Player Discussion Thatcher Demko

[strattonius]

There has been a lot of correlation between the fans who have been calling this team terrible and being upset about Markstrom.

The decision had to be made MVP or not. 31yr old who wasn't near the best players ages and would be in his mid 30s by the time the group could compete vs one that was tracking to be as good or better and met the age criteria? In a perfect world without expansion protection we could walk it down the line to take away risk. But it wasn't an option Marky made sure of that. It's an important distinction

Demko has always been a premier prospect. His draft year many thought he was a top15 pick prospect and the best goalie in the draft. His play in BC and Utica had done nothing to dissuade this and by the time he DemKO'd Vegas it was simply a no brainer.

Making poor decisions due to overall optics is not a good reason to support poor decisions. The decision for Demko will prove to be the right one. Thatcher Demko is gonna be one of the best goalies in the NHL at the perfect time for our core

That's optimistic of you about Demko, although he's certainly trending that way. The issue is that goaltenders have strange developmental curves and so his play could easily Carter Hart as well with the defense we have.

I definitely do not agree the decision to stick with Demko was a no-brainer. Anyone who made that decision based off 1 playoff series with Vegas hasn't observed the tenuous nature of the goaltender position very closely over the last 20 years of the NHL.

 

[Zippgunn]

The hyperbole regarding Demko is insane. I think he's a pretty good goalie who has been sheltered a lot thus far. If he doesn't take the next step we are in deep trouble. Should be interesting to watch this season but I remain skeptical. I also sincerely hope I'm wrong...

 

[sting101]

That's optimistic of you about Demko, although he's certainly trending that way. The issue is that goaltenders have strange developmental curves and so his play could easily Carter Hart as well with the defense we have.

I definitely do not agree the decision to stick with Demko was a no-brainer. Anyone who made that decision based off 1 playoff series with Vegas hasn't observed the tenuous nature of the goaltender position very closely over the last 20 years of the NHL.

His development path led to the smart bet being a top flight goalie and nothing has shown otherwise. Obviously having a guy like Ian Clark being able to assess his value and upside is part of the process. Being a skeptical fan is not an analysis and of course things can happen (Carter Hart) but what has he ever done to make you think he wasn't capable of being a upper echelon #1?

When you consider that signing Markstrom came with the acknowledgement you would have to trade Demko and by the time fans were back in the buildings you would be looking at a 32 almost 33yr old goalie with bad knees as "the man" i thought it was a no brainer.

The hyperbole regarding Demko is insane. I think he's a pretty good goalie who has been sheltered a lot thus far. If he doesn't take the next step we are in deep trouble. Should be interesting to watch this season but I remain skeptical. I also sincerely hope I'm wrong...

Interesting take on the Canuck defense of the last couple years?

 

[Hit the post]

There has been a lot of correlation between the fans who have been calling this team terrible and being upset about Markstrom.

The decision had to be made MVP or not. 31yr old who wasn't near the best players ages and would be in his mid 30s by the time the group could compete vs one that was tracking to be as good or better and met the age criteria? In a perfect world without expansion protection we could walk it down the line to take away risk. But it wasn't an option Marky made sure of that. It's an important distinction

Demko has always been a premier prospect. His draft year many thought he was a top15 pick prospect and the best goalie in the draft. His play in BC and Utica had done nothing to dissuade this and by the time he DemKO'd Vegas it was simply a no brainer.

Making poor decisions due to overall optics is not a good reason to support poor decisions. The decision for Demko will prove to be the right one. Thatcher Demko is gonna be one of the best goalies in the NHL at the perfect time for our core

Ironically OEL is 30 years old (same as age when Markstrom was kicked to the curb).

Letting him walk for nothing is an issue (if you knew you were going with Demko, then get what you can for Markstrom but that requires planning).

 

[strattonius]

His development path led to the smart bet being a top flight goalie and nothing has shown otherwise. Obviously having a guy like Ian Clark being able to assess his value and upside is part of the process. Being a skeptical fan is not an analysis and of course things can happen (Carter Hart) but what has he ever done to make you think he wasn't capable of being a upper echelon #1?

When you consider that signing Markstrom came with the acknowledgement you would have to trade Demko and by the time fans were back in the buildings you would be looking at a 32 almost 33yr old goalie with bad knees as "the man" i thought it was a no brainer.

It has nothing to do with being a skeptical fan. Goaltenders have unpredictable development curves and it's never a sure thing. It's a fickle position....historically. so about 35 games and a hot series against Vegas is definitely not a 'no brainer' decision. It's actually a little arrogant to insinuate it.

I recall a poll for keeping or trading Demko was pretty split.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Ironically OEL is 30 years old (same as age when Markstrom was kicked to the curb).

Letting him walk for nothing is an issue (if you knew you were going with Demko, then get what you can for Markstrom but that requires planning).

Demko sold himself with his great performance during the 2020 playoffs...Yet, Dim Jim didn't have the foresight to know this was going to happen at the TDL...months before..?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

There has been a lot of correlation between the fans who have been calling this team terrible and being upset about Markstrom.

The decision had to be made MVP or not. 31yr old who wasn't near the best players ages and would be in his mid 30s by the time the group could compete vs one that was tracking to be as good or better and met the age criteria? In a perfect world without expansion protection we could walk it down the line to take away risk. But it wasn't an option Marky made sure of that. It's an important distinction

Demko has always been a premier prospect. His draft year many thought he was a top15 pick prospect and the best goalie in the draft. His play in BC and Utica had done nothing to dissuade this and by the time he DemKO'd Vegas it was simply a no brainer.

Making poor decisions due to overall optics is not a good reason to support poor decisions. The decision for Demko will prove to be the right one. Thatcher Demko is gonna be one of the best goalies in the NHL at the perfect time for our core

re bolded: The time the group can compete is supposed to be right now, remember? They've spent the last three years trading away draft picks for right now pieces. I've seen more than a couple of people around here saying: "Oh, you can't tank forever, all the players are getting older, they have to go for it sometime, blah blah blah."

They couldn't get assets for Markstrom because he was the MVP and people would be mad because the team was trying to make a playoff run...but it's okay to watch him go for nothing immediately after because he's going to be too old when the group could compete? Which is it?

 

[sting101]

It has nothing to do with being a skeptical fan. Goaltenders have unpredictable development curves and it's never a sure thing. It's a fickle position....historically. so about 35 games and a hot series against Vegas is definitely not a 'no brainer' decision. It's actually a little arrogant to insinuate it.

I recall a poll for keeping or trading Demko was pretty split.

Whats more fickle a goalie with a history of knee injuries turning 33 during the next full season with fans or a stud who has destroyed every level will be in his prime soon and has shown the ability to be an impact NHL starter with one of the best goalie coaches giving his approval. What makes you think Marky is a sure bet to age well? Lots of 30 something goalies fall off cliffs.

There is risk both ways but when you have 6yrs between them and a raw young core i know which way i'm choosing.

 

[sting101]

Ironically OEL is 30 years old (same as age when Markstrom was kicked to the curb).

Letting him walk for nothing is an issue (if you knew you were going with Demko, then get what you can for Markstrom but that requires planning).

Playoff teams dont usually trade their starters? And they tried negotiating a deal where they could keep both right up to free agency. Marky wasn't gonna have it and was gonna force them to move Demko. Shit happens....it was the right call.

OEL is of no relevance to making a decision of Markstrom or Demko

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

re bolded: The time the group can compete is supposed to be right now, remember? They've spent the last three years trading away draft picks for right now pieces. I've seen more than a couple of people around here saying: "Oh, you can't tank forever, all the players are getting older, they have to go for it sometime, blah blah blah."

They couldn't get assets for Markstrom because he was the MVP and people would be mad because the team was trying to make a playoff run...but it's okay to watch him go for nothing immediately after because he's going to be too old when the group could compete? Which is it?

I can just imagine the look on the players faces when they are being told at the 2020 TDL (team was 33-22-6 at the time)...that their MVP has been traded...?

That would be the biggest kick in the balls to the entire squad..You would have a hard time enticing any player to come here after that.

 

[sting101]

re bolded: The time the group can compete is supposed to be right now, remember? They've spent the last three years trading away draft picks for right now pieces. I've seen more than a couple of people around here saying: "Oh, you can't tank forever, all the players are getting older, they have to go for it sometime, blah blah blah."

They couldn't get assets for Markstrom because he was the MVP and people would be mad because the team was trying to make a playoff run...but it's okay to watch him go for nothing immediately after because he's going to be too old when the group could compete? Which is it?

I get that people want to make this about management flip flopping but the reality is they tried to keep Markstrom AND Demko but Marky forced their hands when he wouldn't give them the flexibility to choose with the expansion draft impending.

At that point you had to assess whether Markstrom at 32/33 was gonna be the guy you wanted to emerge out of the pandemic with or the kid they had groomed and was looking like he could be a difference maker. It came with risk and it still may look bad as the other poster i was discussing this with said.... goalies are fickle. If you have conviction and believe in your coaches, scouts and the player then it made sense to move on rather than be pushed around by a player and his agent.

30 plus goalies can crater just as fast as a Carter Hart can. Marky has a history, he had development issues and had a certain rep before he became laser focused. He also has knee issues worth considering. I mean Demko only played because he couldn't go for the 2nd time in the last months of his career as a Canuck

 

[strattonius]

Whats more fickle a goalie with a history of knee injuries turning 33 during the next full season with fans or a stud who has destroyed every level will be in his prime soon and has shown the ability to be an impact NHL starter with one of the best goalie coaches giving his approval. What makes you think Marky is a sure bet to age well? Lots of 30 something goalies fall off cliffs.

There is risk both ways but when you have 6yrs between them and a raw young core i know which way i'm choosing.

It's moot anyways because as of right now it's turned out to be the unanimously correct decision.

You're glossing over my point though. If Demko struggles next year and Markstrom returns to the caliber goalie he can be, does your tune change? I'm just trying to say the decision wasn't as cut and dry as you make it sound.

 

[sting101]

It's moot anyways because as of right now it's turned out to be the unanimously correct decision.

You're glossing over my point though. If Demko struggles next year and Markstrom returns to the caliber goalie he can be, does your tune change? I'm just trying to say the decision wasn't as cut and dry as you make it sound.

i think it's fair to say it was a polarizing and tough decision given Marky had provided top5-10 goaltending and become a fan favorite. I know i didn't like to have to decide

It really sucks they were forced to make the decision due to expansion protection but once it was clear Marky's camp was forcing a pick a guy scenario i do feel it was much better to have the best you can get from Demko's prime ages vs the 32 to 37yrs of Markstrom a draft pick and watching Demko possibly be the same guy they watched against Vegas for another team.

I think i'm more skeptical of Markstroms and Tanevs long term health than most here. So far both have done extremely well. I'm curious what a 82 game schedule will bring for them.

And i have been a huge Demko supporter going back to his draft. Feel his upside is huge. Dominant at every level coming in and is a huge student of the details. I think he has the potential to be a special player

 

[Hit the post]

….

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I can just imagine the look on the players faces when they are being told at the 2020 TDL (team was 33-22-6 at the time)...that their MVP has been traded...?

That would be the biggest kick in the balls to the entire squad..You would have a hard time enticing any player to come here after that.

I get that people want to make this about management flip flopping but the reality is they tried to keep Markstrom AND Demko but Marky forced their hands when he wouldn't give them the flexibility to choose with the expansion draft impending.

At that point you had to assess whether Markstrom at 32/33 was gonna be the guy you wanted to emerge out of the pandemic with or the kid they had groomed and was looking like he could be a difference maker. It came with risk and it still may look bad as the other poster i was discussing this with said.... goalies are fickle. If you have conviction and believe in your coaches, scouts and the player then it made sense to move on rather than be pushed around by a player and his agent.

30 plus goalies can crater just as fast as a Carter Hart can. Marky has a history, he had development issues and had a certain rep before he became laser focused. He also has knee issues worth considering. I mean Demko only played because he couldn't go for the 2nd time in the last months of his career as a Canuck

And you both completely ignored my point.

Why would it have been a massive kick in the balls to trade the MVP, but not to watch that MVP walk for nothing immediately after the season? Again, Benning is busily trading away all the team's draft picks because the team is meant to win *right now*, and it's been like that since Markstrom's last season here. Not down the line, not when he's 35, right now.

And it's worth mentioning for about the millionth time on this board, but the main issue people had wasn't choosing to roll with Demko over Markstrom, it was how they immediately took most of the money they would have been paying Markstrom and gave it to a guy who had basically already reached the worst case scenario of what Markstrom could have become had they chosen to keep him.

 

[strattonius]

And you both completely ignored my point.

Why would it have been a massive kick in the balls to trade the MVP, but not to watch that MVP walk for nothing immediately after the season? Again, Benning is busily trading away all the team's draft picks because the team is meant to win *right now*, and it's been like that since Markstrom's last season here. Not down the line, not when he's 35, right now.

And it's worth mentioning for about the millionth time on this board, but the main issue people had wasn't choosing to roll with Demko over Markstrom, it was how they immediately took most of the money they would have been paying Markstrom and gave it to a guy who had basically already reached the worst case scenario of what Markstrom could have become had they chosen to keep him.

It's a weird psychology to the locker room to trade your best player in a playoff push.

I get that he walked anyways after the playoffs and the locker was shook but to expect Benning to have traded Markstrom at the time is captain hindsight.

 

[tyhee]

No doubt that Benning and the Canucks made the right call on Markstrom.....Demko was actually a better goalie last season, despite the Canucks well-publicized defensive struggles.

And at 25, he's just coming into his prime as an NHL goalie. Hope he can stay healthy though. If they're forced to use Halak for any stretch of games, it's hard to see him faring much better than Holtby did.

First of all, I agree that the Canucks made the right call on Markstrom at the time of Free Agent Frenzy. I thought that at the time as well. I won't argue about whether they should have gotten assets for Markstrom. It would have been a gutsy move, giving priority to the future at a potential cost to the present. Benning's priorities, at least going by the transactions he's made, have always been the present, so even those in favour of trading Markstrom would have plenty of reason to believe it was not going to happen.

Secondly, though, while Demko's performance may be enough to determine that going with Demko was the better way to go, I don't think we can assume that Markstrom's performance would have been the same in Vancouver as it was in Calgary. While it may seem unlikely, it may even be that Markstrom, Canucks' MVP for two consecutive seasons, might have outperformed Demko. (Whether he might have doesn't matter though-the cost wouldn't have been worth it.)

Markstrom started the season doing well, while being ridden like a mule, as if the Flames had no trust in their backup. In the shortened season, after 12 games Markstrom was riding a save % of .925 for the season, with 2 shutouts.

Then the roof caved in and his save % dropped, like a rock, to .904 for the season. Some possible reasons:

1. He was lucky the first 12 games and the stats for those games don't reflect his play at the time.

2. Some time while being ridden like a mule, he got some niggling hurts that affected his play going forward.

3. Some time while being ridden like a mule, he got tired and his play suffered, at least intermittently.

4. Some time while being ridden like a mule, he got stale and didn't have a goalie coach able to help him make adjustments to get back on track, unlike his situation in Vancouver the previous couple of years.

5. ? Who knows?

The point I'm trying to make is that we can't assume that Markstrom wouldn't have been really good for the Canucks last season. Sometimes circumstances make huge difference-perhaps even enough to take someone from riding high with a .925 save percentage to marginal NHL level and a .904 save percentage.

We'll never know, and it really doesn't matter. In hindsight, as it was in foresight, after the 2019-20 season was over going with Demko rather than give Markstrom 6 x 6 with nmc was the logical thing to do. Losing Demko in the expansion draft would be ridiculous so the only realistic option (at that time) would have been to try to trade Demko (or the short-term negotiating rights to Markstom) for assets.

For the record, I doubt that the return on a Demko trade would have been sufficient to make that a reasonable choice. After the 2019-20 season was complete, Benning made the correct decision in deciding to go with Demko. The decision was so obvious that it would have been hideous to get it wrong.

 

[VanJack]

Demko is six years younger than Markstrom and earning a million less per season. So obviously Benning made the 'right call' in going with Demko and then extending him.

The big mistake was hedging his bets last off-season by signing Holtby to a bloated contract and then being forced to buy him out.

 

[MarkMM]

Demko sold himself with his great performance during the 2020 playoffs...Yet, Dim Jim didn't have the foresight to know this was going to happen at the TDL...months before..?

A small point but the need to know what we had in Markstrom BEFORE the TDL was why a lot of people here were calling for him to be played more so that we could know one way or another if he's the one we should bet on. If they'd played Demko more and enough that the team and management were sold on him being ready then that could have made trading Markstrom more viable.

 

[timw33]

Demko is six years younger than Markstrom and earning a million less per season. So obviously Benning made the 'right call' in going with Demko and then extending him.

The big mistake was hedging his bets last off-season by signing Holtby to a bloated contract and then being forced to buy him out.

That's the real issue. He made the right call, but the whole point in going with Demko over Markstrom was to use the savings to improve other areas of the roster, instead of grabbing a bottom of barrel performing backup goalie and assuming he would be 1A quality. Just a piss poor pro scouting read followed by an even worse contract.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

It's a weird psychology to the locker room to trade your best player in a playoff push.

I get that he walked anyways after the playoffs and the locker was shook but to expect Benning to have traded Markstrom at the time is captain hindsight.

No, my point is with the inconsistent logic I keep seeing.

The team couldn't trade Markstrom because they were in the middle of a playoff push, but it's okay they went with Demko right after the playoff push because Markstrom would be over the hill when the core group was ready to compete.

Uh...if the core isn't ready to compete, why is the team making a playoff push? Why has Benning sent out draft picks to get Miller, Garland, OEL, etc?

 

[bandwagonesque]

re bolded: The time the group can compete is supposed to be right now, remember? They've spent the last three years trading away draft picks for right now pieces. I've seen more than a couple of people around here saying: "Oh, you can't tank forever, all the players are getting older, they have to go for it sometime, blah blah blah."

They couldn't get assets for Markstrom because he was the MVP and people would be mad because the team was trying to make a playoff run...but it's okay to watch him go for nothing immediately after because he's going to be too old when the group could compete? Which is it?

The answer lies in the qualitative difference you’re deliberately ignoring between a) trading a star starting goaltender while fighting desperately for a playoff spot and b) redirecting the resources you would have to use to sign him at the conclusion of a subsequent playoff run in which that goaltender’s young backup and heir apparent plays extremely well.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

The answer lies in the qualitative difference you’re deliberately ignoring between a) trading a star starting goaltender while fighting desperately for a playoff spot and b) redirecting the resources you would have to use to sign him at the conclusion of a subsequent playoff run in which that goaltender’s young backup and heir apparent plays extremely well.

Okay, here's my problem. This:

The decision had to be made MVP or not. 31yr old who wasn't near the best players ages and would be in his mid 30s by the time the group could compete vs one that was tracking to be as good or better and met the age criteria? In a perfect world without expansion protection we could walk it down the line to take away risk. But it wasn't an option Marky made sure of that. It's an important distinction

If the core isn't ready to compete then why is the team worrying about fighting for playoff spots? Why isn't it maximizing value for players who won't be around when the core is ready to compete? Why worry about the message you're sending to the room when the team isn't ready to seriously compete?

And if you're prioritizing winning right now and you're fighting desperately for a playoff spot, then why aren't you trying to keep your proven MVP? Who gives a shit how Markstrom is three, four years down the road if you're focusing on the present and loading up to win right now, as Benning clearly is?

 

[F A N]

There has been a lot of correlation between the fans who have been calling this team terrible and being upset about Markstrom.

The decision had to be made MVP or not. 31yr old who wasn't near the best players ages and would be in his mid 30s by the time the group could compete vs one that was tracking to be as good or better and met the age criteria? In a perfect world without expansion protection we could walk it down the line to take away risk. But it wasn't an option Marky made sure of that. It's an important distinction

Demko has always been a premier prospect. His draft year many thought he was a top15 pick prospect and the best goalie in the draft. His play in BC and Utica had done nothing to dissuade this and by the time he DemKO'd Vegas it was simply a no brainer.

Making poor decisions due to overall optics is not a good reason to support poor decisions. The decision for Demko will prove to be the right one. Thatcher Demko is gonna be one of the best goalies in the NHL at the perfect time for our core

Well as much as I like Demko, he definitely wasn't considered a top 15 pick in his draft eligible year. He was more like a late first round pick type.

Passing the torch to Demko was always the ideal situation. But between Markstrom's emergence as one of the best goalies in the league and Demko's relatively delayed NHL start and it was a tough decision. Ideally, the Canucks would have had another year to decide but they didn't.

Regardless, I agree with you that I think it did work out for the best. If Demko can stay healthy I think he'll be a fine #1 goalie for the Canucks for years to come.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

A small point but the need to know what we had in Markstrom BEFORE the TDL was why a lot of people here were calling for him to be played more so that we could know one way or another if he's the one we should bet on. If they'd played Demko more and enough that the team and management were sold on him being ready then that could have made trading Markstrom more viable.

We knew what we had in Marky, playing him more wasn't necessary...and no,...you don't start experimenting with goalies in a season where you have gone 'all in' to make the playoffs, and every win is critical.

Maybe Demko wasn't entirely ready at the beginning of the 2019-20 season to take on a big workload...?...We don't know what occurs behind the scenes...My guess is , is that they've always wanted to bring Demko along step by step, without throwing him in the deep end...This is why they signed Holtby..It backfired, but thats the reasoning behind it.