The Core Has To Go

[666]

It's not a "hate fest" to suggest a team that began with Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly, an excellent cap situation, a solid stable of draft picks (before being used/traded), basically such a positive situation - is "unlucky" to have won a single playoff round in seven years, It is reality.

The Leafs have lost series where they were favoured. They have lost series where they were underdogs. They have lost series where they even changed the rules (CBJ/COVID season). At some point, if you have tried everything else, you have to look at your core, both on the ice and in management.

I'd try changing the LW and coach first.

 

[Byfield]

LA - Vilardi, Clarke, 1st, 2nd… plus cap returns if needed

NYR - Miller, Lafreniere, 1st… plus cap returns if needed

Would you guys have interest in Byfield?

 

[Gary Nylund]

This fan base literally rages every single loss. Be it a meaningless regular season game or a second round loss. You guys are only happy when we are winning and only one team gets to win every season so guess what, you guys are always miserable. Now that I think about it, the only time that you guys weren't raging was when Babcock took us to last overall. Weird huh?

I'm not going to keep repeating myself but I will for you. The Covid flat cap kept us unbalanced and top heavy with 4 guys consuming almost half the cap but the plan was solid. Because of that, we have two top lines and no LW. Because of that and the fact that in the playoffs you play the same team 7 games in a row, the opposing coaches learn how to shutdown our 4 stars because they are basically short handed with our horrible LW like Hands, Bunting and Jarnkrok especially with Knies and Robertson down. The flat cap also hurts other areas. Keeping both ROR and JT at center was a mistake. If you want to fire Keefe that's cool, we can do better.

The future is bright. If we can sign Matthews and Nylander this offseason while the cap is still low that might help. If we start trading people we might lose some loyalty from the others. If Knies and Roberts are healthy and can play in the top 6 with entry contracts next season could be fun. In two years JT's $11M clears up, the cap should be rising and we can easily re-sign Marner and hopefully find a 2C and a real goaltender by then too. The past few years were rough but it's really no ones fault but the future is bright. I'm off to my tee time. Have a good weekend.

The love fest rages on.

 

[justashadowof]

Regardless of who is the GM, there is very little chance that any of O'Reilly, Bunting, Acciardi, Kerfoot, Kampf, Holl and Schenn are returning.

For O'Reilly, Kampf and Schenn I think it's a matter of choosing a better situation. For Bunting, he needs to take the best contract, this is his moment to set himself up for life. Kerfoot's and Holl's times with the team have passed their sell by date.

I don't think Samsonov will be qualified because he's far too uncertain in terms of performance and health to make a large financial investment into. I guess he could always re-sign after becoming a free agent and finding out his market value as an oft-injured erratic yet talented NHL goalie. Murray is obviously also gone-zo after having the rookie given two starts over him.

Do not be surprised that some of the reasonably priced carry over Dubas acquisitions (McCabe, Jarnkrok, Lafferty, Giordano) also don't survive if there is a new boss.

 

[GoonieFace]

The league was predicting the cap to go up. There were no economic indicators to suggest otherwise. TV deals were in place and new ones on the horizon. The cap had gone up 13 out of the 14 years in the cap era and the only year it didn't was due to the lock out. To suggest that it's managements fault for assuming it would go up as all teams did is just silly.

It’s a shame the cap only stalled for the Leafs and no one else

 

[Marmoset]

I'd try changing the LW and coach first.

I'm fine with changing the coach, although I don't think he is one of the main issues. If you're keeping the core, changing the coach is basically a requirement. This won't be the first coaching change with this core though (at least for most of them).

As for the better LW - perhaps if so much money was not tied up in the core, the Maple Leafs would be able to afford one. We can rotate through cheap LW options all day (and have), but in general you get what you pay for. Unless it's a young player on an ELC, but we don't exactly have many of those.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

4.) NYR. They will want changes. It is a huge team. Kane would probably sign there cheap. Colder, pressure, taxes… not sure if he would want that but
Chytil or Miller,Laff and 1st could work.

Rangers don't have the cap space for AM. Or the need with Zbad, Trochek, and Chytil locked up longterm down the middle.

 

[Lemontree]

Regardless of who is the GM, there is very little chance that any of O'Reilly, Bunting, Acciardi, Kerfoot, Kampf, Holl and Schenn are returning.

For O'Reilly, Kampf and Schenn I think it's a matter of choosing a better situation. For Bunting, he needs to take the best contract, this is his moment to set himself up for life. Kerfoot's and Holl's times with the team have passed their sell by date.

I don't think Samsonov will be qualified because he's far too uncertain in terms of performance and health to make a large financial investment into. I guess he could always re-sign after becoming a free agent and finding out his market value as an oft-injured erratic yet talented NHL goalie. Murray is obviously also gone-zo after having the rookie given two starts over him.

Do not be surprised that some of the reasonably priced carry over Dubas acquisitions (McCabe, Jarnkrok, Lafferty, Giordano) also don't survive if there is a new boss.

O'Reilly (due to the amount he will want), Kerfoot, Kampf, Holl should all walk in UFA. Schenn should be brought back (no longer than 2 years at no more than $1.5M per year).

If Samsonov files for arbitration (you would expect he would) than the amount awarded you probably need to walk away from and let him go UFA.

McCabe and Jarnkrok likely stay at least till next year TDL, Lafferty is a replacement level player who is available league wide every off-season. Giordano is unlikely to move but have his games dressed decrease or he retires to join the coaching/staff/player development side.

 

[666]

I'm fine with changing the coach, although I don't think he is one of the main issues. If you're keeping the core, changing the coach is basically a requirement. This won't be the first coaching change with this core though (at least for most of them).

As for the better LW - perhaps if so much money was not tied up in the core, the Maple Leafs would be able to afford one. We can rotate through cheap LW options all day (and have), but in general you get what you pay for. Unless it's a young player on an ELC, but we don't exactly have many of those.

Actually, we have Robertson and Knies. That's my hope for next season at least.

 

[666]

It’s a shame the cap only stalled for the Leafs and no one else

I explained that a few pages ago, read that. The timing of the cap stall was particularly unlucky for the Leafs. When JT was signed it was $81.5M now it's $82.5M while Crosby is in his 10th year only making $8.7M which can longer be done.

 

[Farsailor]

To be honest the reason we get to have high expectations on this team is because of the core. At least that has gotten me excited recent years.. Try and keep Matthews, Nylander and Rielly obviously. Tavares is the big waste of money. Marner, I would love it if he would gain some weight.

 

[sxvnert]

I would prefer a complete rebuild, ship the core out over the next few years for picks/prospects and start building the next core. Fire Dubas & Keefe.

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If we must roll it back (resign the core again) I could see a path forward:

Bertuzzi Matthews Marner
Knies <Center> Nylander - Centers = Speedy + Young
Tavares <Center> OReilly
Acciari Kampf Lafferty

Rielly Schenn
McCabe <#4D> Puck moving D
Brodie <#6D> Defensive D
Gio

Samsonov
Woll

Ship out/not resign: Holl, Liljegren, Timmins, Gustafsson, Kerfoot, Järnkrok, Bunting, Simmonds, Aston-Reese

 

[Dreakmur]

Would you guys have interest in Byfield?

Kind of, though he worries me

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I believe his no trade clause kicks in July 1 you can trade him at the draft to a team that is close to breaking out and into the playoff for a long time ie Buffalo, Detroit or to a team that is just one piece away ie Seattle, New Jersey, Rangers, Minnesota

Buffalo seems to have vastly improved after trading their best player in Eichel. Sometimes you can have an addition by subtraction thing happening. This whole, "we will lose any trade because we are giving the best player" trope needs to die. Boston did fine trading away Jumbo...there are many cases like that.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

The funny thing about the core 4?

If they all took a bit less 1-2 million per person, we could've had 5+ million dollars to get a great 2D or another center or a goalie or a winger with heart.

They all made it their mission to squeeze every last penny out of the organization, so yeah for that they should all be on the market.

That's the part that I think enrages fans more than anything. They assured us that they were worth the money they were asking for because they were the important ones...and they left nothing for surrounding talent. Just a few % points less on the cap hit and you have yourself some room....but no...they had to grab every last cent. Now...eat those cents...

Funnest fact to think about?

If Bergy and Krejci had retired before the season, the 1st round very well could've been Toronto/Florida, could you imagine us losing to 5 in the 1st? Lmfao well that could've been the case and it basically was.

In reality we should have lost to TB. We played 1 good game against them...I don't count the wins by flukey shots from every impossible angle as something you can count on and they couldn't do the same against FLA.

I think FLA gets WIPED out in 4 or 5 against a balanced, disciplined Carolina team...If FLA thinks its going to be easy against them like it was against us...they have some problems coming down the pipe.

 

[rocketman588]

That's the part that I think enrages fans more than anything. They assured us that they were worth the money they were asking for because they were the important ones...and they left nothing for surrounding talent. Just a few % points less on the cap hit and you have yourself some room....but no...they had to grab every last cent. Now...eat those cents...


In reality we should have lost to TB. We played 1 good game against them...I don't count the wins by flukey shots from every impossible angle as something you can count on and they couldn't do the same against FLA.

I think FLA gets WIPED out in 4 or 5 against a balanced, disciplined Carolina team...If FLA thinks its going to be easy against them like it was against us...they have some problems coming down the pipe.

Florida and Carolina will be interesting they both love to get it in deep and are good at pushing it out

I think Carolina would absolutely f***ing pump us on the forecheck

 

[Gary Nylund]

Your expectations are unrealistic. We did better this season than Boston and the last few years finalists. We're pretty unlucky with the opponents we keep getting.

Yeah not only were we unlucky to draw 8th seed Florida instead of Boston, don't forget we also unlucky to lose the first 3 games against Florida. If it wasn't for that piece of bad luck, maybe we'd have had a fighting chance. If we knew how to fight that is.

 

[Apex Predator]

How many more excuses are we going to us. It’s 7 years don’t tell me that’s not a big enough sample size. Every excuse in the books to defend the core 4. How about just get it done. Remember a few years ago when McKinnon was upset losing in the second round. That’s the fire people want to see out of the core. They don’t have it.

Some people are drivers while others are passengers. Our core 4 are passengers. Nothing wrong with that but you need at least one of your best players to be a driver and all we have are passengers.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yes the cap went up equally for everyone but it's the timing that hurt the Leafs. When the Leafs signed Matthews the cap was $81.5M and 5 years later it's $82.5M. Crosby signed 10 years ago when the cap was $64.3 and still only makes $8.7M for two more years. Contracts that long aren't allowed anymore but that sure turned out well for the Pens.

Just as we got everyone (except Reilly) signed, the cap froze. The timing is different for every team but the Leafs were very unlucky. We did probably save $1M on Rielly though.

This might actually work out for us in the future because if we were to sign Matthews this summer for the same percentage of the cap he'd only get a very small raise.

I was thinking more along the lines of available money for signing free agents like Kane, or for not being able to keep expiring players.

I wasn't thinking of you in particular, but there are a couple of posters here who seem to almost blame the league for deliberately sabotaging us.

At the same time, I think we wouldn't have had anywhere near the problems if not for the huge overpayment to Tavares, in terms of amount, length, and NTC.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

 

[andora]

Also posted in the leafs eliminated thread.. meant to post it in this one

Grew up in a leaf house, my dad a die hard born in 53

I went the way of blue for forever.. took the ribbing that goes with it

A couple years ago i found myself orgabically more neutral during leaf games... and less affected by losses

The series against washington i was excited.. i was excited with the mix of players.. i was excited watching kadri hit and komarov and martin patrol and matthews introduce himself

Over the next couple years this organically began to change.. i started not liking players. There are always players you dont care for or are frustrates by (dave ellett).. but this was different - not liking players because they arent likeable. This team's core group aroumd the last couple years is unlikeable.. everything about them in game to prep to production is aloof and high school pompous

Seriously this team has become painfully bland, disinteresting and unlikeable.. like it feels different when you watch a leaf game.. there is no emotion to it. I can watch leaf games and if you remove the 'blips - reilly beating crnak'..etc.. it is bland emotionless 9 to 5 routine crap

I dont want to hear about how pumped certain players get after goals and celebrations and awards.. watch the product and it is uninspiring bland crap

The core players are part of it, the coaching is definitely part of it, the management is part of it.. it is listless. If they arent listening to all options right now and look at anything and all being on the table right now they dont care.

Remember looking at players and saying.. we couldnt let him go no way.. or we cant trade him thats insane - i dont feel that attachment to any of them. Every single option needs to be on the table and discussed, not one player can be untouchable in this.. there needs to be better depth and emotion in our coaching and system.. and it appears there needs to be better depth and ideas from our management

It is sad.. because whoever said they lost this series when marner tried that stupid pass to matthews at the blueline i think in game 2 was right - that was the moment for me.. no word of a lie when i inside went f***.. they are doing it again.. no way. It is absolute garbage.. it is sad because i cheer for them actively with primary reasoning for my dad.. but sadly i bet on florida last night how pathetic is that

The people that are going to be here for next season and make the decisions really need to take a step back from the names on the jerseys, ALL the noise and alanlytic bullshit, ALL the reasons they talk about losing.. all the stats and leaders and 40 goals this and blocked shots that.. all of it and really try and figure out why these guys arent wanting to win for each other.. their play for years is what i said.. bland emotionless bullshit.. they play the same as they do in november - yes i understand a system and good team plays the same way all year but they turn it the f*** up come april - this team does not

Nobody can objectively look at the past few playoffs and see that next gear.. not at all - this team doea not dictate anythimg, they do not take moments they dont own games they dont make the other teams react.. none of it

That is what they need to figure out.. whoever that they is going to be, that is why this group is so unlikeable and that is why any sane person has to accept everything is on the table and needs to be discussed.

 

[stealth1]

View attachment 708118

That says all you need to know about this core. The sad part is so many want to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic instead of accepting a rebuild is necessary

 

[Larcos_Unal]

That says all you need to know about this core. The sad part is so many want to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic instead of accepting a rebuild is necessary

They've already changed:
GM
Head Coach
Asst Coaches
Goalies
Dmen
Bottom 6

What's next, changing the scouting staff before you realize the core is the problem??

 

[ToneDog]

View attachment 708118

Why does MT get it but our guys and GM do not ?? FFS Shanny forgot it. Guess it helps when your dad was such a player.

 

[stealth1]

They've already changed:
GM
Head Coach
Asst Coaches
Goalies
Dmen
Bottom 6

What's next, changing the scouting staff before you realize the core is the problem??

IMO why so many are against that is they don't want to start over again. Whats so good about making the playoffs if they you know they aren't winning anything. Doesn't matter how good Vegas says they are right @Gary Nylund or how good those analytics day right @Dekes For Days