The 2022 Hockey Hall Of Fame

[gary69]

i feel like their on paper resumes are similar, but alfredsson was the main guy and leader on his teams and leclair wasn't and that to me makes a big difference.

by the same logic, i'd induct someone like mark howe eons before larry murphy, though obviously the actual hall had it the other way around.

Mark Howe was an obvious omission from HHOF for other reasons than his level of play (largely WHA), for a very a long time. It was brought up annually on these boards before he was finally selected, long overdue.

Outside of obvious ones (Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux types), can't really compare an inductee's player performance levels to each other based on their HHOF selections, there are so many other variables to consider.

Like somebody already mentioned, one of them being it's a popularity contest to an extent among the selection committee, and other post-career issues (media work, keep being involved in hockey after playing career) which have nothing to do with their playing career, have a lot of weight.

Personally, I think it would help, if the HHOF Selection committee would only include players and managers/builders who have been previously selected as members themselves (after a waiting period), plus a couple of journalists (there are few too many now). But in general over half of the current committee members are fine choices, and maybe they have (had) lack of interested suitabale candidates.

One welcome change for the committee has been the inclusion of European members in recent years (Stastny, Larionov, Kurri etc.).

 

[gary69]

Both Sedins have a better HOF case than Alfredsson. Only Henrik would make my Hall

Alfredsson:

1x AS-2
Point finishes: 4,7,9
Assist finishes: 8
Goal finishes: 9,9,9

Yeah, Alfredsson getting in is a really low bar.

During his 20+ year professional career, he was one year selected as a top 12 player (AS-2). That's all. So that means that just during his career there were maybe 150-200 better player seasons than this one season of his. And during the 100+ years of hockey history, there are well over 1000 better seasons by players. With that kind of record, he should be happy that anyone outside of his local clubs remembers him at all. Certainly nothing worthy of being selected as one of the greatest and most famous ice hockey players of all time.

Wow, whopping three top 10 point & goals finishes during a 20+ year career. Again, that means there were about 400 similar achievements during his career. And over 2000 during NHL history. Truly unique, and worth remembering, eh?

And, what an amazing international record, right? Out of 14 international tournaments, the team he was part of, managed to win one whopping time. And during this one sequence of 8 games, his team still managed to lose twice.

And yes, he did manage to score 5 goals in that tournament, while his teammates scored the other 31 goals. So I guess that's good, although nothing out of the ordinary compared to other best teams' first line players in that tournament (couple of whom score more points than him). And going pointless in the final when it mattered most. Whereas guys like Forsberg, Sundin, Lidstrom and Zetterberg actually showed up in the final.

Also during those 14 tournaments, his teams were medalists half the time, so I guess 50 % success rate is sort of an achievement. But to be selected to HHOF based on that, it's not much to stand on.

Would be nothing wrong selecting Alfredsson to local Ottawa Senators Hall of Fame, but anything beyond that is cringeworthy.

Well, as there have been persons with high moral standards and they've declined to accept an Oscar, there is still hope that Alfredsson can show similar character, do the right thing, and turn down the HHOF selection. Would be even better if his parting words would advice HHOF getting rid of some less deserving members like Duff, Lowe etc.

 

[overpass]

Did anyone think Alfredsson was a Hall of Famer at any point during his first decade in the league?

I always saw him as a borderline all-star, similar to some of the other captains of the Canadian teams like Ryan Smyth and Saku Koivu

Smyth age 24 - 33:
230 goals, 523 points in 636 games, or 67 points per 82 games

Koivu age 22 - 32
139 goals, 490 points in 568 games, or 71 points per 82 games

Alfredsson age 23 - 31
219 goals, 568 points in 629 games, or 74 points per 82 games


It wasn't until the age of 33 when he found himself on a line with 22 year old Spezza and 25 year old Heatley that his production resembled that of a perennial all-star

Alfredsson only finished in the top 10 in PPG twice during his career, and both times Spezza and Heatley were in the top 10 as well

2006
Alfredsson (3rd), Spezza (4th), Heatley (8th)

2007
Spezza (5th), Heatley (6th), Alfredsson (15th)

2008
Alfredsson (4th), Spezza (6th), Heatley (10th)

Daniel Alfredsson peaked in scoring after age 30 for several reasons, only one of which was playing with all-star linemates.

First, the post-lockout style of hockey was a better fit for Alfredsson, especially when it came to defensive play. With more open-ice play and less grinding along the boards, his skating was more valuable and his average at best size was no longer a weakness.

Second and more importantly, Alfredsson played for Jacques Martin in his 20s. Martin spread the ice time around more than most coaches of his era, leading to team success but not big individual numbers. From 1999-00 to 2003-04, Alfredsson was the best forward on one of the very best offensive teams of the era, a team that was absolutely stacked at RW. Because of his team situation and coach, he played fewer minutes than other star RWs, and generally with weaker linemates.

Here's the deployment Daniel Alfredsson received from 1999-00 to 2003-04, compared to the all-star RWs of this era. He did very well to score a point per game while playing under 20 minutes/game with second liners.

1999-00
Alfredsson: 18:45 ATOI/game, playing with Vinny Prospal at C and Rob Zamuner/Joe Juneau/Shawn McEachern at LW.
Jagr: 23:12 ATOI/game, playing with some combination of Jan Hrdina/Martin Straka/Kip Miller/Robert Lang.
Bure: 24:23 ATOI/game, playing with Viktor Kozlov at C and Ray Whitney at LW.

2000-01
Alfredsson: 18:47 ATOI/game, playing with Alexei Yashin at C and Shawn McEachern at LW.
Jagr: 23:19 ATOI/game, playing with Mario Lemieux/Jan Hrdina/Kevin Stevens
Bure: 26:52 ATOI/game, playing with Marcus Nilson/Viktor Kozlov/Greg Adams/Rob Niedermayer

For these two seasons, Jagr and Bure received far more ice time than Alfredsson. He really didn't have a chance at an RW spot. Alfredsson did have legit 1st line linemates for this one season when he played with Yashin and McEachern.

2001-02
Alfredsson: 20:19 ATOI/game, playing with Todd White at C and Magnus Arvedson at LW.
Iginla: 22:22 ATOI/game, playing with Craig Conroy at C and Dean McAmmond at LW.
Guerin: 20:45 ATOI/game, playing with Jozef Stumpel/Joe Thornton/Martin Lapointe

Iginla didn't have great linemates but he still played over 2 minutes/game more than Alfredsson. Guerin had much better playmaking support than Alfredsson and was really not on the same level as a player.

2002-03
Alfredsson: 19:32 ATOI/game, playing with Todd White at C and Magnus Arvedson at LW
Bertuzzi: 20:34 ATOI/game, playing with Brendan Morrison at C and Markus Naslund at LW
Hejduk: 19:50 ATOI/game, playing with Peter Forsberg at C and Alex Tanguay at LW

Hard to compete with the West Coast Express and peak Peter Forsberg as linemates. Alfredsson played with average at best second liners while the RW all-star spots went to the RWs of the top two lines in the league.

2003-04
Alfredsson: 19:24 ATOI/game, playing with Todd White/Bryan Smolinski at C and Peter Schaefer at LW
St. Louis: 20:35 ATOI/game, playing with Vincent Lecavalier at C and Ruslan Fedetenko at LW
Jarome Iginla: 21:18 ATOI/game, playing with Craig Conroy/Oleg Saprykin/Steve Reinprecht/Matthew Lombardi/Dean McAmmond

Again, Alfredsson played 2 minutes less per game than Iginla, and had significantly worse linemates than Marty St. Louis.

When Jacques Martin left and Bryan Murray entered the picture, Alfredsson finally got typical star forward ice time and got to play with other star forwards.

2005-06
Alfredsson: 21:41 ATOI/game, playing with Jason Spezza at C and Dany Heatley at LW
Jagr: 22:05 ATOI/game, playing with Michael Nylander at C and Martin Straka at LW
Cheechoo: 19:57 ATOI/game, playing with Joe Thornton at C and Nils Ekman at LW

2006-07
Alfredsson: 21:35 ATOI/game, playing about half the year with Spezza at C and Heatley at RW, and about half the year with Mike Fisher at C and Peter Schaefer at LW
Heatley: 21:02 ATOI/game, playing with Spezza at C and Alfredsson/Eaves/Kelly at RW
St. Louis: 24:09 ATOI/game, playing with Vincent Lecavalier at C and Vinny Prospal at LW

Heatley was voted the 1st team RW, but Alfredsson showed he was the better player in the playoffs.

After this year Ottawa hired John Paddock as the coach, who rode the top line even harder than Murray.

2007-08
Alfredsson: 22:17 ATOI/game, playing with Jason Spezza at C and Dany Heatley at RW
Iginla: 21:26 ATOI/game, playing with Daymond Langkow at C and Alex Tanguay at LW
Kovalev: 19:33 ATOI/game, playing with Tomas Plekanec at C and Andrei Kostitsyn at LW

Alfredsson was a Hart contender through the end of January. On January 25, he was leading the league in scoring with 67 points in 47 games, and he averaged 23:29 through the first 44 games. But hip injuries and knee injuries took their toll in the second half of the season. I blame John Paddock for over-playing the top line. His solution to everything as a coach was to send out Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson, and he burned out Alfredsson and Heatley and lost the rest of the team in the process.

Alfredsson was never the same player after these injuries, becoming more of a playmaker than an all-around scoring threat.

Anyway, Alfredsson was a legitimate star forward for 5 seasons before the lockout, the best forward on one of the best and highest scoring regular season teams, who produced at a point per game level despite being tasked with carrying the second line.

 

[Staniowski]

All four were good players, especially Luongo and Alfredsson.

The Sedins weren't great players, but they were good.....good enough for the Hall, I guess.

 

[MadLuke]

Wow, whopping three top 10 point & goals finishes during a 20+ year career. Again, that means there were about 400 similar achievements during his career. And over 2000 during NHL history. Truly unique, and worth remembering, eh?

Could be my lack of brain power, but I feel that does not fully take into account how much those top 10 are populated by repeat players and how rare it is to be among those repeating players.

If my database/code is not wrong, during Alfredsson career of 1995-1996 to 2013-2014, here is the list of player that achieved to be 3 times in the Top 10 of scoring.


[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]fullName[/TD]
[TD]top10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jaromir Jagr[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joe Sakic[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sidney Crosby[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Teemu Selanne[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Peter Forsberg[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joe Thornton[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Martin St. Louis[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ilya Kovalchuk[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Paul Kariya[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steven Stamkos[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jarome Iginla[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ron Francis[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Lemieux[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Evgeni Malkin[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Markus Naslund[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Henrik Sedin[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pavel Bure[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John LeClair[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pavol Demitra[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dany Heatley[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ziggy Palffy[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nicklas Backstrom[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Daniel Alfredsson[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Patrik Elias[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Modano[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Marc Savard[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phil Kessel[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

28 of them, which maybe goes directly into your point and saying the same thing, but I feel the 400 similar achievement during is career could mean that hundreds of player achieved 3 top 10 during is career, which sound magnitude over the reality.

From 1925-1926 to the 2020-2021 season included, 126 nhler achieved to make 3 Top 10 in scoring, a lot of players have short peak windows (a single top 10 being quite frequent in a career) when they are able to make it, but also there is relatively small group (66) of players with 5 of more of them that has 467 of those seasons 940 seasons, leaving just half of them for the rest.

Aldredsson has a bit of the Marleau/Weber going for him in the sense of the first face of a new franchise and a long captain.

 

[NyQuil]

Well, as there have been persons with high moral standards and they've declined to accept an Oscar, there is still hope that Alfredsson can show similar character, do the right thing, and turn down the HHOF selection. Would be even better if his parting words would advice HHOF getting rid of some less deserving members like Duff, Lowe etc.

And in John LeClair's case, you might as well just induct Eric Lindros twice.

It's a pretty remarkable coincidence that all of his best seasons took place at the identical period when Lindros played for the Flyers at the same time.

He was a 40-50 point player across 6 seasons when not stapled to the most dominant centre of his era.

If Jonathan Cheechoo had avoided double hernia surgery, he'd probably be John LeClair too.

 

[NyQuil]

Both Sedins have a better HOF case than Alfredsson. Only Henrik would make my Hall

Alfredsson:

1x AS-2
Point finishes: 4,7,9
Assist finishes: 8
Goal finishes: 9,9,9

This unnamed player was a first ballot HoFer:

2x AS-2
Point finishes: 4, 7
Assist finishes: 10
Goal finishes: 4, 8

Clearly there are other criteria in play.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

This unnamed player was a first ballot HoFer:

2x AS-2
Point finishes: 4, 7
Assist finishes: 10
Goal finishes: 4, 8

Clearly there are other criteria in play.

Such as? You want to go the "best player in franchise history" route?

The Sedins are the #1 and #2 all time scorers in Canucks history, by a gap of 300 points. They are the only 2 players to score over 1000 points as a Canuck. They're 1 and 2 in assists as well (by 200) and they're 1 and 7 in goals.

Cool story, Sundin is a borderline HOF'er at best and laughably bad as a 1st ballot guy.

 

[gary69]

And in John LeClair's case, you might as well just induct Eric Lindros twice.

It's a pretty remarkable coincidence that all of his best seasons took place at the identical period when Lindros played for the Flyers at the same time.

He was a 40-50 point player across 6 seasons when not stapled to the most dominant centre of his era.

If Jonathan Cheechoo had avoided double hernia surgery, he'd probably be John LeClair too.

Well, I prefer what players actually did rather than what ifs, adjusted stuff or other similar exercises. Obviously there is no denying that players often benefit from playing with other good players, but it's not like praising Rob Brown here. Many players selected to HHOF played with other better or great players.

Le Clair did well even when Lindros was out injured.

 

[NyQuil]

Basically it comes down to how much you value peak over consistency or vice versa.

If I was a small Hall kind of person, I would only include people who had both.

But given the larger Hall approach, I do think there's room for both.

Peak accounts for those who had dominant seasons and were at the top of their game against contemporaries.

Consistency helps to offset against the influence of periods of team strength and stellar linemates.

 

[MadLuke]

And in John LeClair's case, you might as well just induct Eric Lindros twice.

It's a pretty remarkable coincidence that all of his best seasons took place at the identical period when Lindros played for the Flyers at the same time.

He was a 40-50 point player across 6 seasons when not stapled to the most dominant centre of his era.

If Jonathan Cheechoo had avoided double hernia surgery, he'd probably be John LeClair too.

It is a remarkable concidence (everyone does remark it, because it is so clear-cut), but Lindros missed enough game to have some idea what LeClair Lindros less during his prime looked like.

His +/- goes down significantly, assist per game a little, goals stay almost the same, the gap between LeClair with Lindros vs Leclair without Lindros is not that vast in that era.

LeClair usage change completely with the trade, he did not just gain one of the best center of the league, he gain first unit PP time and first line deployment ice time versus being a dept player.

Is eclosion is maybe a bit bigger and later than say Cam Neely, but he is another example of a player that more than double is production after a trade to a different team, if Lecavalier or MacKinnon had been traded to a team with a superstar linemate with a specific timing we could also build that narrative I feel like.

For the reference:

John LeClair HOF?

Isn't it about time to induct John LeClair into the HOF? He was maybe the most dominant LW during the second half of the 1990s after Paul Kariya. LeClair was named to five consecutive NHL All-Star Teams during that period. No other player outside the HOF has been selected so many times. He was a...

hfboards.mandatory.com

LeClair with Lindros:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Games[/TD]
[TD]Goals[/TD]
[TD]Assists[/TD]
[TD]Points[/TD]
[TD]"+/-"[/TD]
[TD]GPG[/TD]
[TD]APG[/TD]
[TD]PPG[/TD]
[TD]PlusPerGames[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19951996[/TD]
[TD]73[/TD]
[TD]46[/TD]
[TD]40[/TD]
[TD]86[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]0.63[/TD]
[TD]0.55[/TD]
[TD]1.18[/TD]
[TD]0.27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19961997[/TD]
[TD]52[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]66[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]0.63[/TD]
[TD]0.63[/TD]
[TD]1.27[/TD]
[TD]0.69[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19971998[/TD]
[TD]63[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]67[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]0.60[/TD]
[TD]0.46[/TD]
[TD]1.06[/TD]
[TD]0.38[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19981999[/TD]
[TD]67[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]41[/TD]
[TD]79[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]0.57[/TD]
[TD]0.61[/TD]
[TD]1.18[/TD]
[TD]0.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19992000[/TD]
[TD]55[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]52[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]0.49[/TD]
[TD]0.45[/TD]
[TD]0.95[/TD]
[TD]0.13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sum[/TD]
[TD]310[/TD]
[TD]182[/TD]
[TD]168[/TD]
[TD]350[/TD]
[TD]118[/TD]
[TD]0.59[/TD]
[TD]0.54[/TD]
[TD]1.13[/TD]
[TD]0.38[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

LeClair without Lindros:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Games[/TD]
[TD]Goals[/TD]
[TD]Assists[/TD]
[TD]Points[/TD]
[TD]"+/-"[/TD]
[TD]GPG[/TD]
[TD]APG[/TD]
[TD]PPG[/TD]
[TD]PlusPerGames[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19951996[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.56[/TD]
[TD]0.67[/TD]
[TD]1.22[/TD]
[TD]0.11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19961997[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0.57[/TD]
[TD]0.47[/TD]
[TD]1.03[/TD]
[TD]0.27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19971998[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]0.68[/TD]
[TD]0.37[/TD]
[TD]1.05[/TD]
[TD]0.32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19981999[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0.56[/TD]
[TD]0.67[/TD]
[TD]1.22[/TD]
[TD]0.56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19992000[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.48[/TD]
[TD]0.44[/TD]
[TD]0.93[/TD]
[TD]0.04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sum[/TD]
[TD]94[/TD]
[TD]53[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]98[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]0.56[/TD]
[TD]0.48[/TD]
[TD]1.04[/TD]
[TD]0.22[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[The Panther]

Such as? You want to go the "best player in franchise history" route?

The Sedins are the #1 and #2 all time scorers in Canucks history, by a gap of 300 points. They are the only 2 players to score over 1000 points as a Canuck. They're 1 and 2 in assists as well (by 200) and they're 1 and 7 in goals.

Cool story, Sundin is a borderline HOF'er at best and laughably bad as a 1st ballot guy.

Wait, are you seriously saying an individual Sedin brother is more Hall-of-Fame worthy than Mats Sundin??

 

[JackSlater]

With the Sedins, I think that there is a temptation to consider whether their talent is of the typical HHOF level or whether they could make the HHOF if they had played for different teams. HHOF consideration is generally based on what you did though, and they did enough, and are well known and well liked enough, to be uncontroversial HHOF inductees. I highly doubt that either of them sniffs the HHOF if they hadn't played their whole careers together... but they did play their whole careers together, and they played well enough in that perfect situation to get in.

 

[Sentinel]

Can someone explain to me the reason for Luongo induction? The guy DOES NOT HAVE A SINGLE VEZINA! That means that at no point in his career he was considered the greatest goaltender in the world!

I'm OK with Zetterberg waiting another year or two. Getting inducted with Datsyuk would be epic.

 

[MadLuke]

Can someone explain to me the reason for Luongo induction? The guy DOES NOT HAVE A SINGLE VEZINA! That means that at no point in his career he was considered the greatest goaltender in the world!

The numbers of skater that get in that never got close to be in the conversation has the best player of their position any season is quite large, at least Luongo was a really close second place 1 time, he was quite in the conversation to be the best for a long window.

He lost to Brodeur by 6 points the year he was second place for the Hart.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Rank[/TH]
[TH]Player[/TH]
[TH]Years[/TH]
[TH]GSAA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1.[/TD]
[TD]Tony Esposito*[/TD]
[TD]1968-84[/TD]
[TD]498[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.[/TD]
[TD]Patrick Roy*[/TD]
[TD]1984-03[/TD]
[TD]461[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.[/TD]
[TD]Dominik Hasek*[/TD]
[TD]1990-08[/TD]
[TD]413[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.[/TD]
[TD]Bernie Parent*[/TD]
[TD]1965-79[/TD]
[TD]321[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.[/TD]
[TD]Ken Dryden*[/TD]
[TD]1970-79[/TD]
[TD]317[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6.[/TD]
[TD]Jacques Plante*[/TD]
[TD]1952-73[/TD]
[TD]295[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.[/TD]
[TD]Roberto Luongo[/TD]
[TD]1999-19[/TD]
[TD]270[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.[/TD]
[TD]Glenn Hall*[/TD]
[TD]1952-71[/TD]
[TD]240[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.[/TD]
[TD]Billy Smith*[/TD]
[TD]1971-89[/TD]
[TD]231[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.[/TD]
[TD]Martin Brodeur*[/TD]
[TD]1991-15[/TD]
[TD]207[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The stats has a huge default to boost goaltenders from high scoring era over those of lower scoring era (Hasek saving 50 goals in the late 90s era where goal are rare and ultra valuable is not the same than during Parent/Tony Esposito/Roy high scoring era), but all of those are non brainer Hall of famer imo.

 

[Sentinel]

It isn't the Hall of Statistics. It isn't just distilling down to career points/game.

I'm about as big of a Turgeon supporter as there is, but there is no f***ing way he belongs in there before the Sedins.

Being the most important players in the history of a city and a franchise matters.
Being hugely important to your country internationally matters.
Being unique and special and having star quality matters. It matters that people will still talk about the Sedins in 100 years and Turgeon will be mostly forgotten.
Doing things that change how the game is played matters.
Being amongst the biggest class acts in the history of the sport matters.

The Sedins were all of these things and Turgeon was none of them. Oh, and the Sedins won scoring titles and MVPs and Turgeon never came close (outside of '99 if he could have stayed healthy, but he didn't).

I'm sorry: are you talking about the Sedins or Pavel Bure? You just described the latter to a T.

 

[NyQuil]

Such as? You want to go the "best player in franchise history" route?

The Sedins are the #1 and #2 all time scorers in Canucks history, by a gap of 300 points. They are the only 2 players to score over 1000 points as a Canuck. They're 1 and 2 in assists as well (by 200) and they're 1 and 7 in goals.

My point is that I think all three of them should be in.

If we're looking at franchise impact, look at what team records Daniel Alfredsson would have if he had been a Toronto Maple Leaf, a team that's been around since the beginning of the NHL:

Toronto's all time stats leaders:

Regular season goals
420 - Mats Sundin (427 - Daniel Alfredsson)

Regular season power play goals
124 - Mats Sundin (131 - Daniel Alfredsson)

Playoff goals
34 - Wendel Clark (51 - Daniel Alfredsson)

Playoff power play goals
13 - Darryl Sittler (25 - Daniel Alfredsson)

Playoff game winning goals
11 - Ted Kennedy (11 - Daniel Alfredsson)

Regular season assists
620 - Borje Salming (682 - Daniel Alfredsson)

Regular season points
987 - Mats Sundin (1108 - Daniel Alfredsson)

Playoff points
77 - Doug Gilmour (100 - Daniel Alfredsson)

Regular season +/-
151 - Tim Horton (153 - Daniel Alfredsson)

 

[Sentinel]

The numbers of skater that get in that never got close to be in the conversation has the best player of their position any season is quite large, at least Luongo was a really close second place 1 time, he was quite in the conversation to be.

He lost to Brodeur by 6 points the year he was second place for the Hart.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Rank[/TH]
[TH]Player[/TH]
[TH]Years[/TH]
[TH]GSAA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1.[/TD]
[TD]Tony Esposito*[/TD]
[TD]1968-84[/TD]
[TD]498[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.[/TD]
[TD]Patrick Roy*[/TD]
[TD]1984-03[/TD]
[TD]461[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.[/TD]
[TD]Dominik Hasek*[/TD]
[TD]1990-08[/TD]
[TD]413[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.[/TD]
[TD]Bernie Parent*[/TD]
[TD]1965-79[/TD]
[TD]321[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.[/TD]
[TD]Ken Dryden*[/TD]
[TD]1970-79[/TD]
[TD]317[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6.[/TD]
[TD]Jacques Plante*[/TD]
[TD]1952-73[/TD]
[TD]295[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.[/TD]
[TD]Roberto Luongo[/TD]
[TD]1999-19[/TD]
[TD]270[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.[/TD]
[TD]Glenn Hall*[/TD]
[TD]1952-71[/TD]
[TD]240[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.[/TD]
[TD]Billy Smith*[/TD]
[TD]1971-89[/TD]
[TD]231[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.[/TD]
[TD]Martin Brodeur*[/TD]
[TD]1991-15[/TD]
[TD]207[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The stats has a huge default to boost goaltenders from high scoring era over those of lower scoring era, but all of those are non brainer Hall of famer imo.

But the competition for skaters is 20X bigger than for goalies. You're competing against thirty other players, as opposed to... you know.

No Vezinas, no Cups (with a ball dropped in the Finals)? I'm not convinced he is a HOFer.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yzerman was very narrowly (and heavily out-gunned in the first place votes) only voted the best center in the league one time...what's his case for the HOF in the binary land of Sentinel...?

 

[MadLuke]

But the competition for skaters is 20X bigger than for goalies. You're competing against thirty other players, as opposed to... you know.

I meant by position ( being the best left-winger, etc... not the best skater overall to take that somewhat into account, the competition for all star team spot is just 3 to 4 time bigger depending of defenceman or forward. And if we count only 1 goaltender by team we could maybe only consider only the top 6 forward and top 4 d here has well.

And a lot of HHOF were never in the conversation of being a top 3 in their position any single season, Carbonneau was never a third place all star or K.Lowe, Andreychuck did it once but left wing is not necessarily 3 time deeper than goaltender some years.

Also to note many season 2003-2004 Luongo or 47 wins 2006-2007 Luongo would have been a Vezina winners (maybe not most, but many season), prime Brodeur/Kiprusoft is not a big deal to loose to and many could say he got a bit shafted playing in the Florida market in 03-04, having a 38 games only goaltender gaining more vote than you seem a bit unfair, has good those games were.

 

[The Panther]

Can someone explain to me the reason for Luongo induction? The guy DOES NOT HAVE A SINGLE VEZINA! That means that at no point in his career he was considered the greatest goaltender in the world!

That's kind of a flimsy argument, isn't it? It's akin to saying a forward shouldn't get it in if he never won a single Pearson / Lindsay. Standards are hard enough on goalies as it is...

 

[Neutrinos]

A player that seems to have been all but forgotten in this discussion is Keith Tkachuk

584 adj. goals & 1150 adj. points in 1201 games

He was essentially a 40 goal, point-per-game player for the first 12 seasons or so of his career

I feel like he'd get drafted ahead of a lot - if not the majority - of the wingers who've been inducted over the last couple of decades

I'd certainly take him over D. Sedin and Alfredsson

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

But the competition for skaters is 20X bigger than for goalies. You're competing against thirty other players, as opposed to... you know.

No Vezinas, no Cups (with a ball dropped in the Finals)? I'm not convinced he is a HOFer.

... But the competition for skaters isn't really 20 times bigger than for goalies. If there are 5 goalies that are good enough to challenge for the Vezina on an annual basis, there aren't really 100 skaters that are legitimate challengers for the Hart/Lindsay/Art Ross/etc. on an annual basis.

 

[NyQuil]

A player that seems to have been all but forgotten in this discussion is Keith Tkachuk

584 adj. goals & 1150 adj. points in 1201 games

He was essentially a 40 goal, point-per-game player for the first 12 seasons or so of his career

I feel like he'd get drafted ahead of a lot - if not the majority - of the wingers who've been inducted over the last couple of decades

I'd certainly take him over D. Sedin and Alfredsson

I certainly wouldn’t.

He was great at his one-dimension but still a one-dimensional player.

Was he ever the best player on his team?

 

[Neutrinos]

I certainly wouldn’t.

He was great at his one-dimension but still a one-dimensional player.

Was he ever the best player on his team?

Yes, just about every season during his time in Winnipeg/Phoenix