He put the work in to get to the NHL, that's fine. But he's not willing to put in the work to win a championship.
The Core Has To Go
- Thread starter Funk21
- Start date
-
Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Martin Skoula
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2017
- 12,523
- 17,639
I mean if his last 7 PPT presentations were absolute dogshit and hurt the company those fans are invested in, they’d probably have a point.
You don't know me or the work I put in, or for how long I've dedicated myself to training/nutrition so you can't really make that statement. I get it it's online forum so why wouldn't you think I'm just blowing smoke.
My main point is this, as someone who puts in the necessary work consistently on a daily basis, watching a professional athlete who demands what Marner did (11M) and seeing that his immediate response to being booted out of the playoffs was to book tee time, it shows me where his heads at. Yes he puts in the work to be a professional NHLer, but he's not putting in the work to become a champion. He's basically doing his 9-5 which is the regular season for him, he now has the off-season and like every off-season he's doing f*** all to improve.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
- 62,019
Oh yeah, but you wouldn't be scrutinized like that for having a life outside the workplace.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
- 62,019
Yeah, I think at a professional level, you just cut ties with the player you don't think is as invested as you need to achieve your organizational goals instead of worrying about the character of the person.
Martin Skoula
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2017
- 12,523
- 17,639
I mean if we’re talking about papparazi following you and telling everyone you were at home watching Netflix on the weekend instead of figuring out how to improve at the thing you keep messing up sure.
But if one of my employees had a massive ****-up at work on Friday and was voluntarily posting on social media about how excited he is to go golfing Saturday morning I’d certainly make note of it and start casually looking for someone else who can do his job.
Mitch can solve 99% of his PR problems by deleting social media completely. Go to the cottage or the golf course if you must, just do it quietly when you’re public enemy #1 for a week before everyone moves on. He does it to himself over and over, constant unforced errors both on and off the ice.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
- 62,019
Yeah, the analogies aren't perfect and you have a point. Marner is really as tone deaf as it gets, can't deny that. Defiant when he when he should be contrite, heartfelt when no one wants it.
57 Years No Cup
New and Improved Username!
- Nov 12, 2007
- 8,819
- 8,359
You assume Matthews cares about legacy or playing in a "hockey hotbed". IMO he's playing the game for the Hollywood Hockey Lifestyle and cares more about that, personal stats, and money than winning and wants a warm place to play where hockey is a fringe spot but where the lifestyle's still there.
Think Vegas, LA, Anaheim. I don't even think he wants to play for Arizona because there pressure to be a hometown hero would be immense.
Yes I would but the cap hits are way too off
You’d have to take Cal Peterson (only two years left) and maybe one other short term contract
What do you see in Byfield that we don’t? Kings board is torn but many ready to move on even though he’s 20 years old
100% this. We need guys who truly care about winning a cup. Not just saying it, but showing it through their actions and guys that are putting in that overtime work. He'll be a great NHLer and maybe even a HOFer when it's said and done, but he's not mentally and emotionally committed to doing everything it takes to win a cup.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
- 62,019
I would guess our Toronto intel on Byfield isn't as up to date with the issues the Kings fanbase has identified up close and personal. People who want Byfield probably think we're still talking about a Kopitar clone with more size.
What's the downside?
BLONG7
Registered User
Let's be frank, we don't know what you do, and you really don't know what they do to keep themselves fit.
The big thing to understand here, is the GROUP does not fit together the way fans expect them to..........changes need to be made. That's not on the players at this point, it's on Shanny, the almighty Shanny.
We all know, the leafs have had regular season success, and have sucked when it matters.
Think..............The Shanaplan...............maybe you can ask Shanny why he doesn't go to the gym as per se at his job.
Let's be frank, we don't know what you do, and you really don't know what they do to keep themselves fit.
The big thing to understand here, is the GROUP does not fit together the way fans expect them to..........changes need to be made. That's not on the players at this point, it's on Shanny, the almighty Shanny.
We all know, the leafs have had regular season success, and have sucked when it matters.
Think..............The Shanaplan...............maybe you can ask Shanny why he doesn't go to the gym as per se at his job.
Generally agree with the concensus here, there's been enough time but what I don't get is
I agree with many people that changes are needed but I don't get why so many people are deluding themselves into thinking we need to get bigger, tougher and more defensive. These are not the changes needed.
Florida and Tampa only needed to score 3 goals to beat us in the final 6 games of the year. Defense wasn't the issue.
Our goaltending was great outside of Game 1 vs Tampa. There were 2 maybe 3 soft goals allowed by Woll/Samsonov the entire playoffs.
We traded or got rid of almost every remotely skilled and fast player on our team this year and got bigger and more defensive players. ROR, McCabe, Accari who played with a broken nose, Schenn etc. Is more slow but tough guys the answer? Our best players vs Florida were Nylander, Lafferty, Rielly and Kampf who are all fast skaters who can cut through the neutral zone and enter the zone with possession.
We need in no particular order:
1. Someone who is really good at the net front to tip in shots and knock in rebounds. We haven't had a guy like this since JVR left. This is lower priority than the next two however....
2. Someone who is fast, can score on the rush and give the top six a dimension they lack when Nylander is not on the ice. A dangerous transition game. You know who are some of the NHL's best transition players? Carter Verhaghe, Sam Bennett, Anton Lundell and Nick Cousins. Are you guys seeing the connection here yet? Given we have Marner to trade - Ehlers, Kyle Connor, Timo Meier etc. should be our targets. It baffles me that anyone could watch that series, saw how slow we looked vs Florida's speed and think to themselves that more Jake McCabes are the answer.
3. Mobile defensemen who can defend vs the rush. It's a common myth that mobile defensemen are only good offensively. There are a lot that excel vs defending the rush - Hampus Lindholm, Devon Toews. Now many of you who saw the Boston series will rightly point out that Lindholm was terrible in the playoffs which is true. That's because vs Boston, Florida knew they were facing the best transition defense in the NHL and opted to dump it in and play the forecheck game. Vs Toronto where they knew they had a major speed advantage they played a a heavy transition game. Boston needed more players that could defend vs the cycle, Toronto needs the opposite. Florida beat both because they can pivot from from style of play to another and play it well. Toronto USED to be able to do that. The team as currently constructed is almost a pure dump and chase team and designed to beat other dump and chase teams.
Review this series:
Game 1 - Florida scored 2 goals off a sustained cycle, 1 on a 6v5 delayed penalty and 1 on a breakaway
Game 2 - Florida scored all three goals in transition
Game 3 - Florida scored 1 goal on the PP - in transition no less, 1 goal off a cycle and the winning goal was scored in transition. Reinhart dumped it in but there was no change of posession as it rang around the boards and to a Florida player. Brodie got beat by Reinhart.
Game 4 - Florida's lone goal came in transition. The Leafs locked down the neutral zone and they're naturally good at defending vs the cycle and limited Florida to under 25 shots until it became a 6v5 situation.
Game 5 - 1 PP goal, 2 goals in transition including the winning one.
This team is too slow and one dimensional offensively and defensively. We need more skill and speed and the ability to pivot from one style of play to another.
Every line should consist of two players who are good at one style of play and at least 1 who's good at another. The lines we had this year:
Bunting - Matthews - Nylander, two good cycle guys and 1 great transition guy. This is a great line.
Jarmkrok - Tavares - Marner, Marner given his skillset is surprisingly not great as a transition player but him and Tavares are great in the cycle. Jarmkrok is just kinda there, he's ideally suited to play 3rd line. This is where I'd trade Marner for someone like a Ehlers, Meier, Kyle Connor and then sign a third player to replace Jarmkrok.
Knies - O'Reilly - Accari - This was a playoff line and it was great. Knies is better suited as a cycle player but he's a fast skater and is great in open ice as well. This line is gonna need a new center next year unfortunately.
Lafferty - Kampf - Nylander - A pure transition line and incidentially the most dangerous vs Florida. Because it's thre 4th line there isn't as much need to balance out the styles especially since Nylander actually isn't bad as a cycle player either.
Defense pairs:
Rielly - Schenn - Makes perfect sense. Rielly is a great PMD, Schenn is a great defensive specialist. Thought he was way better than expected.
Brodie - McCabe - A disaster of a pairing vs Florida. Too slow, breakout ability whatsoever
Giordano - Liljegren - Gio was too slow cannot play 70+ games next year. This was a great line earlier in the season though, we should stick with it.
Holl - Third pairing dman who was too slow and often caught out of position vs Florida. Great vs the cycle though.
Note how many slow dmen we have. We need more mobile skaters on the back end combined with 1 or 2 more mobile skaters on the front end.
I agree with many people that changes are needed but I don't get why so many people are deluding themselves into thinking we need to get bigger, tougher and more defensive. These are not the changes needed.
Florida and Tampa only needed to score 3 goals to beat us in the final 6 games of the year. Defense wasn't the issue.
Our goaltending was great outside of Game 1 vs Tampa. There were 2 maybe 3 soft goals allowed by Woll/Samsonov the entire playoffs.
We traded or got rid of almost every remotely skilled and fast player on our team this year and got bigger and more defensive players. ROR, McCabe, Accari who played with a broken nose, Schenn etc. Is more slow but tough guys the answer? Our best players vs Florida were Nylander, Lafferty, Rielly and Kampf who are all fast skaters who can cut through the neutral zone and enter the zone with possession.
We need in no particular order:
1. Someone who is really good at the net front to tip in shots and knock in rebounds. We haven't had a guy like this since JVR left. This is lower priority than the next two however....
2. Someone who is fast, can score on the rush and give the top six a dimension they lack when Nylander is not on the ice. A dangerous transition game. You know who are some of the NHL's best transition players? Carter Verhaghe, Sam Bennett, Anton Lundell and Nick Cousins. Are you guys seeing the connection here yet? Given we have Marner to trade - Ehlers, Kyle Connor, Timo Meier etc. should be our targets. It baffles me that anyone could watch that series, saw how slow we looked vs Florida's speed and think to themselves that more Jake McCabes are the answer.
3. Mobile defensemen who can defend vs the rush. It's a common myth that mobile defensemen are only good offensively. There are a lot that excel vs defending the rush - Hampus Lindholm, Devon Toews. Now many of you who saw the Boston series will rightly point out that Lindholm was terrible in the playoffs which is true. That's because vs Boston, Florida knew they were facing the best transition defense in the NHL and opted to dump it in and play the forecheck game. Vs Toronto where they knew they had a major speed advantage they played a a heavy transition game. Boston needed more players that could defend vs the cycle, Toronto needs the opposite. Florida beat both because they can pivot from from style of play to another and play it well. Toronto USED to be able to do that. The team as currently constructed is almost a pure dump and chase team and designed to beat other dump and chase teams.
Review this series:
Game 1 - Florida scored 2 goals off a sustained cycle, 1 on a 6v5 delayed penalty and 1 on a breakaway
Game 2 - Florida scored all three goals in transition
Game 3 - Florida scored 1 goal on the PP - in transition no less, 1 goal off a cycle and the winning goal was scored in transition. Reinhart dumped it in but there was no change of posession as it rang around the boards and to a Florida player. Brodie got beat by Reinhart.
Game 4 - Florida's lone goal came in transition. The Leafs locked down the neutral zone and they're naturally good at defending vs the cycle and limited Florida to under 25 shots until it became a 6v5 situation.
Game 5 - 1 PP goal, 2 goals in transition including the winning one.
This team is too slow and one dimensional offensively and defensively. We need more skill and speed and the ability to pivot from one style of play to another.
Every line should consist of two players who are good at one style of play and at least 1 who's good at another. The lines we had this year:
Bunting - Matthews - Nylander, two good cycle guys and 1 great transition guy. This is a great line.
Jarmkrok - Tavares - Marner, Marner given his skillset is surprisingly not great as a transition player but him and Tavares are great in the cycle. Jarmkrok is just kinda there, he's ideally suited to play 3rd line. This is where I'd trade Marner for someone like a Ehlers, Meier, Kyle Connor and then sign a third player to replace Jarmkrok.
Knies - O'Reilly - Accari - This was a playoff line and it was great. Knies is better suited as a cycle player but he's a fast skater and is great in open ice as well. This line is gonna need a new center next year unfortunately.
Lafferty - Kampf - Nylander - A pure transition line and incidentially the most dangerous vs Florida. Because it's thre 4th line there isn't as much need to balance out the styles especially since Nylander actually isn't bad as a cycle player either.
Defense pairs:
Rielly - Schenn - Makes perfect sense. Rielly is a great PMD, Schenn is a great defensive specialist. Thought he was way better than expected.
Brodie - McCabe - A disaster of a pairing vs Florida. Too slow, breakout ability whatsoever
Giordano - Liljegren - Gio was too slow cannot play 70+ games next year. This was a great line earlier in the season though, we should stick with it.
Holl - Third pairing dman who was too slow and often caught out of position vs Florida. Great vs the cycle though.
Note how many slow dmen we have. We need more mobile skaters on the back end combined with 1 or 2 more mobile skaters on the front end.
Last edited:
BallardEra
Leafs&Caps Since 1982™
He gets to play with brother and buddy Sandin:
Breaking: Major announcement regarding Leafs winger William Nylander
Breaking: Major announcement regarding Leafs winger William Nylander
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
- 62,019
I've been thinking and saying this since the Montreal series but one of the conditions for continuing with Marner is you have to separate the Leafs cup pursuit with Marner's own personal come up story. The can be a key player but the success of the organization needs to be untangled from his own emotional, reputational investment.
Stamkos is a great example of a playoff underachiever whose team still managed to build around and win. He wasn't their "main character" when they did it. And same principle holds true for Marner.
Tampa basically won without Stamkos, he came to play like 1 game of the finals in their 1st cup run. We don't have a Kucherov/Hedman/Vasi/Point though, Marner has to be our 2nd best guy unless someone else steps up.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
- 62,019
I have to interrupt you right there. On a championship team, defense and goaltending can't just be passable. They need to be strengths in and of themselves so you can win multiple play styles vs multiple opponents.
A stronger defense also allows for your offense to be used differently and more aggressively, whether that's a better transition game or more freedom to counter punch without worrying that your D have no idea how to defend a 3 on 2 or a 2 on 1.
Goaltending needs to be a strength in and of itself because you know you can retreat into a shell game with confidence.
Strength begets strength. You can't go cheap on everything else because those weaknesses always short circuit the offense. Every year, the opposition beats us on a hot goalie, park the bus variation and some form of physical play. Why we consistently ignore these issues with the fantasy we'll outscore our opponents is beyond me.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
- 62,019
I wish Matthews and Marner had made a habit of representing their countries in international tournaments over the years. A great way to learn from other stars, sometimes high pressure situations and just get that feel for maybe winning a title somewhere.
A common mistake fans make is thinking that defense is just one skill and offense is another skill.
There are types of defenses and types of offenses. Good teams have personnel that can play both. We are a good team vs a cycle and a good cycle team but the transition D and Offense has been lacking. The way forward is to not just start doubling down on the style of players we already have in abundance but to get players that fill niches we don't have anymore.
We need guys that can break out of the zone m, we need guys that can defend other teams when they are cutting through the zone. That's the TLDR version.
Setting criteria that will help to decide whether I should invest time in this team next year. Won’t watch unless…
1. Keefe is gone
2. At least one of the Core 4 is moved (hopefully not WN).
3. At least one of Holl or Kerfoot is out the door (hopefully both).
Bonus: JT is stripped of the captaincy & it’s given to 44.
Lots of big decisions to make in a short window. Not holding my breath that the organization has the fortitude & will to do what’s needed. Hope I’m proven wrong.
1. Keefe is gone
2. At least one of the Core 4 is moved (hopefully not WN).
3. At least one of Holl or Kerfoot is out the door (hopefully both).
Bonus: JT is stripped of the captaincy & it’s given to 44.
Lots of big decisions to make in a short window. Not holding my breath that the organization has the fortitude & will to do what’s needed. Hope I’m proven wrong.
Im indifferent about Keefe...Ive seen enough coaches over the years to know that they all have their blindspots and all will be raked over the coals if they dont succeed. Keeping the core together just means more of the same and that is something I have no interest in and will not support. Not one of our big boys showed up( again) other than Nylander (again) . He would be the last guy I move out of the top 4. If we tinker around the edges again with this core we are doomed more than we already are.
I thought Kessel and his "is there anything better than night fishing" right after the leafs were eliminated was way more insulting. I mean I hated Marners game this last series but what is he supposed to do, just sit in a dark room til the fanbase tells him its ok to come out. If you have a terrible day or week at work do you stop having bbq's and drinking a few beers at the lake?
With one yr left on his deal nope...sign and trade or an agreement to sign long term with new team then maybe.
So just 2 more years and then we will be a winner with this core? We are all charlie brown and the leafs are Lucy promising that she wont pull the ball away but always does and yet we still believe her everytime.
Do you really believe Marner doesnt work on his game in the off season? I mean come on man. I get your hurt...i am too but sheesh.
