The 2022 Hockey Hall Of Fame

[BlueBull]

Thank god they made up for the mistake of not having Alfredsson in the hall already.

This class is solid.

 

[The Panther]

Okay, so Alfredsson and Luongo are fine choices. Both deserving for sure, and Alfredsson waited longer than he should have. Anyway, they're in, it's all good.

The Sedins....?? To me, they're borderline Hall of Famers, so their getting in ahead of Zetterberg (or even Turgeon, as someone mentioned) is downright wrong. At least with Turgeon, you can say, 'He bounced around from team to team and wasn't associated with one franchise', and that's true, so the Sedins do have that going for them. But so does Zetterberg, who was overall the better individual performer -- esp. i big games -- than either Sedin was.

I would have been happier if the Sedins had waited a couple more years... or a few more years.

 

[Neutrinos]

Adjusted for era:
Lecavalier = 471 goals, 1051 points in 1212 games (.87 PPG)
Damphousse = 422 goals, 1193 points in 1378 games (.87 PPG)
Daniel = 442 goals, 1154 points in 1306 games (.88 PPG)
Henrik = 272 goals, 1181 points in 1330 games (.89 PPG)
Weight = 295 goals, 1099 points in 1238 games .89 PPG)
Roenick = 514 goals, 1228 points in 1363 games (.90 PPG)
Brad Richards = 337 goals, 1032 points in 1126 games (.92 PPG)
Elias = 464 goals, 1144 points in 1240 games (.92 PPG)
Tkachuk = 584 goals, 1150 points in 1201 games (.96 PPG)
Fleury = 468 goals, 1111 points in 1084 games (1.02 PPG)
Turgeon = 517 goals, 1315 points in 1294 games (1.02 PPG)
Mogilny = 480 goals, 1054 points in 990 games (1.07 PPG)

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

What exactly is so special about the Sedins that make them deserve first ballot inclusion? Never won a Cup. Numbers are Hall of Very Good worthy. Yes, they each had an MVP season peak but also had a mediocre start to their careers and slightly mediocre finish.

Turgeon not being let in continues to be a travesty. If it's because he played soft, then well, the Sedin inclusion should end that talking point.

The thing about the Sedins is that they're more than just counting numbers and awards (and they should be in on that basis anyway).

They gave the sport something it had never seen before and likely never will again. They changed the game, and some of the stuff they pioneered - especially the slap-pass - is now commonplace. They took the cycle to an art form. They were unique and special and even if their careers don't look that different on paper from Patrik Elias, they were more than that and meant more than that to the sport.

Location: Vancouver, BC

 

[MS]

What exactly is so special about the Sedins that make them deserve first ballot inclusion? Never won a Cup. Numbers are Hall of Very Good worthy. Yes, they each had an MVP season peak but also had a mediocre start to their careers and slightly mediocre finish.

Turgeon not being let in continues to be a travesty. If it's because he played soft, then well, the Sedin inclusion should end that talking point.


Location: Vancouver, BC

It isn't the Hall of Statistics. It isn't just distilling down to career points/game.

I'm about as big of a Turgeon supporter as there is, but there is no f***ing way he belongs in there before the Sedins.

Being the most important players in the history of a city and a franchise matters.
Being hugely important to your country internationally matters.
Being unique and special and having star quality matters. It matters that people will still talk about the Sedins in 100 years and Turgeon will be mostly forgotten.
Doing things that change how the game is played matters.
Being amongst the biggest class acts in the history of the sport matters.

The Sedins were all of these things and Turgeon was none of them. Oh, and the Sedins won scoring titles and MVPs and Turgeon never came close (outside of '99 if he could have stayed healthy, but he didn't).

 

[Neutrinos]

The reason(s) behind Curtis Joseph's disrespectful omission remain a mystery to me

He was 4th all time in wins at the time of his retirement

He lead the league in Goalie Point Shares for 3 straight seasons beginning in '92

He's 9th all time in Goalie Point Shares, ahead of Belfour and Hasek. Lundqvist at #8 is the only goalie ahead of Joseph who isn't in the Hall of Fame

He has the same career SV% as Belfour

And he should've been the unanimous winner for the Vezina and 1st Team All-Star in '93 after leading the league in the following categories:
Shots Against
Saves
Save Percentage
Goals Saved Above Average
Goals Allowed Adjusted
Goalie Point Shares

His 16.2 Point Shares that season were 2nd to only Lemieux (16.8). Mogilny was a distant 3rd with 13.4

And his GSAA of 57 in '93 is the 5th highest single season mark in league history


So, on career value alone, Joseph should already have been inducted, and his peak is criminally underrated

His accomplishments in goal are more noteworthy and impressive than those of many of the skaters who have been inducted in the last couple of decades

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm not a big fan of the Sedins being in...but they're "famous" and it's the Hall of Fame...so I guess they were close and they have an angle...

It's like the "good guy" bonus that will, say, get Marc-Andre Fleury in the HOF before Tom Barrasso...(though, rightfully so, Fleury is/was better)...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Several have suggested the feelgood story of the twins getting in together contributed to their "both" being inducted. I personally don't believe either Sedin makes it first ballot with the same exact career, minus a twin brother.

the pt isn’t that they’re twins. the pt is that they had bonkers chemistry (yes due to being twins) the likes of which will probably never be seen again and they made a career of memorable plays that no one else could make.

so the question isn’t would either sedin be in the hall if he didn’t have a brother, anymore than you would ask, would stockton and malone be hall of famers if they’d been drafted by different teams. hell, anymore than would zetterberg and datsyuk be hall of famers if they’d been drafted and developed by phoenix and florida.

 

[Voight]

Thank god they made up for the mistake of not having Alfredsson in the hall already.

This class is solid.

I personally did not see Alfredsson not being in the hall as some travesty.

 

[Mohar Ikram]

Alfie finally get the call. He deserved it. Should be in his 3rd-4th ballot the most. Not a decade.

Sedins' are HOF worthy but first ballot? Seems kinda debatable. Stats are okayish. Individual achievements are great (both won art rosses, 1 won Hart, 1 won Ted Lindsay). But moments? Almost forgettable.

Luongo saving grace in 2010 booked him the place. Replacing the great Brodeur, saving that Pavelski shots. Truthfully deserved (although he was choking on the next year SCF).

 

[trentmccleary]

Missed games are a more tangible issue with Turgeon's candidacy than Piestany.
Between 24yo-33yo, he played 69 or less games in 7 of 10 seasons. That was his prime.
He only had two T10 points finishes, but had five T10 PPG finishes.
The committee counts trophies and cups very heavily. It's hard to win those things with injury plagued seasons.
The virtual iron men like Iginla, St. Louis and the Sedins have an easier time, because they stayed healthy enough to win awards in their best seasons.

Adjusted for era:
Lecavalier = 471 goals, 1051 points in 1212 games (.87 PPG)
Damphousse = 422 goals, 1193 points in 1378 games (.87 PPG)
Daniel = 442 goals, 1154 points in 1306 games (.88 PPG)
Henrik = 272 goals, 1181 points in 1330 games (.89 PPG)
Weight = 295 goals, 1099 points in 1238 games .89 PPG)
Roenick = 514 goals, 1228 points in 1363 games (.90 PPG)
Brad Richards = 337 goals, 1032 points in 1126 games (.92 PPG)
Elias = 464 goals, 1144 points in 1240 games (.92 PPG)
Tkachuk = 584 goals, 1150 points in 1201 games (.96 PPG)
Fleury = 468 goals, 1111 points in 1084 games (1.02 PPG)
Turgeon = 517 goals, 1315 points in 1294 games (1.02 PPG)
Mogilny = 480 goals, 1054 points in 990 games (1.07 PPG)

Hockey Reference adjusts all seasons to 82 games.
You would need to add 34 GP for 1995 & 2013.
Then +/- 2 games for every season before 1995.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Sedins' are HOF worthy but first ballot? Seems kinda debatable. Stats are okayish. Individual achievements are great (both won art rosses, 1 won Hart, 1 won Ted Lindsay). But moments? Almost forgettable.

honest question: what time zone do you live in and what’s your bedtime?

 

[Melrose Munch]

I'm not a big fan of the Sedins being in...but they're "famous" and it's the Hall of Fame...so I guess they were close and they have an angle...

It's like the "good guy" bonus that will, say, get Marc-Andre Fleury in the HOF before Tom Barrasso...(though, rightfully so, Fleury is/was better)...

He was not! Fleury is the meltdown king. Pittsburgh let him go for a reason.

 

[K Fleur]

He was not! Fleury is the meltdown king. Pittsburgh let him go for a reason.

Barrasso had plenty of meltdowns too.

On and off the ice.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, Barrasso has two of the biggest upsets in history hung on him...I've already detailed Marc-Andre Fleury's playoff performances in detail, as I've seen every playoff game he's ever played...I don't need to do that here, as his HOF thread is still a couple years off...

But backing Barrasso over Fleury went out, at the absolute latest, with exposed shoulders and eating Tide pods...

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Okay, so Alfredsson and Luongo are fine choices. Both deserving for sure, and Alfredsson waited longer than he should have. Anyway, they're in, it's all good.

The Sedins....?? To me, they're borderline Hall of Famers, so their getting in ahead of Zetterberg (or even Turgeon, as someone mentioned) is downright wrong. At least with Turgeon, you can say, 'He bounced around from team to team and wasn't associated with one franchise', and that's true, so the Sedins do have that going for them. But so does Zetterberg, who was overall the better individual performer -- esp. i big games -- than either Sedin was.

I would have been happier if the Sedins had waited a couple more years... or a few more years.

Both Sedins have a better HOF case than Alfredsson. Only Henrik would make my Hall

Alfredsson:

1x AS-2
Point finishes: 4,7,9
Assist finishes: 8
Goal finishes: 9,9,9

Henrik Sedin:

Hart
Ross
2x AS-1
Point finishes: 1,4,7,10
Assist finishes: 1,1,1,4,4,5,8,8
Goal finishes: none

Daniel Sedin:

Ross
Pearson
Point finishes: 1,8
Assist finishes: 3,3
Goal finishes: 4

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Out of Zetterberg, Alfredsson and the Sedins, I agree with many here that Zetterberg was the best. Forsberg light, with somewhat better defensive game, longevity and shot, but worse at pretty much everything else. Alfredsson and especially Henrik Sedin I feel are somewhat similar quality players: Henrik was a bit more skilled, but Alfie was more well rounded and dynamic, and a sizable bit more of a big game player.

But even if the Sedins had been the worst players or that they had the worst careers out of the bunch (which I tend to agree with, though consider debatable), I’d at the same time argue them by far the most Hall worthy, which in my mind is quite different.

Theirs is a completely unique HoF case, and at their best the show they put on was tremendously enjoyable to watch while at the same time putting up statistically dominant performances.

 

[Neutrinos]

Missed games are a more tangible issue with Turgeon's candidacy than Piestany.
Between 24yo-33yo, he played 69 or less games in 7 of 10 seasons. That was his prime.
He only had two T10 points finishes, but had five T10 PPG finishes.
The committee counts trophies and cups very heavily. It's hard to win those things with injury plagued seasons.
The virtual iron men like Iginla, St. Louis and the Sedins have an easier time, because they stayed healthy enough to win awards in their best seasons.




Hockey Reference adjusts all seasons to 82 games.
You would need to add 34 GP for 1995 & 2013.
Then +/- 2 games for every season before 1995.

I knew they prorated shortened seasons to 82 games, but didn't know they did that with every season

 

[tarheelhockey]

This is a good class. You can't tell the story of the past 20 years without the Sedins, Luongo, and Alfredsson. The Builders and Women's categories have good inductees as well.

I really don't get the criticism of having the Sedins in there. They're 1000-point scorers in the modern era, they each have top-level personal hardware. Sure they didn't win a Cup, but they were 1 game away (which is a lot closer than e.g. Pat Lafontaine ever got). They were among the most recognizable and notable players of the era. There's nobody sitting outside the Hall who is clear-cut more deserving than them.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

posted on the main board but this belongs here:

luongo is the first cupless goalie since… giacomin right?

and the first guy who never won a cup, vez/1AST, or (pre-AST) hart trophy since… ever?

 

[bobholly39]

Sedins have major individual regular season trophies - Zetterberg doesn't.

Including 3 Canucks in the same year is a 'nice story' and was part of the process too I'm sure.

It is what it is. Overall a solid class. I do think it very likely Zetterberg gets in soon.

Is Jagr officially eligible yet? Or is he still considered active, and minimum 4 years out?

 

[MS]

Missed games are a more tangible issue with Turgeon's candidacy than Piestany.
Between 24yo-33yo, he played 69 or less games in 7 of 10 seasons. That was his prime.
He only had two T10 points finishes, but had five T10 PPG finishes.
The committee counts trophies and cups very heavily. It's hard to win those things with injury plagued seasons.
The virtual iron men like Iginla, St. Louis and the Sedins have an easier time, because they stayed healthy enough to win awards in their best seasons.

Yeah. I've discussed this at length in the past. There were 5 seasons where he was tracking to be a top-10 scorer if he'd played the full 82 game schedule (or 84 one of those years) but didn't because of injury. If he's a 6x or 7x top-10 scorer instead of 2x, his career looks totally different. And in 99-00 he had a legit chance at the Art Ross if he'd maintained his level of play for a full season.

The thing that really bugs me about Turgeon is what happened in Montreal. That was his big chance to really, truly matter and leave a legacy. Traded to Montreal at age 25, he's the French captain who takes the torch when the Montreal Forum is closed, and he has a chance to be there for a decade and lead the team into a new century. But instead he doesn't like the pressure and demands a trade after a year. Yuck.

Now, I think there is still a pretty decent argument for Turgeon for the HHOF, but I see why he hasn't been inducted and there's no way he should be in over the Sedins or Alfredsson who were consummate leaders and professionals who led their teams for over a decade.

 

[MS]

I'm not a big fan of the Sedins being in...but they're "famous" and it's the Hall of Fame...so I guess they were close and they have an angle...

It's like the "good guy" bonus that will, say, get Marc-Andre Fleury in the HOF before Tom Barrasso...(though, rightfully so, Fleury is/was better)...

I just don't understand this point of view.

They have 1000+ points with one team which is basically an automatic. Close to 1200 adjusted points. Several times top-10 in scoring. Multi-time post-season AS. And major trophies - Hart, Art Ross, Pearson.

They're very, very clearly in line with non-controversial historical inductions like Sittler/Perreault/Savard/Sundin and many others only with a higher peak and more awards. They were always automatics and it baffles me that people still don't give them the respect they deserve.

And yes, they were also class acts of the first order. And that's part of the induction criteria.

 

[LuckyPierre]

Both Sedins have a better HOF case than Alfredsson. Only Henrik would make my Hall

Alfredsson:

1x AS-2
Point finishes: 4,7,9
Assist finishes: 8
Goal finishes: 9,9,9

Henrik Sedin:

Hart
Ross
2x AS-1
Point finishes: 1,4,7,10
Assist finishes: 1,1,1,4,4,5,8,8
Goal finishes: none

Daniel Sedin:

Ross
Pearson
Point finishes: 1,8
Assist finishes: 3,3
Goal finishes: 4

The Sedins peaked slightly higher than Alfredsson in the NHL with their scoring titles, however Alfredsson's NHL career was more consistently elite, and his totals demonstrate that (per game and overall).

And when factoring in the international element, Alfredsson's accomplishments eclipse that of both Sedins together.

In Nagano 98, Daniel Alfredsson tied Peter Forsberg for the team lead in points.

In SLC 2002, Alfredsson put up 5 points in 4 games.

Alfredsson led Sweden in goals and points in Turin 2006, en route to an Olympic gold medal.

Alfredsson at 37 co-led Sweden in goals in Vancouver 2010.

And as a 41 year old in Sochi 2014, Alfie tied for the lead in goals for Swedish forwards, en route to an Olympic silver medal.

Together, Alfredsson went 13-14-27 (26 games) in his five Olympic Games. He led Sweden in goals and points twice, and was point per game in all four Olympics up until he was 41 in Sochi, where he only put up 4 points in 6 games. He remains the modern day Swedish Olympic leader in goals and points.

Daniel put up 3-9-12 (18 games), and Henrik 3-3-6 (12 games). Neither led Sweden in any statistical category in an individual Olympic tournament. Only once was he outproduced by either, when Daniel put up 5 points to a 41 year old Alfie's 4 in 2014.

In the 30 Olympic games that the Sedins played, their combined stat line (6-12-18) is dwarfed by Alfie's (13-14-27) in just 26 games.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't think I'll ever be able to describe well enough...and it's not fair to anyone reading all of my nonsense...but I just find them to be a little less individually than the sum of their parts together...I don't know why I can't look past it. They're already fringe cases for me, and in this case, the little asterisk that I manufactured in my own head is enough for me to not be interested in them as HOFers.

And maybe I'm just not mature enough to understand their efficiency...though I try. I don't know, if I was drafting an all-time team for instance, and I was scouting players from all of time...I don't even think they'd be on my shortlist of players to watch, much less select. I know Vadim Sharifijanov and other Canucks guys feel differently, and that's very fair, but I just feel like their co-dependence (?) make them just a little lesser individually for my tastes...

And when you had to, the NHL could stop them. I think Henrik Sedin has the second worst plus/minus in the history of playoff elimination games (Joe Thornton) and their production in big spots doesn't seem reliable.

I don't know...it's not good, what I'm saying...I know it sucks. I try to be a net-positive on this board and I know this is substandard for me because I can't express it...but I just never sensed I was watching HOF-caliber players on the second half of the HNIC doubleheader...I can't do better than that, I'm sorry...