The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXIII

[biturbo19]

Columbus isn't a team I watch much of at all. Not sure how he's been playing.

Thomas Fleischmann is a guy Gillis apparently targeted a couple years ago. Him or Versteeg would bring some skill. Maybe Florida goes full tank mode?

Quite honestly, Brassard has looked...largely disinterested to me this year. A lot like Nash just before his tenure there ended. He's been shuffled all around with an assortment of linemates who can't finish...something of a microcosm of what's been going on with Columbus this year. They have ~9 second line 'complementary' type forwards, and zero first liners or quality finishers. To me, he looks like a prime 'change of scenery' candidate. Like a guy who wants out. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if Columbus felt the same, with new management coming in...finish the purge of the 'old regime' and really start the rebuild from a blank canvas.

There are still flashes of his creativity there, but also stretches where he kind of disappears. Maybe not the sort of thing Gillis is after, but definitely the sort of thing i wish he was after.

Grenier.

For every Grenier that booms, 50 bust.

And now everyone whines about the pick.

Grenier was and old guy with no track record of high skill and production at a high level of competition. He had a breakout year while being older and Gillis bought high on it because he had great size.

Really wouldn't call that an example of 'targeting skill'. More like a desperate stab at a home-run 'power forward'.

I hated the pick when it was made.

I think that was a pretty common reaction at the time of the pick. A whole lot of 'who the...?' and 'why on earth?'.

You can count me in the camp of disliking the pick when it was made. With a hint of hoping Gillis and co. knew something i didn't. But it looks like they didn't...

 

[Alexistheman]

Leafs fans reports are that his defensive play has been fine this year.

Wasn't a comment based on Nazem Kadri, just a general comment on all one-way offensive forwards.

Moreover, while I dont disagree with the need for a player like this, especially with the surplus of defensive forwards we could pair said player with, this is not how AV rolls.

To the Hodgson comment, he was sheltered, didn't get big minutes, and was put with 3rd line players. As to where he is now playing on Buffalo's top line, scoring. So maybe yes we had him, unfortunately our coach doesnt feel a player that is one dimensional can play any amount of significant minutes.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

To the Hodgson comment, he was sheltered, didn't get big minutes, and was put with 3rd line players. As to where he is now playing on Buffalo's top line, scoring. So maybe yes we had him, unfortunately our coach doesnt feel a player that is one dimensional can play any amount of significant minutes.

That's because he was a centre on a team with 2 of the top centremen in the Western conference. AV will play offensive players if they produce. He just hasn't had many of these types at his disposal over the last few years, save the Sedins.

 

[604]

To the Hodgson comment, he was sheltered, didn't get big minutes, and was put with 3rd line players. As to where he is now playing on Buffalo's top line, scoring. So maybe yes we had him, unfortunately our coach doesnt feel a player that is one dimensional can play any amount of significant minutes.

I think Hodgson's play up to this point is actually evidence that AV was right.

Hodgson has been on for 19 goals against 5 on 5, more than any other player in the league.

For reference. No Canucks centre has been on for more than 4 any no Canucks forward has been on for more than 7 goals against.

I know Hodgson can and will develop but the strikes against him are his size in combination with his speed. This will likely cause problems for him defensively as a centre for a long time and will need to be improved.

 

[Bleach Clean]

That's because he was a centre on a team with 2 of the top centremen in the Western conference. AV will play offensive players if they produce. He just hasn't had many of these types at his disposal over the last few years, save the Sedins.

This is pure spin.


The constant call last year was for Hodgson to play more, yet he didn't get the time. AV could have easily given him more time by cutting more of Kesler's offensive minutes, since he wasn't converting, but he didn't. AV recognized that Hodgson had to be used sparingly, due to his own ability. Not because of the C's in front of him.


AV trusts the Sedins in all zones. He never trusted Hodgson.

 

[Proto]

This is pure spin.


The constant call last year was for Hodgson to play more, yet he didn't get the time. AV could have easily given him more time by cutting more of Kesler's offensive minutes, since he wasn't converting, but he didn't. AV recognized that Hodgson had to be used sparingly, due to his own ability. Not because of the C's in front of him.


AV trusts the Sedins in all zones. He never trusted Hodgson.

Kesler wasn't getting offensive minutes IIRC. He was playing difficult 5 on 5 minutes because Malhotra and Hodgson couldn't carry the load.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

This is pure spin.


The constant call last year was for Hodgson to play more, yet he didn't get the time. AV could have easily given him more time by cutting more of Kesler's offensive minutes, since he wasn't converting, but he didn't. AV recognized that Hodgson had to be used sparingly, due to his own ability. Not because of the C's in front of him.


AV trusts the Sedins in all zones. He never trusted Hodgson.

He played 3rd line minutes. Similar to what Schroeder will see this season. And this season Schroeder has less centre depth to contend with. Are you saying the Canucks excellent centre depth didn't play into how much icetime he received? Depth charts ALWAYS factor into roles and icetime. When you have Manny Malhotra, Ryan Kesler and Henrik Sedin on the roster you don't play your rookie centre against the opposition's top players.

Samuel Pahlsson is a seasoned veteran that stepped in and played about as many minutes as Hodgson did. It's a product of the teams depth up the middle.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Kesler wasn't getting offensive minutes IIRC. He was playing difficult 5 on 5 minutes because Malhotra and Hodgson couldn't carry the load.

I realize, but he did take shifts in the Ozone. Thus, there was an option to restrict Kesler further. Not that AV would have. Hodgson was pushing 80% Ozone starts at one point anyways. Push it to 90% plus. Why not? You can't use him anywhere else...


Or, crazy as it seems, give him more neutral zone and DZone starts. Why didn't that happen? If he was that important, I'm sure AV would have found a way. Or maybe he wasn't important at all.

He played 3rd line minutes. Similar to what Schroeder will see this season. And this season Schroeder has less centre depth to contend with. Are you saying the Canucks excellent centre depth didn't play into how much icetime he received? Depth charts ALWAYS factor into roles and icetime. When you have Manny Malhotra, Ryan Kesler and Henrik Sedin on the roster you don't play your rookie centre against the opposition's top players.

Samuel Pahlsson is a seasoned veteran that stepped in and played about as many minutes as Hodgson did. It's a product of the teams depth up the middle.

Malhotra wasn't preventing anything at that point, coming off injury and playing on the 4th line (as Proto has alluded to).


Hodgson wasn't getting played anywhere else because he wasn't trusted to be play anywhere else. Already, Schroeder has faced tougher competition. The difference between the two rookies being defensive awareness and effectiveness.

 

[Alexistheman]

I think Hodgson's play up to this point is actually evidence that AV was right.

Hodgson has been on for 19 goals against 5 on 5, more than any other player in the league.

For reference. No Canucks centre has been on for more than 4 any no Canucks forward has been on for more than 7 goals against.

I know Hodgson can and will develop but the strikes against him are his size in combination with his speed. This will likely cause problems for him defensively as a centre for a long time and will need to be improved.

This feeds into my point, that AV will not play a forward who is restricted defensively, in the top 6, it doesnt help that Hodgson was a center on a team with a tonne of center depth, however, even when Hodgson was the 2nd best center on the team (Kesler injured), he was not given free reign to open up his offensive side.

Like i said prior, I dont disagree with the need for a player like this, I just dont believe he will get significant playing time that will make him effective for us due to AV'sgame plan.

 

[Alan Jackson]

Vigneault didn't like Hodgson. Period.

There's no reason why he couldn't have played more meaningful minutes last season. The Canucks had all but clinched the division by the end of January. Kesler was hobbled. Even if the coaching staff didn't entirely trust Hodgson defensively, that would have been a good time to play Hodgson more, and help the kid develop his game.

A player isn't going to develop or improve defensively by sitting on the bench or starting exclusively in the offensive zone.

Hodgson was producing at least as much offence as Kesler, in fewer minutes, with worse linemates. You're telling me the team couldn't afford to play him a few more minutes, giving an injured Kesler a bit of a break down the stretch?

Vigneault didn't play Hodgson because he didn't want to. The writing was on the wall years ago.

To the larger point, I think a gifted offensive player will have trouble playing for this coach if that player struggles defensively. Players can learn to be better defensively, but only if they're given the chance to do so.

 

[arsmaster*]

Is there a way to block out posts that mention Hodgson....or at least have his name be **** out like a swear word.

So, so tired of reading about this kid.


Think ******* even gets a stick on Bolland on that SH breakaway the other night? I dont, I think he stops skating at his blueline.

 

[Tiranis]

The notion that Hodgson somehow deserved more ice-time is amusing. This is a kid that had 1 goal and 2 assists in the 13 games leading up to the trade deadline despite being given heavy offensive zone starts and easy minutes. He was given the ice-time he could handle.

 

[Alflives*]

Wasn't a comment based on Nazem Kadri, just a general comment on all one-way offensive forwards.

Moreover, while I dont disagree with the need for a player like this, especially with the surplus of defensive forwards we could pair said player with, this is not how AV rolls.

To the Hodgson comment, he was sheltered, didn't get big minutes, and was put with 3rd line players. As to where he is now playing on Buffalo's top line, scoring. So maybe yes we had him, unfortunately our coach doesnt feel a player that is one dimensional can play any amount of significant minutes.

What? Daniel Sedin is a multi-dimensional player? What else does he offer, if he is not scoring?

 

[PRNuck]

What? Daniel Sedin is a multi-dimensional player? What else does he offer, if he is not scoring?

Punching bag?

 

[Alan Jackson]

The notion that Hodgson somehow deserved more ice-time is amusing. This is a kid that had 1 goal and 2 points in the 13 games leading up to the trade deadline despite being given heavy offensive zone starts and easy minutes. He was given the ice-time he could handle.

I didn't say he deserved it, but it might have kept Kesler and Henrik a little fresher, especially when you have an unassailable lead over the second best team in the division and especially considering how badly Kesler was hurt.

Vigneault is a stubborn coach.

EDIT: And not that it matters, but he had 2 goals and 3 points in that very specific timeframe you mentioned, most nights around 10-12 minutes, and never once more than 15.

 

[arsmaster*]

I didn't say he deserved it, but it might have kept Kesler and Henrik a little fresher, especially when you have an unassailable lead over the second best team in the division and especially considering how badly Kesler was hurt.

Vigneault is a stubborn coach.

And Hod*** was getting overrun playing the Helm's and Abdelkader's without producing, count me in the group that was glad he didn't get the chance to go against the Datsyuk and Zetterberg's.

Done talking about this kid who didn't want to be here.

 

[Tiranis]

I didn't say he deserved it, but it might have kept Kesler and Henrik a little fresher, especially when you have an unassailable lead over the second best team in the division and especially considering how badly Kesler was hurt.

Vigneault is a stubborn coach.

Who cares? He didn't even last half a season in that role before he started complaining. In fact, he started complaining after he was given 4th line minutes and at times benched on our playoff run the year prior.

By contrast, Jordan Schroeder has spent 3 years in the minors playing 2nd line centre and 2nd unit PP, greatly jeopardizing his chances of making the NHL. This year he outplayed Ebbett by a country mile and still didn't get that ice-time. He was given a collection of such crap linemates that anything Hodgson had at any point would look like gold in comparison. Yet despite that we haven't heard a single squeak out of Schroeder during all this time. Not a single report of attitude issues. Not a single report of not working hard. Not a single report of being frustrated.

The first thing Hodgson mentioned after he scored the goal against Boston is how it would be nice to get more ice-time.

 

[Alan Jackson]

Who cares? He didn't even last half a season in that role before he started complaining.

Link?

 

[Tiranis]

Link?

Google it. This is a year old debate. If you didn't bother to keep up with the sources, I'm not going to spend the time digging them up for you.

Did you forget his agents' tirade on twitter? Hodgson's own comments about wanting more ice-time? Mike Gillis saying that he had to deal with Hodgson's issues every week while he was here?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Vigneault didn't like Hodgson. Period.

There's no reason why he couldn't have played more meaningful minutes last season. The Canucks had all but clinched the division by the end of January. Kesler was hobbled. Even if the coaching staff didn't entirely trust Hodgson defensively, that would have been a good time to play Hodgson more, and help the kid develop his game.

A player isn't going to develop or improve defensively by sitting on the bench or starting exclusively in the offensive zone.

Hodgson was producing at least as much offence as Kesler, in fewer minutes, with worse linemates. You're telling me the team couldn't afford to play him a few more minutes, giving an injured Kesler a bit of a break down the stretch?

Vigneault didn't play Hodgson because he didn't want to. The writing was on the wall years ago.

To the larger point, I think a gifted offensive player will have trouble playing for this coach if that player struggles defensively. Players can learn to be better defensively, but only if they're given the chance to do so.

What is Hodgson going to develop if he doesn't care about playing defense? More offense?


The chance to do so? He had a great chance in BUF, why didn't he try to develop his Dzone game there? CoHo has been on for the most goals against of any forward in the league. I think it was 20. That's hideously bad even with bad luck and skewed save percentages. Bottom of the league bad.


AV didn't play Hodgson because he got torn to shreds defensively. Not just middling, but so much so that he had to shelter him with heavy Ozone starts to help him play his game, not the game the Canucks wanted him to play. It put that much more on Kesler's plate defensively. Actually, if you truly wanted to take the burden off of Kesler, it could have easily been done had Hodgson taken to playing defense seriously. Then, you could start replacing Kesler higher minutes with less sheltered minutes for Hodgson, but CoHo didn't want to do it.





You gotta earn your time here. At least have a middling defensive game so the coach doesn't have to play jenga with his line-up to protect you. It's got nothing to do with the division, or the PT, or anything else. It's on the player to show that he can be trusted all over the ice.

 

[arsmaster*]

Link?

Listen to him discuss/beat around the ice time issue in his rookie of the month interview.

It's on: http://video.canucks.nhl.com/videocenter/

For some reason I can't link the individual video - it's February 2, 2012 if you'd like to refresh your memory.

Here is the paraphrase:

Interviewer: Is it because you've gotten more ice time, that has lead to your boost in production

Cody: It's more time on the i...i mean more time at this level. You could see right then, ice-time was an issue.

wetcoaster touched on it that day I recall, but nobody wanted to believe him at the time.

first link on google: http://www.google.ca/#q=cody+hodgso...73,d.cGE&fp=7e2c26b3e9916e78&biw=1366&bih=667

 

[Alan Jackson]

Google it. This is a year old debate. If you didn't bother keep up with the sources, I'm not going to spend the time digging them up for you.

It's generally accepted that there was a fractured relationship between the player and the club, and we might have differing opinions on where that fracture started. (Hint: It might have been when the coach called the player a faker and liar.)

I've not once seen a quote attributed to Hodson complaining about his icetime. I've seen hints and speculation that his people behind the scenes might have been doing that. Fair enough. His agent seems like a bit of knobhead, for sure. I know this forum was full of people complaining about his ice-time.

In some situations, a player that wanted more responsibility might be said to have leadership qualities and character, which is all we heard about this player until AV got a hold of him. I suppose everybody in the hockey world, including Gillis, was dead wrong about that.

For the record, I like Kassian, and I think he should be a great player for the Canucks. That doesn't mean I can't be critical of the way this coach treats certain players, especially when I could see it coming a mile away.

OK, I'm done. Sorry, we can move on.

 

[Jay Cee]

Not CoHo AGAIN. I have no interest in talking about that but to say that when you have two elite centres on your team and a young centre is coming up you have two choices:

1) Trade one of the established centres because you think the young player will be better soon than either.
2) Trade the young player for a need elsewhere.

Add in said player being a prima dona and there ya go.

I'm really happy with the decision we made- Kassian is gonna be some kind of player.

 

[Alan Jackson]

What is Hodgson going to develop if he doesn't care about playing defense? More offense?


The chance to do so? He had a great chance in BUF, why didn't he try to develop his Dzone game there? CoHo has been on for the most goals against of any forward in the league. I think it was 20. That's hideously bad even with bad luck and skewed save percentages. Bottom of the league bad.

Indeed. Look at how many Goals For he's been on for. Do you think it's unusual for a young, offensively giften player to struggle defensively? Is that unique to this player?

He's also playing for a team that is brutal defensively, with struggling goaltending. For all this talk about advanced stats, you're basically just arguing +/-, which is a number that is only mildly useful when judging a player's performance.

 

[arsmaster*]

Indeed. Look at how many Goals For he's been on for. Do you think it's unusual for a young, offensively giften player to struggle defensively? Is that unique to this player?

He's also playing for a team that is brutal defensively, with struggling goaltending. For all this talk about advanced stats, you're basically just arguing +/-, which is a number that is only mildly useful when judging a player's performance.

Center Ice package was free for January, a majority of us specifically watched Buffalo games to see what we traded away.

He's on the wrong side of the puck all the time, even when he's in the right spots he doesn't try, and he cheats the d-zone for offense.

It's the eye test that he isn't passing either. When he isn't on a line with Vanek and Pominville, he's even weak in the offensive zone.

Anywho, we both said we were done a few posts back, I am now done.