockey and being out of playoff contention by Christmas. Some of the older folks went thru the 80's with no playoff hockey and look how dogshit the team was post-lockout. Prior to Matthews, they were out of the playoffs 10 out of 11 years.

yeah sucks there is no playoff success but do we really want to go back to garbage 82 painful regular season to watch.

We are Ovie'sCapital team good enough to make the playoffs every year but only once did it all come together. Do we want to hope for that or go back to Leafs not being in the playoffs year after year?

I won't want to go thru another rebuild cause when will it end this time?

I do not 100% agree with you.
If you trade more than one of the core guys, will you get equal talent back, probably not, but that doesn't mean you are tearing it down.

Lets look at an example. Buffalo trades Eichel. Pre-injury Eichel was not as good as Matthews but before he got hurt many thought he was a top 10 player/talent What do they get back? A first round pick. A guy (Krebs) who was a first rounder the year before. A 2nd round pick. Oh, and a former first round pick who was entering the prime of his career, one of the best forecheckers in the league and someone who just scored in the mid 30's for goals (Tuch). Buffalo did NOT get back any one player even close to Eichel's talent on paper, but what they got back was probably better than what they gave away. Its not easy to make a trade like that, but if you are going to trade Matthews there is no reason you can't get even more than Eichel got. He is going to command a very good NHL player or 2, a first round pick (or multiple ones), and maybe a legit prospect on the verge of making the NHL also.

I guess what I am saying is if you traded Matthews and Marner, how much worse is this team if in return you get 1 or 2 legit top 4 NHL defenders, and 1 or 2 forwards who score 10+ goals less per year but may bring something else to the team, AND possibly some future picks/cap space? I think you can take that team and ride it into the playoffs for the next few years.

Ottawa, Detroit, and especially Buffalo are going to be coming hard the next year or two. BUT, even if you made those moves I mentioned above they are not better thant he Leafs...while Tampa and Boston are aging/retooling also. Even if you don't get 'equal value' back initially, you can get a very, VERY good haul for those guys and use it to retool. not rebuild, this team.

 

[socko]

They should at least make Rielly captain, like he should have been the first time. Make Nylander assistant captain, just for all the crap he takes.

 

[Byron Bitz]

The team has been a disappointment to put it mildly. They just don’t have it and while Dubas has moved heaven and earth to keep them together and do Cap Gymnastics putting together version after version of this group they just are winners or the type of players who hate losing more than they like winning. They are regular season superstars and that just doesn’t cut it.

Both AM and Nylander are eligible for contract extensions this summer and it’s my belief that both should be traded because trying to do the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

Do we again tear it down to the studs or do we keep some players?
IMO Trade:
Am
Nylander
JT-but I don’t think anybody would take him unfortunately
Lafferty
Murray-even if it’s for a coke machine
Brodie

Honestly if we can get Bedard or Fantilli or a player like Byfield plus for AM I do it. I even look at trading him to Zona to get a boatload of picks. We are up against the cap and can’t build a proper team With the type of money AM and Nylander are likely looking for. The great thing is some other team likely is willing to pay a kings ransom for them. This is not an overreaction this core sucks.

Keep
Marner
Reilly
Samsonov
Woll
Liljegren
Timmins
Knies

Trading Matthews for low value because he only has one year left on his deal kind of makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[wingman75]

Leafs are a very talented team but they don't match that in the mental aspect. And that starts with the captain.

True. I don't find JT to be the problem here, his issue is that he cannot physically win one on one battles like he used to. I think his effort is there, but the thing that made him stand out doesn't happen anymore.

The other three, I mean we can see how Nylander can dominate in spurts. M&M are just disgusting.

 

[AvroArrow]

Assuming a round 2 loss

Maybe not the entire core, but a major shakeup is needed. I move Marner. Elite regular season player, biggest f***ing p***y on the planet when the playoffs come around. Guy is always terrified on the ice, scared of contact, scared to make a play, complete no show when it matters. Demands 11M, entitled attitude, after every game in his interviews this guy has no accountability. After the Habs series, he said I thought we played great and generated tons of chances. He's the guy I ship out.

The level of entitlement with him is beyond insane, and it kills me to say this. I was a fan of this kid since London, I have an autographed hat of his from a previous playoff series and a jersey, but it is what it is. He doesn't care about winning or competing and he never wants to be held accountable, demands 11M and doesn't show up.

Nylander, despite the blunder in game 2, has shown up to compete in almost every game. I would keep him, a serious conversation needs to be had with Matthews and see where his head is at. If we move on from Marner, very likely Auston wants out too. Can't let him walk, trade him if that's the case and rebuild.

Keefe needs to go, he gets outcoached every single game, his team is never prepared to start a game or period on time.

Imagine we kept Hyman and Kadri and moved Marner instead looool.

 

[mjd1001]

With all that said, I shop Matthews and Marner. I am confident 'close' to an equal return in terms of talent is out there. You may lose the trade on paper, but if its close, now is the time to pull the trigger.

 

[DueDiligence]

I can't be the only person that thinks the Leafs got much worse at the deadline, can I?

Slower
Less puck possession
Less depth offence

We spent all our assets and didn't bring in a top pairing Dman?

I disagree strongly with the "Dubas did all he can" takes.

Dubas rolled the dice on his core and at the start of the year brought in some suspect talent in goal; the oft injured Matt Murray and unproven Samsonov. Imagine if Dubas had traded one of the core and been able to get a top flight goaltender. The story would be different.

 

[AvroArrow]

Trading Matthews for low value because he only has one year left on his deal kind of makes me sick to my stomach.

Now imagine losing him for nothing in free agency, I've had it with his attitude and piss poor effort. He can f*** off if he doesn't wanna compete, respect his teammates or this fan base. That was the most disgusting effort I've seen from a star player maybe ever.

 

[Jojalu]

The great thing about sports is the ability to change the narrative.

They have one last shot to turn it around. Even fighting back to force a Game 7 will not be enough.

If they find a way to come back and win this series you could take a minute to reconsider.

Anything less and some tough choices need to be made.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Guy is always terrified on the ice, scared of contact, scared to make a play, complete no show when it matters. Demands 11M, entitled attitude, after every game in his interviews this guy has no accountability. After the Habs series, he said I thought we played great and generated tons of chances. He's the guy I ship out.

I would definitely look at this option
Have they been coddled? Yes I would say, especially MM. Keefe can't criticize his play or he basically has to apologize. Keeps playing both of them and giving them more minutes when playing like crap. GM backs them to the end of the earth.

You gotta wonder though, does AM really want to be here!?

 

[Mess]

There was no better example then yesterday's game to prove this core is rotten.

However management is not without blame because when you hand out big fat overinflated contracts to players that haven't earned it breeds complacency the opposite of a hunger to win at all costs to earn your contract.

It would be hard to imagine there will not be changes to the core of this team after yesterday's performance.

 

[Atomos2]

I still think Matthews is playing injured right now. And it'd be crazy to get rid of him.

While healthy, Marner and Nylander do NOT show up in playoffs. At all. Even during the regular season they're streaky as hell. Nylander is gonna want too much on his next contract, Mitch has to go though.

Tavares needs to be demoted to less important roles, he's getting older and it shows you can't be playing him maximum time on the ice anymore against 20 year old determined NHLers. I still want him to retire in the blue and white.

That's pretty much the norm. Can't remember the last time he was healthy.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Anyone know if Muzzin is completely done or is he coming back next year?

 

[BallardEra]

The great thing about sports is the ability to change the narrative.

They have one last shot to turn it around. Even fighting back to force a Game 7 will not be enough.

If they find a way to come back and win this series you could take a minute to reconsider.

Anything less and some tough choices need to be made.

True but after seeing that OT last night I see a team that's already thrown in the towel. 3 icings before the OT winner where Woll is hung out to dry and not a single Panthers player is hit.

Florida has won 6 straight and Leafs have lost 3 straight.

I saw no fight last night when it was do or die.

 

[MSteve]

Sadly, that game convinced me. The Core has to be broken up, the team actually played decent but the core 4 guys no shows. Just like Montreal, just like Columbus, just like etc.... we thought it was different this year. It is not. I'm fine with Dubas staying he only mistake is keeping Keefe this long but I really have no idea how to fix this team. Tavares can't go anywhere, Nylander is probably the best gamer of the group but inconsistent. One of M&M have to go I guess.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

That's pretty much the norm. Can't remember the last time he was healthy.

Matthews has played in 90% of all games available that's including 2 game suspension.

 

[mjd1001]

30 years?

Newcomer eh? J/K

60+ years and while never cheering against this unlikeable team ... it is an unlikeable team. Actually, I really only find a few players unlikeable, but they are the face of the team. Players like Kampf I'm fine with.

Coaching ... is he afraid of offending marner and Matthews?

There is something to what you say. I wonder if the playoff losing/lack of success is what leads to them not being likeable however.

Personally, I don't live in the GTA. I live in the USA, Niagara county but in the Lewiston/Youngstown area (geographically about half way betwen Buffalo and Toronto) But, I can see downtown Toronto across the lake on a clear day from here, I watch probably half of the Leafs games, and when I was a kid in the 80's and 90's I watched them so many times on HNIC I can't even remember how many games I have seen in my life.

So I'm kinda a Leafs fan. I don't live and die with their success or failures. Some times I like the team, sometimes I don't. I DO follow them all the time. But this current team is strange. I don't like them but I don't hate them. It is odd that for someone was good at Matthews, or Marner, I don't have any kind of connection or feeling about them. Nothing. Matthews may sign an extension and play his entire career on the Leafs, but i get a feeling, for myself at least, the he really is an 'outsider' of some sort.

Again, maybe all I am saying is simply a result of the team not having much success in the playoffs, but from my point of view I feel this team, this 'core' is about as disconnected from the city and fanbase as any other Leafs team I watched or followed.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Impossible to trade Tavares, you have to live with that for 2 years

Nylander & Marner would get you absolute hauls, the problem is keeping Matthews if you get rid of them. Pretty sure Matthews has a no trade clause in his last year so he holds the cards.

 

[CapspaceKiller]

I would love to trade Tavares for draft picks and prospects and -re-sign O'rielly to replace him, but that's just not possible.

When it comes to Nylander and Matthews, the team should make their decision after the extension talks begin. Neither one of these guys can enter next year as expiring contracts. Nylander's last negotiations were a disaster and I expect more of the same. He'll probably want to be overpaid by $2m/yr. I could see him being traded. Matthews will want huge money and will probably get it. If he doesn't re-sign this off-season it pretty much tells us he wants to go elsewhere though. No point in keeping him.

Marner's a decision for next summer.

 

[Jojalu]

True but after seeing that OT last night I see a team that's already thrown in the towel. 3 icings before the OT winner where Woll is hung out to dry and not a single Panthers player is hit.

Florida has won 6 straight and Leafs have lost 3 straight.

I saw no fight last night when it was do or die.

Can't argue with any of that. I am just clinging on to any shred of hope. Even though they have never given a reason to believe

 

[A1LeafNation]

Impossible to trade Tavares, you have to live with that for 2 years

Nylander & Marner would get you absolute hauls, the problem is keeping Matthews if you get rid of them. Pretty sure Matthews has a no trade clause in his last year so he holds the cards.

Sorry I'd like to see this core with a better 2nd line C and better coach and looks like we finally have a goalie before he got injured.

Colorado with Kadri, St Louis with O'Reilly. Tavares wasn't them with the Leafs.

You need to find a way to move on from Tavares. Period.