Teams expecting suspensions as 2018 Hockey Canada investigation concludes (update 7/13) up to 8 players from Team Canada to be named

[eco's bones]

It would be nice if more people realized that something like this could someday happen to them or someone close to them.

For some here it's probably not what they'd expect out of more well to do caucasian males who have glorious futures ahead of them and they have a problem coming to grips with throwing the book at what otherwise would be the children of middle and upper class citizens. Yeah there are tiers of justice IMO....several more than just the two that conservatives like to think there is now.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Harvey Weinstein and Jared Fogel were proven guilty the old fashioned way. I am happy they are in prison.

These players are currently guilty of nothing. The NHL is not equipped to properly investigate criminal matters and shouldn't be involved in any determination of guilt. If guilt is proven, then I will support their imprisonment and dismissal.

As a private company I'd support them doing it if they determine they breached their code of conduct. I do wonder if it might open up the league to legal action though - any precedent for this, or anyone know if they may have recourse should they be cleared legally but suspended by their employer?

 

[Troy McClure]

This makes no sense.

Both Subway Jared and Harvey Weinstein were arrested and incarcerated through the judicial system.

You need a better example where there wasn't enough evidence to successfully prosecute and yet their employment was terminated anyway.

It's still possible that the London Police are going to issue charges, I don't know.

EDIT: Matt Lauer is a better example. He can't be punished via the legal system due to the statute of limitations in New York but was fired nonetheless.

If someone thinks Matt Lauer should have his job back because he was never arrested and prosecuted, they would be pro-rapist.

Jared and Weinstein are perfect examples. You're getting the timing wrong.

When do you think Subway fired Jared? Subway cut ties with him when his home was raided. Subway kicked him to the curb before he was ever charged with a crime and well before he was formally a convicted criminal.

Harvey Weinstein was fired when the stories about him hit the newsstand. He wasn't charged with a crime until the next year. He wasn't convicted of a crime until three years after being fired.

 

[GeoRox89]

As a private company I'd support them doing it if they determine they breached their code of conduct. I do wonder if it might open up the league to legal action though - any precedent for this, or anyone know if they may have recourse should they be cleared legally but suspended by their employer?

It’s a morality clause. It works to their advantage that a lot of people are still pretty turned off by the scenario if it was consensual. It’s not like a robbery where if they’re cleared it’s because the did nothing at all. Sponsors and fans could still not like what happened enough regardless of criminality for the league to run with it as being against their morality/conduct code now that it’s out in the public sphere

 

[Troy McClure]

Harvey Weinstein and Jared Fogel were proven guilty the old fashioned way. I am happy they are in prison.

These players are currently guilty of nothing. The NHL is not equipped to properly investigate criminal matters and shouldn't be involved in any determination of guilt. If guilt is proven, then I will support their imprisonment and dismissal.

But were you mad when Jared and Weinstein were fired well before being charged with crimes or being found guilty?

 

[Coaches Coroner]

Obviously things like SA and rape are a tricky thing to prove in court, but if the NHL determines the players were involved and the facts of the case are what they seem, I hope they never play in the league again, and would fully support a punishment like that.

Unfortunately, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard for very good reason, even though it does let a lot of truly scummy things go unpunished.

...and then when people go to civil court to get some sort of justice where the threshold is "more probable than not" people accuse them of being gold diggers.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

It’s a morality clause. It works to their advantage that a lot of people are still pretty turned off by the scenario if it was consensual. It’s not like a robbery where if they’re cleared it’s because the did nothing at all. Sponsors and fans could still not like what happened enough regardless of criminality for the league to run with it as being against their morality/conduct code now that it’s out in the public sphere

Interesting, appreciate it. Do you know what the situation would look like had any of the players been undrafted when it occurred? If, for instance, a player like Cozens had been on the team (NOT IMPLICATING HIM), but not draft eligible until the next year would they still be able to terminate him based on the morality clause had it come out after he was drafted?

...and then when people go to civil court to get some sort of justice where the threshold is "more probable than not" people accuse them of being gold diggers.

Yep, not that it doesn't happen but a lot of victims get dragged through the mud unfairly.

 

[Silky Johnson]

As a private company I'd support them doing it if they determine they breached their code of conduct. I do wonder if it might open up the league to legal action though - any precedent for this, or anyone know if they may have recourse should they be cleared legally but suspended by their employer?

If its not proven to be rape then what happened is legally consensual. I certainly don't have a clause in my contract that doesn't allow me to participate in consensual sexual activity in private. I doubt the players do as well.

That presupposes that the employer could prove anything happened at all.

 

[NyQuil]

Jared and Weinstein are perfect examples. You're getting the timing wrong.

When do you think Subway fired Jared? Subway cut ties with him when his home was raided. Subway kicked him to the curb before he was ever charged with a crime and well before he was formally a convicted criminal.

Harvey Weinstein was fired when the stories about him hit the newsstand. He wasn't charged with a crime until the next year. He wasn't convicted of a crime until three years after being fired.

Well Player X isn’t playing in Ottawa so it’s already happening.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Well Player X isn’t playing in Ottawa so it’s already happening.

It's a bit different when the allegations broke into the mainstream when he was without a contract though - I imagine there are different standards when a player is under contract vs when he's an RFA.

 

[Mike C]

Would you have banned Peyton Manning for his transgressions at UT or is it just Vick that is subject to this treatment ?

Just Vick

 

[GeoRox89]

If its not proven to be rape then what happened is legally consensual. I certainly don't have a clause in my contract that doesn't allow me to participate in consensual sexual activity in private. I doubt the players do as well.

That presupposes that the employer could prove anything happened at all.

There was literally an EA/TA in BC that was just fired for cause over her clearly consensual and completely legal Only Fans account. It was deemed to be gross misconduct in violation of the morality clause. This is not as simple as people want it to be since it is public knowledge now

Generally, I would say what consensually happens in the bedroom is no one’s business. This is out now. At best, it’s a borderline coercive gangbang sprung on an unsuspecting drunk young woman. It’s not that hard to see why large corporations might want to distance themselves from that behaviour once people know about it

 

[Pavels Dog]

If its not proven to be rape then what happened is legally consensual.

That’s not how it works.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

If its not proven to be rape then what happened is legally consensual. I certainly don't have a clause in my contract that doesn't allow me to participate in consensual sexual activity in private. I doubt the players do as well.

That presupposes that the employer could prove anything happened at all.

I believe the action defines what it is and not a court. I’d love to see you tell the father of a victim they weren’t raped because there wasn’t strong enough evidence to convict them. Or god forbid having to tell your own daughter she wasn’t raped because there was no conviction

 

[Silky Johnson]

But were you mad when Jared and Weinstein were fired well before being charged with crimes or being found guilty?

Jared Fogel was fired by Subway the day he was arrested and charged.

Harvey Weinstein was pushed out by of his own company by other shareholders. I don't think it is a good thing that he lost his livelihood before any charges but understand the action of the other people trying to save their company.

I also see a difference between depriving the multimillionaire, face a company, accused by dozens of people and was promptly arrested and charged, of their livelihood and some (at the time) teenagers who are at the beginning of their careers and who have not been charged 5 years after police started investigating.

 

[Silky Johnson]

There was literally an EA/TA in BC that was just fired for cause over her clearly consensual and completely legal Only Fans account. It was deemed to be gross misconduct in violation of the morality clause. This is not as simple as people want it to be since it is public knowledge now

Generally, I would say what consensually happens in the bedroom is no one’s business. This is out now. At best, it’s a borderline coercive gangbang sprung on an unsuspecting drunk young woman. It’s not that hard to see why large corporations might want to distance themselves from that behaviour once people know about it

An Only Fans account is hardly private and should not have the expectation of privacy. It is literally a publicly accessible business.

 

[GeoRox89]

Interesting, appreciate it. Do you know what the situation would look like had any of the players been undrafted when it occurred? If, for instance, a player like Cozens had been on the team (NOT IMPLICATING HIM), but not draft eligible until the next year would they still be able to terminate him based on the morality clause had it come out after he was drafted?

I doubt you would see permanent lifetime bans unless there is evidence of criminality. Unspoken agreements to not give the players contracts once their suspensions are over, definitely possible.

As a different example, Mason Greenwood (EPL) was suspended when allegations came to light and at this stage remains suspended pending completion of the internal investigation/decision. The charges in that case were dropped because his fiancé went back to him and proceeded to refuse to cooperate. However, there is recorded audio of the alleged rape and seriously do not listen to it because it’s utterly disturbing and pretty clear what happened. She chose to go back and have the case fall apart and that’s her right. A lot of people will be very unhappy if he ever plays for United again because that tape is very damning even though charges were dropped. Personally, after 25 years I will drop them in no time flat and support someone else if ever puts on a United shirt again

 

[Silky Johnson]

That’s not how it works.

Yes, it is.

Presumption of innocence....

 

[GeoRox89]

An Only Fans account is hardly private and should not have the expectation of privacy. It is literally a publicly accessible business.

Not arguing it’s private. The barebones details of what happened here is no longer private. Morality clauses don’t necessarily rest on behaviour being criminal. It just has to be conduct unbecoming that reflects poorly on the organization

 

[DingDongCharlie]

I don't really have any confidence in this being the case. If a player is talented enough, there is always going to be a team that will be willing to give them a shot once the outcry has sufficiently died down.

You're probably right. I mean there was reportedly 4 teams that wanted Slava Voynov. Still, even being indefinitely banned (not permanently) he never did find his way back to the NHL and at this point it's unlikely he ever will.

I think teams would be even more hesitant in this situation if allegations are proven true.

 

[Silky Johnson]

I believe the action defines what it is and not a court. I’d love to see you tell the father of a victim they weren’t raped because there wasn’t strong enough evidence to convict them. Or god forbid having to tell your own daughter she wasn’t raped because there was no conviction

If we are going to run our justice system around the personal and (understandably) highly biased feelings of alleged victims families we are in trouble.

In fact we are already there. What do you say to the MANY wrongly convicted black men who did additional time for rape and murder because of the victim impact statement of parents?

Justice should be dispassionate.

 

[Mike C]

An Only Fans account is hardly private and should not have the expectation of privacy. It is literally a publicly accessible business.

What was the account login again?

 

[Silky Johnson]

Not arguing it’s private. The barebones details of what happened here is no longer private. Morality clauses don’t necessarily rest on behaviour being criminal. It just has to be conduct unbecoming that reflects poorly on the organization

If you have had the reasonable expectation of privacy then the morality clause would be hard to enforce.

This is either group sex or rape. One is a crime and the other is legal sexual activity.

A corporation may want to move on from the individual(s) involved but they should be paying out.

What was the account login again?

Performers accounts on only fans are publicly viewable

 

[Gregor Samsa]

If we are going to run our justice system around the personal and (understandably) highly biased feelings of alleged victims families we are in trouble.

In fact we are already there. What do you say to the MANY wrongly convicted black men who did additional time for rape and murder because of the victim impact statement of parents?

Justice should be dispassionate.

I think there are exponentially higher amounts of rapists that were never convicted than people in jail from false accusations. If your first thought in a situation like this, is “we must think of the players firstly and what’s fair to them”, that’s fine. We disagree in how this situation should be approached. Public figures are held to a much higher standard. It all depends on what the report says, but if it’s true as rumored that they made her consent on camera, they made her wash like a home invasion rapist to get rid of evidence, and texts messages were exchanged, but for some reason there isn’t a conviction, teams would be fools to keep these players. The PR would be destroyed. People are fired or “resign” all the time when their actions reflect horribly on who they are representing, whether there is a conviction or not. As I’ve said before, it all depends on what the report says. Discretion might have to be exercised, and the backlash could be brutal if not handled correctly

 

[Mike C]

If you have had the reasonable expectation of privacy then the morality clause would be hard to enforce.

This is either group sex or rape. One is a crime and the other is legal sexual activity.

A corporation may want to move on from the individual(s) involved but they should be paying out.

Performers accounts on only fans are publicly viewable

I'm afraid of who I'll find there