The 2022 Hockey Hall Of Fame

[Sentinel]

Are you unfamiliar with 2007 Hart voting?


What's the next argument, "Well, other than Brodeur and Crosby, who did he lose to?" Are we about to break out into a Monty Python sketch here?

Let me get this straight: Being one of the top 3-5 in the world at your position for a decade is merely "nice" and unremarkable, but winning one Conn Smythe makes you a Hall of Famer? There's absolutely no way you consistently believe this to be true.



Here we get to the real heart of the matter: You judge goalies almost entirely based on team success. There is no more flagrant admission of this than being the guy that brings up Osgood in a Luongo discussion.

If you want to be stuck in the 1980s and still assign team success to individuals, then go ahead. But we can we at least stop this song-and-dance routine where you try to justify that opinion by pretending that Zetterberg's award recognition is somehow notable while trying to downplay all of Luongo's?

If you think the guy shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame because he has no Cups then just say that, rather than coming up with silly post hoc rationalizations that are transparently inconsistent with how you rate everyone else.

You have completely disregarded my main point that Osgood and Zetterberg had at least one legendary playoffs, which Luongo does not. Yes, having an award and winning the Cup (in Osgood's case -- three Cups) is better than not winning the Cup or any awards. Bure didn't win the Cup but at least had one legendary run (not to mention, three retro-Richards).

Anyway, this is not the hill I will die on. I'll be fine with Luongo in the HHOF. He will be far from the worst inductee.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

You have completely disregarded my main point that Osgood and Zetterberg had at least one legendary playoffs, which Luongo does not. Yes, having an award and winning the Cup (in Osgood's case -- three Cups) is better than not winning the Cup or any awards. Bure didn't win the Cup but at least had one legendary run (not to mention, three retro-Richards).

Anyway, this is not the hill I will die on. I'll be fine with Luongo in the HHOF. He will be far from the worst inductee.

I haven't disregarded that at all, I'm fully aware that's what you think. That only supports my actual point here, which is that you are overvaluing playoff team success. Almost nobody else here is going to agree that one playoff run makes you a Hall of Famer ahead of 15 years of consistent excellence. Being the better player is better than being the worse player, and how good your teammates were, what sportswriters thought of you, and how well you timed your peak seasons to not coincide with other players' peaks should be seen as decidedly secondary to that.

I'd also point out that there are a whole lot of team effects baked into any so-called "legendary" run, because if you're going to try to argue that Luongo has never been great in the playoffs then you obviously didn't watch him play in 2007.

 

[NyQuil]

I'd also point out that there are a whole lot of team effects baked into any so-called "legendary" run, because if you're going to try to argue that Luongo has never been great in the playoffs then you obviously didn't watch him play in 2007.

Not only that, but you have situations where an opposing player will put up a more legendary run and not be awarded the Conn Smythe because their overall team was weaker.

McDavid managed to lead the playoffs in scoring despite only playing three rounds and 16 games, but Makar is the one with the name on the trophy.

 

[MS]

View attachment 563531


man it has been a week of handling awful hall of fame hot takes hasn't it?

It's honestly a bit jaw-dropping to me.

Especially the Sedins. Like, these guys are absolute slam-dunk HHOFers. There shouldn't have been an argument in the world. They're 1000+ point one-team guys with MVPs/scoring titles/Pearsons who are the most important players in the history of a franchise and as people were amongst the biggest class acts in NHL history. These aren't fringe candidates. These are solidly mid-level HHOFers. There is nobody in the history of the sport with similar careers (one-team players with big career numbers and an MVP-level peak) who didn't cakewalk into the HHOF.

I don't know if the East Coast was asleep and missed their entire careers? Or it's lingering anti-Canuck bias from 2011? Or if this strange need to bully and ridicule them that they seem to bring out in people didn't die with their retirement? Or if people just don't understand where the HHOF standards sit. But it's ridiculous.

 

[MadLuke]

Specially Henrik, on a quick look there is no retired skater than won the Hart Trophy that is not in the HOF.

The onlys winner not in the halls are Rollins, Theodore.

It could change with Perry and specially Hall, H. Sedin would seem a strange one to break that tradition.

No retired player that won the Art Ross is missing in the Hall of Fame, Sedins being the only 2 not there before they were introduced, with people waiting for Jagr to retire. Again that could change with Jamie Benn and a Hall becoming harder to get in.

From 2005/06 to 2014-2015, Henrik Sedin is second only to Datsyuk in +/- and 5th in points behind 4 hall of famer (Ovechkin-Crosby-Thornton-St.Louis).

Even without the captaincy/face of a Canadian franchise/famously part of a twins duo, he would be in or at least a first Hart winner not getting in to choose same to be the first art Ross winner to miss it.

 

[NyQuil]

Or if people just don't understand where the HHOF standards sit.

Well, there are a number of Don Quixote's still tilting at the small Hall windmill when that ship sailed in 2002.

 

[Sentinel]

Not only that, but you have situations where an opposing player will put up a more legendary run and not be awarded the Conn Smythe because their overall team was weaker.

McDavid managed to lead the playoffs in scoring despite only playing three rounds and 16 games, but Makar is the one with the name on the trophy.

Because Makar was the better player of the two and accomplished more.

 

[NyQuil]

Because Makar was the better player of the two and accomplished more.

Arguably, sure, but we haven't seen an offensive performance like McDavid's in quite some time.

The point I'm making is that there's no list of "best playoff performances", only a list of Conn Smythe winners, an award that pretty much requires your team to win the Cup or at least come very close to it.

From an individual player perspective, I would give McDavid pretty much the same credit for the 2021-2022 playoffs as I would Makar.

Team-based accomplishments really helped the cases of guys like Dick Duff, Kevin Lowe, Clark Gillies and Glenn Anderson. Whether or not they would make it on their own individual merits is an interesting question.

 

[Sentinel]

There is no "list," but people still remember. Bure had a legendary run in 94, Fedorov in 95, Hasek in 99, Forsberg in 02, Primeau in 04, MAF in 18, and Kucherov in 20 and 21. They did not win the Smythe but added nicely to their legacy.

Btw, why do people insist the Sedins are more important to the Canucks franchise than Bure?

 

[Neutrinos]

Kessel was the best player on those Toronto teams which is a big reason why they sucked.

But the dude was always f***ing money in the playoffs.

Tkachuk was horrible in the playoffs. One of those classic “his game is built for the playoffs” players that never showed up.

Yeah, his playoff resume is subpar for a player of his stature, but that's what happens when you spend the majority of your peak/prime on an average team in a loaded Western Conference

But a lot of Hall of Famers have had less than stellar playoff performances at one stage or another during their careers, and it was often just a matter of luck for many of them that they happened to be on the right team at the right time that their lack of individual production was overshadowed by their team's success

Yzerman had just 13 points in 20 playoff games the first time he hoisted the Cup in Detroit

The Red Wings repeated as champs in '98 despite Shanahan managing only 5 goals, 9 points in 20 playoff games

The 2000 Avalanche were able to make it all the way to Game 7 of the WCF despite the fact that Sakic had just 1 goal, 5 points, and was -6 over the final 14 games of those playoffs

A 28 year old Kariya had just 6 goals, 12 points in 21 games during Anaheim's run to the Finals in '03

A 27 year old Francis finished 6th on the Penguins in playoff scoring during their '91 Cup run. 6th!

A 32 year old Guy Carbonneau had just 3 goals, 6 points across 20 playoff games for the '93 Habs

A 29 year old Anderson was 5th in playoff scoring for the Cup winning Oilers in 1990


In '92 and '93, Tkachuk scores 7 goals in his first 13 playoff games
In '96 his Jets faced the 1st place Red Wings, and he manages just 3 points in 6 games
In '97, he scores 6 goals in a 7 game series against Anaheim
In '98, he manages 6 points in 6 games against the eventual Cup winners
In '99, he produces just 4 points in 7 games against the Blues with Pronger and MacInnis playing 35+ minutes a game
And in '00, he's held to just 2 points over 5 games against an Avs team that featured Sakic, Forsberg, Drury, Deadmarch, Tanguay, Bourque, Foote, Ozolinsh, and, oh yeah, Patrick Roy in net

What do you think Shanahan's playoff numbers would've been had he replaced Tkachuk on those Phoenix teams?

The reality is, Tkachuk's peak and most of his prime were spent on an average team with 1 scoring line that almost always had a 1st round match-up against one of the Cup contending juggernauts in the Western Conference which could send out multiple Hall of Famers to shutdown that 1 scoring line

So, unlike a lot of the stars who had playoff success during Tkachuk's era, Keith always faced the opponent's best defensive line, and rarely had an opportunity to pad his stats against lower seeded teams during the postseason

 

[The Panther]

Especially the Sedins. Like, these guys are absolute slam-dunk HHOFers. There shouldn't have been an argument in the world. They're 1000+ point one-team guys with MVPs/scoring titles/Pearsons who are the most important players in the history of a franchise and as people were amongst the biggest class acts in NHL history. These aren't fringe candidates. These are solidly mid-level HHOFers. There is nobody in the history of the sport with similar careers (one-team players with big career numbers and an MVP-level peak) who didn't cakewalk into the HHOF.

I don't know if the East Coast was asleep and missed their entire careers? Or it's lingering anti-Canuck bias from 2011? Or if this strange need to bully and ridicule them that they seem to bring out in people didn't die with their retirement? Or if people just don't understand where the HHOF standards sit. But it's ridiculous.

You'll notice your post is arguing that the Sedin twins are one person ("MVPs/scoring titles/Pearsons"), as if one player won multiple awards.

 

[MS]

You'll notice your post is arguing that the Sedin twins are one person ("MVPs/scoring titles/Pearsons"), as if one player won multiple awards.

One has a Hart and an Art Ross. The other has a Pearson and an Art Ross.

There is no comparable (even remotely) who has peaked this high and has their level of career numbers - especially with one team - and isn't in the HHOF.

It's absurd that this even has to be a discussion.

 

[The Panther]

One has a Hart and an Art Ross. The other has a Pearson and an Art Ross.

There is no comparable (even remotely) who has peaked this high and has their level of career numbers - especially with one team - and isn't in the HHOF.

It's absurd that this even has to be a discussion.

Well, i don't think anyone has said they should not be in the Hall. But there absolutely should be a discussion. Other players have had Sedin-like peaks and not gotten in.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Well, i don't think anyone has said they should not be in the Hall. But there absolutely should be a discussion. Other players have had Sedin-like peaks and not gotten in.

There are no Art Ross trophy winners that haven't gotten into the Hall. Winning one is basically an entry ticket.

 

[MXD]

Because Makar was the better player of the two and accomplished more.

More like "The Conn Smythe isn't awarded to a player who doesn't make the finals". Whether McDavid was better in 3 rounds than Makar in 4 rounds is irrelevant.

 

[The Panther]

There are no Art Ross trophy winners that haven't gotten into the Hall. Winning one is basically an entry ticket.

Do you think Jamie Benn is a slam-dunk to get in? He won the Art Ross.

Is José Théodore a Hall of Famer? He won the Hart. Also, Tommy Anderson, Al Rollins, Corey Perry, Taylor Hall...

And not all Art Rosses are equal, as you know.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

shanahan 1990 to 1995 (pre-detroit): 39 games, 18 goals, 42 pts

shanahan's entire playoff career outside of detroit: 78 games, 27 goals, 60 pts

tkachuk's entire playoff career: 89 games, 28 goals, 56 pts


don't be stupid

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Do you think Jamie Benn is a slam-dunk to get in? He won the Art Ross.

He won't be a first ballot HoFer because of his long decline, but he was a physically dominant, top-5 winger in the game from 2013-18 or so. He'll get in.

Is José Théodore a Hall of Famer? He won the Hart. Also, Tommy Anderson, Al Rollins, Corey Perry, Taylor Hall...

The Hart trophy is given to the league's MVP, which can sometimes be defined ambiguously and lead to weird outcomes. The Art Ross is given to the league's leading scorer, which is the award I was referring to. It's a much better indicator of superstardom.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Well, i don't think anyone has said they should not be in the Hall. But there absolutely should be a discussion. Other players have had Sedin-like peaks and not gotten in.

Do you think Jamie Benn is a slam-dunk to get in? He won the Art Ross.

Is José Théodore a Hall of Famer? He won the Hart. Also, Tommy Anderson, Al Rollins, Corey Perry, Taylor Hall...

And not all Art Rosses are equal, as you know.

I don’t necessarily think there are too many non-HoFers with Sedin-like peaks. Their Art Rosses aren’t as questionable or circumstantial as Benn’s for instance.

It’s more than likely that a healthier Ovechkin would have beat out Henrik for the 2010 Ross, with his superior p/g, but it’s an impressive Art Ross in that Henrik overcame healthy prime Crosby in points and scoring pace, this despite Daniel missing almost a 4th of the season. Daniel and Crosby both averaged 1.35 points per game.

The next year Daniel’s benefiting from Crosby missing half the season and Ovechkin entering a string of down years in production, but he’s still comfortably ahead of anyone not named Sidney in points per game. He loses the Hart to a late season tear by Corey Perry.

Crosby and Ovechkin both are very arguably top 20 players of all time, and the Sedins looked good going head to head with a couple of their stronger iterations.

Benn’s Ross will always look more questionable, especially when he retires and people will discuss his HoF merits. He didn’t even beat his own teammate Seguin in points per game and likely won the Ross because he peaked, stayed healthy and was consistent as the guys supposed to challenge for scoring trophies battled injury or were bleak versions of themselves at the height of DPE 2.0. His is a Naslund-like peak at best.

 

[quietbruinfan]

Sure. The trouble is, he couldn't even do that because he was a minor league talent and couldn't play in the NHL...that's the problem. Maybe get Roman Cechmanek on the ballot too...? Similar players.

Take it easy with Roman Cechmanek.............

 

[JackSlater]

I don’t necessarily think there are too many non-HoFers with Sedin-like peaks. Their Art Rosses aren’t as questionable or circumstantial as Benn’s for instance.

It’s more than likely that a healthier Ovechkin would have beat out Henrik for the 2010 Ross, with his superior p/g, but it’s an impressive Art Ross in that Henrik overcame healthy prime Crosby in points and scoring pace, this despite Daniel missing almost a 4th of the season. Daniel and Crosby both averaged 1.35 points per game.

The next year Daniel’s benefiting from Crosby missing half the season and Ovechkin entering a string of down years in production, but he’s still comfortably ahead of anyone not named Sidney in points per game. He loses the Hart to a late season tear by Corey Perry.

Crosby and Ovechkin both are very arguably top 20 players of all time, and the Sedins looked good going head to head with some of their strongest iterations.

Benn’s Ross will always look more questionable, especially when he retires and people will discuss his HoF merits. He didn’t even beat his own teammate Seguin in points per game and likely won the Ross because he peaked, stayed healthy and was consistent as the guys supposed to challenge for scoring trophies battled injury or were bleak versions of themselves at the height of DPE 2.0. His is a Naslund-like peak at best.

I don't see why Benn's Art Ross is any more circumstantial than either Sedin Art Ross. Henrik loses that Art Ross if Ovechkin doesn't hurt his knee and lose games to suspension and Daniel loses his if Crosby doesn't get his head knocked off. Benn doesn't have such an obvious situation that benefitted him, though it's quite possible that he loses the Art Ross if Crosby didn't get the mumps. Perhaps Kane might have won that Art Ross if he'd played the full season, but that's a more remote threat than vechkin in 2010 or Crosby in 2011. It's nice that the Sedins playing in a perfect situation could hang with Crosby playing with crap and Ovechkin after he very clearly tumbled from his peak but I suspect that peak Benn could have done the same playing with his perfect linemate plus another really good linemate on an offensive team with favourable usage.

The reference to Henrik's time with Daniel out in 2010 always struck me as odd praise. I believe he was only at a point per game level without his twin brother stapled to his wing. It's still elite to be a point per game player in 2010, but realistically that was his peak in normal circumstances rather than competing with Crosby and Ovechkin for the Art Ross.

None of that means that I question the actual HHOF candidacy of the Sedins though, as their careers made them worthy and they are obvious inductees.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

@JackSlater

Among per game leaders, Crosby played 77 games, Seguin 71, Kane 61, Datsyuk 63 and Malkin 69: the difference between Benn’s 1.06 p/g and theirs is small enough for me to infer that Benn might have been fortunate in terms of having a ton of elite scorers struggling with their health in 2014-15. I don’t think Henrik and, to a lesser extent, Daniel saw anything like that string of hits to the top offensive talent to pave the way for their scoring titles, besides obviously benefiting from Ovechkin then Crosby missing games, and probably Malkin too. Statistically, they separated themselves from other current or future HoFers having strong prime seasons.

This is not to say that I think they are very exceptional inductees based on what I’d personally and generally consider a HoF career (the magical twin thing and their eye catching, if perhaps not world beating hockey, I think make them worthy HoFers as much as anything they achieved as individual talents), but that at their brief but nice peak they certainly put things together to come out looking very strong next to the “non-generational” (hate using that term) offensive talent.

I’m not sure Benn didn’t benefit from playing with a perfect (non-twin) linemate though, for duos of the era Seguin-Benn was pretty near the gold standard.

 

[JackSlater]

@JackSlater

Among per game leaders, Crosby played 77 games, Seguin 71, Kane 61, Datsyuk 63 and Malkin 69: the difference between Benn’s 1.06 p/g and theirs is small enough for me to infer that Benn might have been fortunate in terms of having a ton of elite scorers struggling with their health in 2014-15. I don’t think Henrik and, to a lesser extent, Daniel saw anything like that string of hits to the top offensive talent to pave the way for their scoring titles, besides obviously benefiting from Ovechkin then Crosby missing games, and probably Malkin too. Statistically, they separated themselves from other current or future HoFers having strong prime seasons.

This is not to say that I think they are very exceptional inductees based on what I’d personally and generally consider a HoF career (the magical twin thing and their eye catching, if perhaps not world beating hockey, I think make them worthy HoFers as much as anything they achieved as individual talents), but that at their brief but nice peak they certainly put things together to come out looking very strong next to the “non-generational” (hate using that term) offensive talent.

I’m not sure Benn didn’t benefit from playing with a perfect (non-twin) linemate though, for duos of the era Seguin-Benn was pretty near the gold standard.

While Seguin, a skilled centre with good speed, was a good fit for Benn, it's a far cry from being his actual identical twin with whom he had played for his whole life. As far as competition missing games Benn certainly benefited from that, as we all know that it was a abnormally weak Art Ross win. There still isn't one person who obviously would have won it if not for an injury, as we can see in the case of the Sedins and which makes their wins just as circumstantial, or really more circumstantial, than his.

Of course, I'll always remember that if not for a puck bouncing off his skate to another Dallas player in the final unimportant game of the season he would have lost the Art Ross to Tavares.

 

[ESH]

Both Sedins have a better HOF case than Alfredsson. Only Henrik would make my Hall

Alfredsson:

1x AS-2
Point finishes: 4,7,9
Assist finishes: 8
Goal finishes: 9,9,9

Henrik Sedin:

Hart
Ross
2x AS-1
Point finishes: 1,4,7,10
Assist finishes: 1,1,1,4,4,5,8,8
Goal finishes: none

Daniel Sedin:

Ross
Pearson
Point finishes: 1,8
Assist finishes: 3,3
Goal finishes: 4

I never understand how people can put any distance really between Henrik and Daniel. They basically had the same career, posting similar stats almost every year. Daniel was a little bit worse because of injuries a couple times, but other than that, I don’t see any reason to induct one but not the other.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

What a joke.

All in all possibly the best voting result in a while.

Funny to think these statements can be simultaneously true. If we're going to stay with the "NHL Hall-of-Fame" model (plus add the obligatory female player), this IS one of the better voting results of the last half-dozen plus years. Five of the previous six classes had at least one (sometimes more) clunker(s).

On the other hand, if you take Luongo off the table (and Luongo has a case for top eligible Goaltender not inducted- [not saying I think he is, just that he has a case]), you can look across the pond and find at least two superior players at each of the three Forward positions represented here.