Player Discussion Thatcher Demko

[Breakers]

Impressive stuff. Out of curiosity, what was Markstrom listed at? Both last season and this season.

I don’t have access to Markstrom but he wasn’t listed on either this season.

the only side note.
Both said Demko was very impressive
But both models say Vancouver is way worse defensively than any public model states

so in a way that it’s like a backhanded compliment
Demko was amazing
And your team has zero clue how to play defense.

 

[RandV]

Not to take anything away from Demko but I would imagine that good goalie + tire fire defense = extra high analytic score.

 

[Zippgunn]

Demko seemed very emotional in his plea to management to resign Clarke. If management decides to let our star goaltending coach go, you got to think it will severely piss off our starting goaltender, and just add to the domino effect of disastrous decisions made by upper management. Demko will probably be added to the list of players who want out.

Aquillini better think wisely on this decision, or Brayden Holtby just might very well be the Canucks full time starter.

Just when you think things couldn't get any worse.....

It can.

Demko is from Cali which means that there are at least 3 teams that he would rather play for. It seems to me that management is bending over backwards to ensure he is happy and is the team's definite #1 goalie who gets sheltered starts whenever possible and is being provided with everything he needs to keep him here. Not re-signing Clark would be a huge mistake not only because it would make our super goalie unhappy but because he just maybe might regress like every other Clark coached goalie has when he is removed from their orbit. 5 years is a long time and literally anything can happen; this contract could be a steal or it could be Eriksson v 2.0. Should be fun to watch.

 

[TraderJim]

Not to take anything away from Demko but I would imagine that good goalie + tire fire defense = extra high analytic score.

Yeah, Luongos numbers with 35+ shots were amazing. It was when he faced 25 or under is when his numbers took a hit. Goaltending gets judged way too much on individual numbers.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Demko seemed very emotional in his plea to management to resign Clarke. If management decides to let our star goaltending coach go, you got to think it will severely piss off our starting goaltender, and just add to the domino effect of disastrous decisions made by upper management. Demko will probably be added to the list of players who want out.

Aquillini better think wisely on this decision, or Brayden Holtby just might very well be the Canucks full time starter.

Just when you think things couldn't get any worse.....

It can.

I dont remember seeing this in hockey.

The players are so openly asking for stuff from the management through media.

Again. Imagine if we are this depressed as fans, how f***in horrible it is on the team, when they see all these horrid moves that just move them further and further away from cup contention.

 

[VanJack]

Watching that fast moving train-wreck (for the Oilers) last night in Winnipeg, makes you appreciate what the Canucks have in Demko.

The Oil may have the two best forwards on the planet, but in goal, comparing 39-year old Mike Smith with Connor Hellebucyk isn't fair.

If Mikey DiPietro can morph into a reliable backup who can step up and play 30 or so games a season, the Canucks are set between the pipes for the next decade.

It's something to build on.

 

[AppleHoneySauce]

Watching that fast moving train-wreck (for the Oilers) last night in Winnipeg, makes you appreciate what the Canucks have in Demko.

The Oil may have the two best forwards on the planet, but in goal, comparing 39-year old Mike Smith with Connor Hellebucyk isn't fair.

If Mikey DiPietro can morph into a reliable backup who can step up and play 30 or so games a season, the Canucks are set between the pipes for the next decade.

It's something to build on.

Did we beat mike smith at all this season? I feel like we literally only won games Koskinen started.

 

[geebster]

Did we beat mike smith at all this season? I feel like we literally only won games Koskinen started.

For a team with a young core, Demko is undoubtedly a better option than Mike Smith even if Smith was good this year. Having a goalie that will be there for most of the time that your best players will be in their prime is better than a 39 year old having an up year.

 

[Siludin]

Yeah, Luongos numbers with 35+ shots were amazing. It was when he faced 25 or under is when his numbers took a hit. Goaltending gets judged way too much on individual numbers.

Goaltending analytics have improved a lot. There are ways to parse quality chances, break-aways, late-game saves, down-by-a-goal etc. Lots of valuable info in goalie stats if you filter them the right way. Markstrom looked good in these critical areas last year with the Canucks.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

"Hide the pain Demko"

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

His design is easily the best of that new player design series. Love Petey and Hughes, but their designs this go round are...lacklustre.

You can tell Demko has a lot more experience with picking artistic designs (comes with the territory when picking goalie masks).

 

[F A N]

Yeah, Luongos numbers with 35+ shots were amazing. It was when he faced 25 or under is when his numbers took a hit. Goaltending gets judged way too much on individual numbers.

Not everyone can be Martin Brodeur. Most goalies do better facing more shots in a game. Luongo in his prime definitely had the stamina to routinely save 40+ shots a game.

 

[sting101]

Always thought instead of measuring high danger areas they could just use a weak goal stat to represent the amount of costly mistakes by keepers. Of course it would be highly subjective and would require a guy like Mossey to be able to identify the flaw in the first place vs the odds he should have had it. I'm sure teams track this individually.

The reason low shot totals are very often an omen to goalies is that quite often they come as odd man rushes when a team is being outplayed territorially and get over committed trying to score. Moving a puck around a 4 or 5 man defense and getting shots is very different than a 2 on 1 or 3 on 2 when they can isolate the goalie much better and often have a close distance to net to shoot from or an open rebound.

Off topic i know but would love if advanced stats could track a last player in possession stat before a change of possession as well. A sort of unforced error stat that would be much more scrutinous than the current turnover criteria they use and include getting bumped off pucks.

Seems like an easy stat that would show just how tremendously poor someone like Gudbranson was at keeping possession. And like above it could come with an out for not having time to make a play in the first place and good dump ins and dump outs.

Anyway look forward to growth in the analytic field as some of the over emphasis of shot generation vs possession and transport success can be improved as well as the nuanced goalie stats that are available.

 

[MS]

The reason low shot totals are very often an omen to goalies is that quite often they come as odd man rushes when a team is being outplayed territorially and get over committed trying to score. Moving a puck around a 4 or 5 man defense and getting shots is very different than a 2 on 1 or 3 on 2 when they can isolate the goalie much better and often have a close distance to net to shoot from or an open rebound.

This isn't borne out by the numbers.

Teams with SOG totals allowed tend to have higher save %s.

Bad defensive teams tend to allow both more shots and more quality chances.

The top 4 teams in save % last year were also top-10 in fewest shots allowed.

This seems to be a lingering example of the 'Cloutier defense' where he'd allow 3 goals on 18 shots 'but they were tough shots!'.

 

[Zippgunn]

Watching that fast moving train-wreck (for the Oilers) last night in Winnipeg, makes you appreciate what the Canucks have in Demko.

The Oil may have the two best forwards on the planet, but in goal, comparing 39-year old Mike Smith with Connor Hellebucyk isn't fair.

If Mikey DiPietro can morph into a reliable backup who can step up and play 30 or so games a season, the Canucks are set between the pipes for the next decade.

It's something to build on.

Comparing Connor Helleucyk to 33 year old Carey price isn't fair either...

 

[AppleHoneySauce]

"Hide the pain Demko"

Kinda looks like he S**t himself, Tooted or is about to do either.

 

[HockeyWooot]

Shout out to Demko. Amazing goalie just hitting his prime.

I do wonder if we get our defence to passable levels, will he get Vezina consideration in the next 2-3 years?

 

[tantalum]

This isn't borne out by the numbers.

Teams with SOG totals allowed tend to have higher save %s.

Bad defensive teams tend to allow both more shots and more quality chances.

The top 4 teams in save % last year were also top-10 in fewest shots allowed.

This seems to be a lingering example of the 'Cloutier defense' where he'd allow 3 goals on 18 shots 'but they were tough shots!'.

Yep. It's a pretty solid correlation of more shots against = more chances and more quality chances against. I haven't charted that for a few years but I suspect it still holds. This is one of those things where coaches through the ages have actually been correct on...you limit shots and you are going to limit chances. Which of course makes sense as tracking scoring chances is something that has been done for ages...the way it's done now has changed and gotten more nuanced but it's always something a coaching staff looked at in for a game. You limit those chances through possession play and sound defensive schemes.

Yes you get outlier games where you didn't give up much but they all happened to be great chances. But over 82 games it all normalizes. It's also not some sort of strange coincidence that once you get down to the final 8 or 4 teams in the playoffs you are normally looking at the better defensive and possession teams.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Demko is this team’s messiah. I think he gets the team MVP award if the team can make the playoffs.

 

[VanJack]

No doubt that Benning and the Canucks made the right call on Markstrom.....Demko was actually a better goalie last season, despite the Canucks well-publicized defensive struggles.

And at 25, he's just coming into his prime as an NHL goalie. Hope he can stay healthy though. If they're forced to use Halak for any stretch of games, it's hard to see him faring much better than Holtby did.

 

[Luck 6]

No doubt that Benning and the Canucks made the right call on Markstrom.....Demko was actually a better goalie last season, despite the Canucks well-publicized defensive struggles.

And at 25, he's just coming into his prime as an NHL goalie. Hope he can stay healthy though. If they're forced to use Halak for any stretch of games, it's hard to see him faring much better than Holtby did.

No doubt… I haven’t seen the blind Benning haters complaining about Markstrom much lately…

 

[bandwagonesque]

No doubt… I haven’t seen the blind Benning haters complaining about Markstrom much lately…

I think the usual fallback positions still apply whether Markstrom was successful after leaving or not, namely:

1) The Canucks should have traded their Vezina-calibre starter in the middle of a playoff race and recouped assets, although no team has ever done this, and:

2) Once the team decided to go with Demko they might as well have signed an equally inexperienced backup because a far better team in Washington did that once and got only slightly below average goaltending.

 

[Hodgy]

I think the usual fallback positions still apply whether Markstrom was successful after leaving or not, namely:

1) The Canucks should have traded their Vezina-calibre starter in the middle of a playoff race and recouped assets, although no team has ever done this, and:

2) Once the team decided to go with Demko they might as well have signed an equally inexperienced backup because a far better team in Washington did that once and got only slightly below average goaltending.

The Canucks definitely could have managed their goalies better. For example, if they had have given more starts to Demko in the preceding year or so then perhaps they would have had more confidence in him and traded Markstrom at the deadline. While you say no team has ever done this before, this isn’t really accurate as Tampa Bay traded Bishop in favour of Vasilevsky in what was relatively similar circumstances.

 

[hellstick]

No doubt… I haven’t seen the blind Benning haters complaining about Markstrom much lately…

I think most people understood there was a large chance of losing Markstrom. But a couple of things you're "blindly" ignoring here.

1) Markstrom had been our team MVP for two seasons prior to him leaving as a UFA. Of course we would be upset if we lost him.

2) Demko's coming out party was the series against Vegas. If some of us were upset to lose Markstrom (I was) at least we could understand the decision and be comfortable with it.

3) The optics of losing everyone in an offseason. From Tanev to Toffoli and Marky - all we had to show for it was a signed Virtanen, an expensive Holtby, and Schmidt. You can trace this failing back to awful cap management.

 

[sting101]

I think most people understood there was a large chance of losing Markstrom. But a couple of things you're "blindly" ignoring here.

1) Markstrom had been our team MVP for two seasons prior to him leaving as a UFA. Of course we would be upset if we lost him.

2) Demko's coming out party was the series against Vegas. If some of us were upset to lose Markstrom (I was) at least we could understand the decision and be comfortable with it.

3) The optics of losing everyone in an offseason. From Tanev to Toffoli and Marky - all we had to show for it was a signed Virtanen, an expensive Holtby, and Schmidt. You can trace this failing back to awful cap management.

There has been a lot of correlation between the fans who have been calling this team terrible and being upset about Markstrom.

The decision had to be made MVP or not. 31yr old who wasn't near the best players ages and would be in his mid 30s by the time the group could compete vs one that was tracking to be as good or better and met the age criteria? In a perfect world without expansion protection we could walk it down the line to take away risk. But it wasn't an option Marky made sure of that. It's an important distinction

Demko has always been a premier prospect. His draft year many thought he was a top15 pick prospect and the best goalie in the draft. His play in BC and Utica had done nothing to dissuade this and by the time he DemKO'd Vegas it was simply a no brainer.

Making poor decisions due to overall optics is not a good reason to support poor decisions. The decision for Demko will prove to be the right one. Thatcher Demko is gonna be one of the best goalies in the NHL at the perfect time for our core