The Atlantic Division

[Sypher04]

It's a widespread allergy to complete facts by the usual suspects.

Case in point:
- "we have the same points more or less!".
+5 points AND 3 games in hand isn't that close...
- "Matthews is first (or second or something like that) for goals in the past two seasons, therefore he is one of the absolute best players in the league!".
But when one looks at point, so goals AND assists, and in relation to games played (= ppg)... he is currently 35th in that.
- "look, X < =Leafs player> has more points <total points, that is> than Y <= Bruins player>".
Never mind that they always use this to compare someone who played 50+ games to someone that lost 15-20 games due to injury.

And so on..

They're masters of looking at little bits to peddle untrue "facts", instead of using the whole picture.

Every single fanbase has people who will twists facts to suit their narrative. Let's not act like this is somehow an exclusive thing to Leaf fans.

Also, you guys have arguably the poster boy of the whole league for points not telling the entire story in Patrice Bergeron, so it's kind of ironic that you'd make such an argument regarding Matthews' production.

I don't think there's really any question that Matthews is among the league's best. We can certainly debate exactly how high that is, but he's up there and still very young.

 

[Cotton]

Fixed your "nut-shell".

PS: still not a definition of "elite" from you. One that could be verified with data, that is...

I think everyone pretty much knows that Atlantic is basically 2 good teams in BOS & TB, one average team in Toronto and Rest are garbage....

And you quoted that with this;

I second that motion.

So how does average get to very good all the sudden when it suits you, or right, because you lie so much.


You can’t even verify the data in your own argument, and you want more? lol. GD you’re precious.

 

[Auston Marlander]

It's a really weird division this year. Arguably the two best teams in the league sit on top, and then the rest of the division is pretty weak.

Between this guy and BruindLVGA the only thing that could ever make the Leafs good is them folding. It's pretty hilarious these 2 are. Absolutely zero ability to act like adults and admit a team has become good.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Every single fanbase twists facts to suit their narrative. Let's not act like this is somehow an exclusive thing to Leaf fans.

Also, you guys have arguably the poster boy of the whole league for points not telling the entire story in Patrice Bergeron, so it's kind of ironic that you'd make such an argument regarding Matthews' production.

I don't think there's really any question that Matthews is among the league's best. We can certainly debate exactly how high that is, but he's up there and still very young.

Re bolded... At least that would be goals AND assists in relation to games played, you guys don't even take that, you only take goals.

 

[Sypher04]

Re bolded... At least that would be goals AND assists in relation to games played, you guys don't even take that, you only take goals.

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here...

Bergeron has 49 in 49 = 1.00ppg
Matthews has 44 in 47 = 0.94ppg

You can't exactly act like there is much of a difference here in production.

Also, again with more generalizations. There are few Leaf fans that would argue Matthew's merit as a top player on his goal scoring alone. Even if it's a crucial part of it.

 

[Cotton]

It's a widespread allergy to complete facts by the usual suspects.

Case in point:
- "we have the same points more or less!".
+5 points AND 3 games in hand isn't that close...
- "Matthews is first (or second or something like that) for goals in the past two seasons, therefore he is one of the absolute best players in the league!".
But when one looks at point, so goals AND assists, and in relation to games played (= ppg)... he is currently 35th in that.
- "look, X < =Leafs player> has more points <total points, that is> than Y <= Bruins player>".
Never mind that they always use this to compare someone who played 50+ games to someone that lost 15-20 games due to injury.

And so on..

They're masters of looking at little bits to peddle untrue "facts", instead of using the whole picture.

Mkay, not a single argument even close to anything you’ve represented took place in this thread. You made yourself look silly is all by making an argument based on data you aren’t aware of and reacted poorly when called out on it.

This thread isn’t a place for you to bash Leafs fans, so if that’s all you can offer maybe you should let the grown up discuss and you can wander off.

 

[Nizdizzle]

I hope LVGA never becomes a train conductor, because he is really, really good at derailing things.

 

[BruinLVGA]

And you quoted that with this;



1. So how does average get to very good all the sudden when it suits you, or right, because you lie so much.


You can’t even verify the date in your own argument, and you want more? lol. GD you’re precious.

1. It was obviously in relation to separation between these 3 teams. It's in that spirit that I did second that "motion". You knew this of course, didn't you.

Bottom line, Tampa and Boston are in a tier of their own, Toronto one tier below. There's no denying it.
The points % difference between Boston (704. 2nd best in the league) to Toronto (623. 7th best) is BIGGER than the difference between Toronto and Carolina (545. 20th).

"Verifying dates" is YOUR personal "requirement" and frankly completely irrelevant to the fact that the Bruins played more playoffs teams (in terms of total games AND in relation to total games played) and have a much better record than the Leafs in that exercise.
This is another case of the usual suspects trying to take a global picture of a situation and invalidating it with details. Dishonest as hell.

PS: still no parameter for what makes a team "elite" for you. Why? It's not as time consuming as going to look at the standings of each and every opponent the Bruins played on the day they played them, which is your mind boggling request.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here...

Bergeron has 49 in 49 = 1.00ppg
Matthews has 44 in 47 = 0.94ppg

You can't exactly act like there is much of a difference here in production.

Also, again with more generalizations. There are few Leaf fans that would argue Matthew's merit as a top player on his goal scoring alone. Even if it's a crucial part of it.

The usual argument by the usual suspects was to say Matthews was better than Bergeron because of Matthews' superior points production. Now that's not the case, only goals remains and even those look shaky (26 vs 25).

And please... That goals scoring thing is always the #1 thing brought up by Leafs fans. Always.

 

[Sypher04]

The usual argument by the usual suspects was to say Matthews was better than Bergeron because of Matthews' superior points production. Now that's not the case, only goals remains and even those look shaky (26 vs 25).

And please... That goals scoring thing is always the #1 thing brought up by Leafs fans. Always.

As a part of Matthews' value absolutely. But as the sole reason why we rate him so highly, hell no.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Mkay, not a single argument even close to anything you’ve represented took place in this thread. You made yourself look silly is all by making an argument based on data you aren’t aware of and reacted poorly when called out on it.

This thread isn’t a place for you to bash Leafs fans, so if that’s all you can offer maybe you should let the grown up discuss and you can wander off.

Not a "single argument... took place in this thread"? Do you mean that I dreamed of those saying that the Leafs and Bruins are basically at the same level because of the standings (without looking at games played)?
And the other examples are evidence of the wavelength that the usual suspects are on, when debating anything. It's a widespread policy to only use bits and pieces of stats by them/you, that isn't in doubt.

And about the last paragraph and the "Leafs bashing", here:

 

[BruinLVGA]

As a part of Matthews' value absolutely. But as the sole reason why we rate him so highly, hell no.

I agree.

 

[BayStreetBully]

+8 AND 2 games in hand... + 5 and AND 3 games in hand... =
a 118 points pace, a 115 points pace and a 102 points pace...
Hmmmmmmmmmm

I think you need to calm down. I had given Boston a compliment by putting them in the Big 3 echelon of the division and I said it was good they won last night. There’s no need to be passive aggressive.

 

[bionic]

The usual argument by the usual suspects was to say Matthews was better than Bergeron because of Matthews' superior points production. Now that's not the case, only goals remains and even those look shaky (26 vs 25).

And please... That goals scoring thing is always the #1 thing brought up by Leafs fans. Always.

We as Leaf fans in general have brought up many aspects of Matthews game that makes him one of the best centers in the league. Goal scoring and point production is just one of them. As a 20 year old his ability to drive his line and control a game is a talent not many young players have. Also his defense is amongst the best in the league. He is third in the league in goals against per 60 behind your guy, Bergeron

 

[BruinLVGA]

I think you need to calm down. I had given Boston a compliment by putting them in the Big 3 echelon of the division and I said it was good they won last night. There’s no need to be passive aggressive.

Numbers = passive aggressive.
Talking about supposed individual emotions =/= passive aggressive.

This a pot calling a glass of milk black.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Not a "single argument... took place in this thread"? Do you mean that I dreamed of those saying that the Leafs and Bruins are basically at the same level because of the standings (without looking at games played)?

They ARE at the same level, and that’s with Boston never losing a game. Boston at their very best is at the same level of points as Toronto. Imagine what happens when Boston stops winning every game.

Your attempt to separate “Boston=good” and “Toronto=not good” is flimsy at best and dishonest at worst. Better to tear down Ottawa or Buffalo instead if you want to prop up Boston.

 

[BruinLVGA]

They ARE at the same level, and that’s with Boston never losing a game. Boston at their very best is at the same level of points as Toronto. Imagine what happens when Boston stops winning every game.

Your attempt to separate “Boston=good” and “Toronto=not good” is flimsy at best and dishonest at worst. Better to tear down Ottawa or Buffalo instead if you want to prop up Boston.

They really aren't. The only thing that does agree with your statement is points IF one DISREGARDS games in hand. A 704 pts% to 623 (81 difference. And it even used to be over 100, until you went on a tear lately) is a difference bigger than from the 7th best pts% to the 20th best pts%.

You guys keep on saying wait till this or that happens, then you will be just like us! Food for thought.

Call it whatever you want. Tampa + Boston are a notch above Toronto and that's factual.

 

[BayStreetBully]

They really aren't. The only thing that does agree with your statement is points IF one DISREGARDS games in hand. A 704 pts% to 623 (81 difference. And it even used to be over 100, until you went on a tear lately) is a difference bigger than from the 7th best pts% to the 20th best pts%.

You guys keep on saying wait till this or that happens, then you will be just like us! Food for thought.

Call it whatever you want. Tampa + Boston are a notch above Toronto and that's factual.

As you magically give yourself extra points you haven’t even earned yet, it seems like you are assuming you will continue to win every game. The NHL actually doesn’t work that way. Teams do lose sometimes, and Boston is primed to lose too.

So yes, Boston at their very best is at the same level of points as Toronto at their regular. Isn’t it funny how Boston never loses and still hasn’t managed to separate themselves from Toronto.

And finally, all this hate can’t be good for you. I continue to compliment Boston. You can always choose to be gracious and do the same.

 

[joe dirte]

They really aren't. The only thing that does agree with your statement is points IF one DISREGARDS games in hand. A 704 pts% to 623 (81 difference. And it even used to be over 100, until you went on a tear lately) is a difference bigger than from the 7th best pts% to the 20th best pts%.

You guys keep on saying wait till this or that happens, then you will be just like us! Food for thought.

Call it whatever you want. Tampa + Boston are a notch above Toronto and that's factual.

i think the point is that is was only that high when the Bruins went on a tear AND the leafs were slumping. even an .081 difference can be wiped out reasonably fast.

 

[TheMule93]

Dang it my team sucks

 

[Cotton]

Not a "single argument... took place in this thread"? Do you mean that I dreamed of those saying that the Leafs and Bruins are basically at the same level because of the standings (without looking at games played)?
And the other examples are evidence of the wavelength that the usual suspects are on, when debating anything. It's a widespread policy to only use bits and pieces of stats by them/you, that isn't in doubt.

And about the last paragraph and the "Leafs bashing", here:

View attachment 97447

I said not a single argument took place related to anything you were complaining about in your post. Under “other examples” which was the post.

You must be joking, your single argument heavily relies on pace and lacks any context, as I’ve already explained pace is a what if argument for a what is question, it’s a weak argument at best. You say they’ve played more playoff teams and have a better record, well than show your work... post up the record vs playoff teams who were in playoff positions at the time the games occurred. Anything short of that, or any excuse not to provide it means you have no leg to stand on.

My argument is already posted up, and is there for anyone to look at, i’ve shown the difference in the schedules has afforded Boston a softer one up to that point, less B2B’s, less 3-in-4’s, easy road trips, less games vs Western conference and more games vs the bottom teams. I’ve shown in the OP that Boston has benefitted from Montreal, Ottawa, Buffalo and Detroit to a degree only two teams have exceeded; quiring 35% of their total points from playing only 4 teams. I’ve made an argument that Toronto is closer to Boston than you think (which was average) and all you’ve done is ignore it and bring up pace and an invented vs playoff teams record.

So if you insist on ignoring my arguments which I actually back up with statistics so you can wail on a f***ing drum to drown it out, then I’ll need something more concrete from you to take you seriously. And try and remember that the argument isn’t if Boston is the better team.

Btw, your own vs playoff teams argument is wrong, by your standards you calculate the W-L for the season vs teams currently holding playoff spots, even though that can change daily. Following that method their records are, as of today Toronto has played 28 vs playoff teams while Boston has played 24. But these aren’t the real numbers anyway, and i’m Not doing your work for you.

 

[BruinLVGA]

As you magically give yourself extra points you haven’t even earned yet, it seems like you are assuming you will continue to win every game. The NHL actually doesn’t work that way. Teams do lose sometimes, and Boston is primed to lose too.

So yes, Boston at their very best is at the same level of points as Toronto at their regular. Isn’t it funny how Boston never loses and still hasn’t managed to separate themselves from Toronto.

And finally, all this hate can’t be good for you. I continue to compliment Boston. You can always choose to be gracious and do the same.

Oh no, I am not giving us or anyone anything. I am saying that a team playing at 704% is performing much better than one at 623%. Does that make sense?

You, on the other hand, use a classic STRAWMAN to try to somehow negate the above simple concept.
Strawman right here: I never said that I expect the Bruins to "win all games". I never even said that I expect them to continue at the 811 (133 points pace) that they had for the past 37 games. I didn't even say that I expect them to continue on a 704 (115 points pace, our season performance so far). Even if we just match your 623 pace (a 11.5% regression over our numbers), we would still end the season +5 points over you...

 

[BayStreetBully]

Oh no, I am not giving us or anyone anything. I am saying that a team playing at 704% is performing much better than one at 623%. Does that make sense?

You, on the other hand, use a classic STRAWMAN to try to somehow negate the above simple concept.
Strawman right here: I never said that I expect the Bruins to "win all games". I never even said that I expect them to continue at the 811 (133 points pace) that they had for the past 37 games. I didn't even say that I expect them to continue on a 704 (115 points pace, our season performance so far). Even if we just match your 623 pace (a 11.5% regression over our numbers), we would still end the season +5 points over you...

5 points is same level.

 

[Cotton]

5 points is same level.

Yep, yep it is. To have a tier separation i’d personally expect something more like a +12 or more.

I think he gets confused often that the argument isn’t who’s better.

 

[1specter]

What's hilarious is that in the East, you have the top 3 Atlantic teams, then between them and Detroit is literally the entire Metro division from 1-8