The 2022 Hockey Hall Of Fame

[trentmccleary]

What's the argument for Alfredsson?

Good player, but his resume doesn't stand-out against the upper echelon of HHVG-level players...only two HHOF-worthy regular seasons and a great play-off run. It's not like he was the straw that stirred the drink on the Pizza Line either (all three of those guys were equally good)

These are the players drafted (and MSL) between 1992-2000. Alfredsson doesn't belong among the best of this group?

Here is a quick and dirty way to compare levels of production (PPG) across an entire career. I have put these 1990's drafted forwards (& MSL) in a rough order based on how long they were a high end producer.
[Thornton, Alfredsson, St. Louis, Datsyuk, Iginla, Kariya, Hossa, Zetterberg, D.Sedin, H.Sedin, Elias, Whitney, Lecavalier, B. Richards, Kovalev, Naslund, Marleau, Yashin]

JT	DA	MSL	PD	JI	PK	MH	HZ	DS	HS	PE	RW	VL	BR	AK27	Mnas	PM	AY
1.54	1.34	1.25	1.20	1.34	1.43	1.22	1.23	1.35	1.37	1.18	1.02	1.32	1.14	1.20	1.27	1.05	1.15
1.39	1.27	1.24	1.18	1.20	1.32	1.15	1.10	1.27	1.15	1.15	0.94	1.14	1.11	1.13	1.11	1.01	1.07
1.31	1.13	1.21	1.16	1.17	1.23	1.01	1.08	1.04	1.00	1.00	0.94	0.98	1.07	1.02	1.08	1.01	0.96
1.17	1.04	1.15	1.10	1.09	1.16	1.00	1.07	1.00	0.99	0.99	0.94	0.94	0.96	0.99	1.04	0.93	0.95
1.13	1.04	1.15	1.05	1.05	1.04	0.96	1.04	0.93	0.99	0.96	0.92	0.87	0.93	0.94	0.98	0.89	0.94
1.05	1.03	1.01	1.04	0.92	1.02	0.95	1.00	0.93	0.94	0.92	0.91	0.85	0.86	0.83	0.83	0.85	0.91
1.03	1.01	0.98	1.03	0.90	0.99	0.93	0.95	0.90	0.93	0.83	0.91	0.84	0.85	0.80	0.79	0.78	0.88
1.00	1.00	0.96	0.96	0.89	0.93	0.92	0.95	0.87	0.91	0.82	0.88	0.83	0.84	0.78	0.73	0.71	0.86
0.99	0.94	0.85	0.91	0.84	0.83	0.89	0.86	0.85	0.89	0.81	0.87	0.82	0.80	0.74	0.72	0.70	0.85
0.95	0.93	0.85	0.88	0.82	0.79	0.88	0.84	0.74	0.74	0.77	0.84	0.81	0.76	0.73	0.67	0.70	0.80
0.94	0.91	0.76	0.82	0.82	0.71	0.83	0.83	0.68	0.71	0.75	0.79	0.77	0.76	0.72	0.56	0.65	0.80
0.93	0.82	0.70	0.80	0.82	0.70	0.83	0.70	0.66	0.61	0.74	0.76	0.75	0.74	0.69	0.53	0.64	0.72
0.88	0.79	0.66	0.74	0.78	0.57	0.78	0.68	0.64	0.61	0.70	0.74	0.54	0.62	0.64	0.45	0.62	_
0.83	0.74	0.51	0.50	0.75	_	0.74	0.61	0.54	0.55	0.68	0.73	0.49	0.49	0.64	0.15	0.59	_
0.83	0.72	0.32	_	0.72	_	0.72	0.56	0.45	0.50	0.50	0.68	0.37	0.41	0.58	_	0.57	_
0.77	0.57	0.15	_	0.62	_	0.62	_	0.41	0.44	0.49	0.66	0.35	_	0.58	_	0.56	_
0.74	0.57	_	_	0.61	_	0.52	_	0.39	0.35	_	0.64	0.34	_	0.58	_	0.56	_
0.63	0.55	_	_	0.57	_	0.50	_	_	_	_	0.64	_	_	0.46	_	0.56	_
0.51	_	_	_	0.46	_	_	_	_	_	_	0.46	_	_	_	_	_	_
0.13	_	_	_	0.34	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_

 

[GMR]

The Sedins over Zetterberg leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Zetterberg had a better PPG. Also, a MUCH better playoff performer and two-way player.

 

[overpass]

What's the argument for Alfredsson?

Good player, but his resume doesn't stand-out against the upper echelon of HHVG-level players...only two HHOF-worthy regular seasons and a great play-off run. It's not like he was the straw that stirred the drink on the Pizza Line either (all three of those guys were equally good)

Alfredsson was the straw that stirred the drink on the Pizza line though. Spezza and Heatley may have had as much offensive skill, but Alfredsson was a two-way player and was also better at adapting his offensive game to match his linemates. When he was added to the line, it went from a good first line to the best in the league.

The trio had a ton of skill, but not every group of skilled forwards really clicks together. It’s not every team that can just put their three best forwards on a line and get the most out of them. Alfredsson was the reason that line worked so well together. He lifted his linemates to another level by setting the tone, and also filled in what they were lacking.

 

[GMR]

I bet if they had been eligible the same year Zetterberg would've been inducted first

Then they should get inducted as one person; they basically are anyway. Neither was better than Zetterberg.

 

[FMichael]

Who are your choices?

For me personally...

Osgood, Zetterberg, and Roenick.

 

[GMR]

For me personally...

Osgood, Zetterberg, and Roenick.

Osgood isn't making the HOF ahead of Luongo, Barrasso, or Joseph. Nor should he.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Then they should get inducted as one person; they basically are anyway. Neither was better than Zetterberg.

My post was meant to be in reference to Alfredsson, not the Sedins (see the post I was responding to). I typed they instead of he on accident, fixed now.

Either way, I have Zetterberg over all 3 of them.

 

[GMR]

My quote was meant to be in reference to Alfredsson, not the Sedins (see the post I was responding to). I typed they instead of he on accident, fixed now.

Either way, I have Zetterberg over all 3 of them.

I think Alfredsson was better than the Sedins. Better numbers and a more dangerous player offensively.

 

[seventieslord]

I think Alfredsson was better than the Sedins. Better numbers and a more dangerous player offensively.

And Zetterberg better then all three. The HOH top 200 voting panel seemed to emphatically agree, too.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I think Alfredsson was better than the Sedins. Better numbers and a more dangerous player offensively.

We seem to be in agreement. My post from before the inductees were announced:

Who I would vote in myself this year:
Mikhailov, Zetterberg, Elias, Alfredsson

Who I think will get voted in this year:
Zetterberg, H. Sedin, D. Sedin, either Alfredsson or Luongo as the 4th, both have a story line (all Swedish class or the 3 Canucks class)

 

[FMichael]

Osgood isn't making the HOF ahead of Luongo, Barrasso, or Joseph. Nor should he.

I'm gonna start calling you 'Fredo' from now on..."Don't ever take sides with anyone against the family".

 

[Neutrinos]

The thing about the Sedins is that they're more than just counting numbers and awards (and they should be in on that basis anyway).

They gave the sport something it had never seen before and likely never will again. They changed the game, and some of the stuff they pioneered - especially the slap-pass - is now commonplace. They took the cycle to an art form. They were unique and special and even if their careers don't look that different on paper from Patrik Elias, they were more than that and meant more than that to the sport.

It's a cool story that they're twins, and I was disappointed Daniel didn't win the Hart in 2011 because he was as deserving as any other player, and having twins win back-to-back MVP awards is something that would likely never have been duplicated again in pro sports. With that said, I don't think they should be inducted into the Hall Of Fame at the expense of a more deserving candidate like Pierre Turgeon

Adjusted for era:
Henrik = 272 goals, 1181 points in 1330 games (.89 PPG)
Daniel = 442 goals, 1154 points in 1306 games (.88 PPG)
Turgeon = 517 goals, 1315 points in 1294 games (1.02 PPG)

Number of adjusted scoring seasons averaging at least a PPG:
Henrik = 7 (I'm giving credit for 2 seasons he was very close with 81 in 82 games, and 80 in 82 games)
Daniel = 7 (I'm giving credit for 1 season he was very close with 80 in 82 games)
Turgeon = 10

Art Ross seasons vs Turgeon's peak season adjusted for era:
Henrik = 32 goals, 119 points in 80 games (1.45 PPG)
Daniel = 45 goals, 113 points in 82 games (1.39 PPG)
Turgeon = 47 goals, 106 points in 83 games (1.28 PPG)

However, for additional context it should be noted that Turgeon was his team's lone all-star during his peak season, and he lead the Islanders in scoring by 45 points that year

Turgeon put up a 1.28 adjusted PPG average while the next best adjusted scoring average was .89 by Steve Thomas, followed by Benoit Hogue with .87

That's a difference of 32 adj. points per 82 games between Turgeon and Thomas

For comparison sake, Daniel averaged 1.44 PPG during Henrik's Art Ross season
And Henrik averaged 1.23 PPG during Daniel's Art Ross season

It should also be noted neither Henrik or Daniel lead the league in points-per-game during their Art Ross seasons, and, in fact, the difference between them and the leader was considerable, so if not for injuries to Ovechkin and Crosby, it's unlikely either of them would have won theirs

Turgeon once finished 3rd in PPG (tied with Bure)


So, Turgeon had the more productive career, a longer, more productive prime, and the difference in their respective peaks is negligible

But Turgeon has been eligible for more than decade without receiving the call, while the Sedins get in during their 1st year of eligibility...

That's not right

 

[overpass]

I want to say a bit more about the career of Daniel Alfredsson. We’ve seen the stats posted, that he was one of the best offensive producers of his generation. But he was a lot more than than just a scorer.

As far as I can remember, Alfredsson made every linemate he ever played with better. Right from his first season to his final season, I don’t think there was any player he didn’t click with. As a result of this, his coaches often used him to carry a second line instead of getting to play with the other top forwards. Alfredsson made so many second line centres look good. Vinny Prospal, Todd White, Bryan Smolinski, Mike Fisher, Kyle Turris, among others. As a playmaker, he could turn checking centres into goal scorers, while still scoring goals himself.

When he got to play with Spezza and Heatley, he was right up there with the league leaders offensively. And, like I said before, he really tied the line together.

Alfredsson played several positions on the power play and played them all very well. He played right point when the Sens were stacked at RW, and they had the best PP in the league. He was a half wall playmaker from the right side. When Spezza took over his spot on the right half wall, Alfredsson moved to the left side and used his one-timer as a finisher. Many other top offensive forwards have struggled to contribute when moved out of their comfort zone on the PP - for example, his former linemate Dany Heatley failed to contribute when coaches tried moving him away from the net.

He was also a valuable contributor on the penalty kill. At 5-on-4, he usually skated on the second unit and was a dangerous SH scorer in that role. But he was also used in a purely defensive role as the coach’s first choice to be the forward defending a 5-on-3.

And then there’s everything Alfredsson means to the modern Ottawa Senators franchise. Longtime captain, great in the community, and everything he did on the ice. While the team underachieved at times in his captaincy, I don’t think he had a lot of leadership to back him up either, it’s too much to put on one man.

 

[MXD]

I thought Zetterberg would've been a slightly better pick than Alfredsson but Alfie isn't a stupid pick either. Zetterberg can wait. Alfie had been waiting. All in all possibly the best voting result in a while.

 

[GMR]

If there was only one Sedin, does that player get inducted first ballot?

It's beyond silly to induct them because they were twins. Each player must be viewed on his own merit.

 

[K Fleur]

...so Saku Koivu is a lock, then??...

Absolutely not.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

If there was only one Sedin, does that player get inducted first ballot?

It's beyond silly to induct them because they were twins. Each player must be viewed on his own merit.

What is this in response to? Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall anyone saying they should be inducted because they’re twins

 

[jigglysquishy]

If there was only one Sedin, does that player get inducted first ballot?

It's beyond silly to induct them because they were twins. Each player must be viewed on his own merit.

I don't think any voters care about first ballot. It's not a real thing like it is in baseball.

It was entirely unheard of 10 years ago, and even now is mostly limited to young Americans.

 

[GMR]

What is this in response to? Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall anyone saying they should be inducted because they’re twins

Several have suggested the feelgood story of the twins getting in together contributed to their "both" being inducted. I personally don't believe either Sedin makes it first ballot with the same exact career, minus a twin brother.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Look, I do understand the decision so I’m not going to throw a complete hissy fit over it, but I also can’t make full sense of it.

I view Zetterberg and Alfredsson as fairly similar level players. That’s probably fair right? With that in mind, which duo would you take over the course of their careers: Zetterberg and Alfredsson or the Sedins?

Personally I don’t even think it’s a difficult decision. In fact, as duos, Zetterberg and Alfredsson dominate the Sedins in terms of career regular season points per game, playoff points per game, and Olympic points per game.

And while the Sedins had the undeniably impressive award winning seasons, would you still take them over a duo of peak Zetterberg (08) and Alfredsson (07)?

So taking everything into consideration: career, peak, playoffs, etc… It’s difficult.

But I get it and Zetterberg will eventually get in so it is what it is.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Alfredsson is easily the most important person in the history of the modern Ottawa Senators. Again, he matters.

Yashin was a better player imo, and played a much more important position.

 

[MS]

Yashin was a better player imo, and played a much more important position.

They're pretty close, and that does nothing to argue my previous post. And in terms of peak value, that's Erik Karlsson anyway.

Daniel Alfredsson is the most important Ottawa Senator ever. He is the most beloved Ottawa Senator ever. And it isn't close to #2.

He has 100 playoff points as a Senator to Yashin's 15.

 

[Strong Hearts]

The Sedins with their induction become the first NHL players born in the 1980s to be inducted.

 

[Ishdul]

I don't think any voters care about first ballot. It's not a real thing like it is in baseball.

It was entirely unheard of 10 years ago, and even now is mostly limited to young Americans.

Yeah, if you look at who they put in historically there are a lot of guys who would traditionally be seen as borderline (or at least not the classic inner circle, no doubt hall of famer) who got in right away. The time you were seen as eligible was always a bit open to interpretation because it wasn't always clear when a player was retired/had played his last game.

It should also be noted that while the Sedins were supposed to have been eligible last year until the entire HHOF 2021 class got cancelled. So even if you're a voter and you care about that specific thing you could still say that they had to wait a year.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Several have suggested the feelgood story of the twins getting in together contributed to their "both" being inducted. I personally don't believe either Sedin makes it first ballot with the same exact career, minus a twin brother.

If they weren't twins, but just long term teammates, I think they would still get a lot out of credit for the leadership (both team and community), being longtime faces of the franchise, gentlemanly play/conduct, etc. The HHOF seems to place value on that kind of thing. Being in a big market doesn't hurt either.

The best hypothetical I can think of would be if Thornton-Marleau were more even as players (i.e. Thornton a lot worse and Marleau better), and they spent their whole careers in San Jose. I could see that duo getting inducted.