Teams expecting suspensions as 2018 Hockey Canada investigation concludes (update 7/13) up to 8 players from Team Canada to be named

[jbeck5]

Here, just the charges will suffice. No way the NHL will allow these guys playing if they're awaiting trial or actually on trial.


There's also the issue of teams willingness to sign these players. There's a pretty obvious one that's UFA now and who would normally have been offered a deal otherwise. Probably only waiting for the investigation to completely close and for reports.

Didn't Kobe keep playing during his rape trial?

I don't see the issue with allowing them to keep working while the courts decide if they're guilty or not guilty.

What's the problem?

If they're found guilty you ban them and they go to jail. If not found guilty, they keep doing their job. Like any of us in the same situation.

 

[NyQuil]

Didn't Kobe keep playing during trial?

That was a long time ago.

Whether or not the league steps in, there will be public pressure on the teams themselves to impose internal discipline.

It's going to be interesting.

Most NHL contracts have a "morals clause" that the teams could potentially employ to impose a suspension or void the contract entirely.

 

[MXD]

Didn't Kobe keep playing during his rape trial?

I don't see the issue with allowing them to keep working while the courts decide if they're guilty or not guilty.

What's the problem?

If they're found guilty you ban them and they go to jail. If not found guilty, they keep doing their job. Like any of us in the same situation.

Remind me...
When was that again?

 

[Snotbubbles]

Shocking how people here can admit there might not be enough evidence for a criminal conviction, yet still hope for an NHL suspension because the sponsors and fans ask for that. And others literally defend mob justice by saying that the criminal justice system doesn’t get the job done and that the mob’s intentions are good.

The Soviet Union called and wants its due process back.

A corporation is not under the same burdens of proof that a criminal prosecution has when it comes to punishment. There doesn't have to be a crime committed to receive a suspension in the NHL.

The CBA section 18-A(2) says the Commissioner has the authority to suspend players for "conduct...detrimental to or against the welfare of the League or the game of hockey" and may "(a) by expelling or suspending such Player for a definite or indefinite period; (b) by cancelling any SPC that such Player has with any Member Club; or (c) by imposing a fine on the Player not exceeding the maximum permissible fine under Section 18.7(b)."

Conduct detrimental to the game of hockey is a very broad scope.

 

[jbeck5]

That was a long time ago.

Whether or not the league steps in, there will be public pressure on the teams themselves to impose internal discipline.

It's going to be interesting.

It wasn't THAT long ago. It was still modern times with internet and everything. It was all over tv, the internet, and front of newspapers. This guy was also debatably the best player in the world at the time. It was huge news. Way more prevalent news than this.

How much pressure did the NBA face to do anything?

It definitely will be interesting though, you're right there.

There's also vocal pressure saying you can't punish those who aren't found guilty, so we'll see what happens there.

There's a pendulum affect going on.

 

[NyQuil]

It wasn't THAT long ago. It was still modern times with internet and everything. It was all over tv, the internet, and front of newspapers. This guy was also debatably the best player in the world at the time. It was huge news. Way more prevalent news than this.

How much pressure did the NBA face to do anything?

It definitely will be interesting though, you're right there.

There's also vocal pressure saying you can't punish those who aren't found guilty, so we'll see what happens there.

There's a pendulum affect going on.

Yes it was THAT long ago.

There's "pre Me Too" and "post Me Too".

IIRC, the narrative at the time with Kobe was about his poor wife, whether she'd stay with him or not, and the giant ring he ended up buying her.

There's also vocal pressure saying you can't punish those who aren't found guilty, so we'll see what happens there.

A lot of it will depend on the level of detail regarding the incident and the individual players involved.

 

[MasterofGrond]

The NHL levying suspensions against players isn’t mob justice lmao.

 

[cowboy82nd]

No one is suggesting giving these players a pass IF they're actually guilty of anything. The fact that the entire investigation hasn't been brought before a court of law raises massive red flags. Instead they choose to drag this entire ordeal out for years while the media/mob slowly leak out info to ensure a fair trial (if one would even happen) isn't possible, maximizing damage to anyone involved.

Just asking a question here. What happens if the victim decided not to press charges? What happens if she doesn't want to go through this all over again in a court of law? Can the guys still face punishment through a court of law (District Attorney bringing up charges)? Or is this all being brought on by the allegations and the following investigation because of those allegations? Either way, what ever Hockey Canada and the NHL find out, (and the courts if it goes that far), there has to be some kind of punishment brought on.

 

[JKG33]

That was a long time ago.

Whether or not the league steps in, there will be public pressure on the teams themselves to impose internal discipline.

It's going to be interesting.

Most NHL contracts have a "morals clause" that the teams could potentially employ to impose a suspension or void the contract entirely.

And at some point, someone's going to have to tell the public no. I don't anticipate the NHL to be the first to do it unfortunately.

Look at that punter in the NFL, Matt Arazia. He was a fairly high draft pick, a rape allegation came out and it looked really damning.. turns out he more likely than not did nothing wrong. But he was still cut by the Bills, lost out on a year of his career, and many idiots in the public still think he's a piece of shit for no reason.

Sports leagues need to stop dishing out punishments prior to court cases.

 

[brentashton]

Yes sir. Just a peaceful protest!

They all start that way!

 

[tsujimoto74]

Feel like there should be a bigger punishment than just a suspension for what occurred.

I mean, Alex Formenton went from being a pretty well-regarded prospect who played a full NHL season for the Sens to not being able to get a pro contract anywhere in North America. It’s not a formal ban, but it looks like his NHL career is dead unless this investigation exonerates him.

E: If you’re talking about legal consequences, there already was a civil case, and it settled. In terms of criminal justice, that’s obviously outside of the NHL’s or Hockey Canada’s control.

 

[jbeck5]

Yes it was THAT long ago.

There's "pre Me Too" and "post Me Too".

IIRC, the narrative at the time with Kobe was about his poor wife, whether she'd stay with him or not, and the giant ring he ended up buying her.



A lot of it will depend on the level of detail regarding the incident and the individual players involved.

This probably goes against my argument of it not being THAT long ago...though I do remember it like it was last week. Time flies...

That being said, I'd say there's a "pre me too", a "me too movement" and a "post me too movement". We're now in the post me too movement. A lot of celebrities that were outed or cancelled have gotten their second chances and made comebacks. You also have many comedians talking about "during the me too movement" as it being a thing of the past. Not that people won't call out sexual crimes, but that there isn't this "call out everything from years ago" movement. It's almost as if we ignored everything, then became super sensitive to everything, and are now becoming numb or feeling out a middle ground.

I guess we shall see what happens.

 

[Captain97]

This needs to be said, what these guys did was scummy and I don't know what I'd do if I was the girl's father.

That being said from a legal point of view in seems very unlikely they'll be charged and if I Remember correctly they had a video of the girl "consenting" (she was drunk so we then get into a philosophical/legal question of if all parties are intoxicated what standard of law applies)

But the point I'm trying to get at is if the police find insufficient evidence of a crime being committed for charges let alone a conviction it becomes difficult to do more than just suspend players as it could be seen as wrongful dismissal and could open the NHL to be Liable given the players currently have contracts.

I wouldn't be surprised though if these players don't get another contract though. They may not have grounds to terminate a contract but I don't have to give you another.

 

[Three On Zero]

I mean, Alex Formenton went from being a pretty well-regarded prospect who played a full NHL season for the Sens to not being able to get a pro contract anywhere in North America. It’s not a formal ban, but it looks like his NHL career is dead unless this investigation exonerates him.

E: If you’re talking about legal consequences, there already was a civil case, and it settled. I’m terms of criminal justice, that’s obviously outside of the NHL’s or Hockey Canada’s control.

All posts in this thread naming names have been removed up to this point. Probably don’t want to start the finger pointing game again

 

[MXD]

Just asking a question here. What happens if the victim decided not to press charges? What happens if she doesn't want to go through this all over again in a court of law? Can the guys still face punishment through a court of law (District Attorney bringing up charges)? Or is this all being brought on by the allegations and the following investigation because of those allegations? Either way, what ever Hockey Canada and the NHL find out, (and the courts if it goes that far), there has to be some kind of punishment brought on.

Bold : No one cares : the state press charges, not victims.

Bigger Font : It definitely doesn't help the prosecution, though a version of her (potential) testimony would probably be found through the file, as the police can't possibly investigate without what she had to say. This would raise credibility questions towards the witness/victim. She'll very certainly be subpoenaed.

 

[brentashton]

Doesn't a judge decide if theres enough evidence to convict and proceed with a case or not?

Not exactly as you have written . Crown decides if the charge goes forward and if enough evidence for a probable successful conviction exists. Lots of examples where cases of alleged behaviour don’t go to trial because of that.

The judge adjudicates the process of a trial ensuring statute and process is followed and, in a judge alone trial, renders a decision based on the evidence brought forward by the crown and defence counsels.

 

[jbeck5]

If a player makes racist remarks, that’s not against the law in America. Zero possibility of criminal charges. Should the league be able to suspend them?

There are very valid reasons why the league disciplinary process can not and should not mirror law enforcements.

I agree with your point.

But what if it wasn't that a player made racist remarks, but that a player is accused of making racist remarks, but we haven't seen any evidence of it.

Then I would be hesitant to support disciplinary action. I'd want evidence. I'm very evidence focused, and not claims focused. It's the scientific mind in me. Not saying I need to see evidence, but I would hope that it's there and it's clear. And if it's there and it's clear, I would hope charges are laid..

 

[Curufinwe]

Didn't Kobe keep playing during his rape trial?

It didn't get to trial because the woman he raped was hounded into dropping the charges by Kobe fans, the media and his lawyers.

#KobeBryant's rape case is painful for what it says about us, not him

The Bryant case kicked off the decade that changed how we talk about sexual abuse, and that matters

www.salon.com

 

[MXD]

That being said from a legal point of view in seems very unlikely they'll be charged and if I Remember correctly they had a video of the girl "consenting" (she was drunk so we then get into a philosophical/legal question of if all parties are intoxicated what standard of law applies)

But the point I'm trying to get at is if the police find insufficient evidence of a crime being committed for charges let alone a conviction it becomes difficult to do more than just suspend players as it could be seen as wrongful dismissal and could open the NHL to be Liable given the players currently have contracts.

I wouldn't be surprised though if these players don't get another contract though. They may not have grounds to terminate a contract but I don't have to give you another.

Past a certain point of drunkeness (can'T come up with the right english word and too lazy to search for it), you can't legally give a valid consent.

Also worth pointing out that, it'S not because somebody is declared not guilty that the charged person didn't commit the infraction; it just means it couldn't be proven BARD.

Hell, with sexual assault, it's safe to go as far as saying that no charges being laid doesn't even mean the infraction hasn't been commited : it just means that there isn't more than a reasonable chance of conviction.

 

[jbeck5]

The courts mean little, especially in notoriously difficult to prosecute cases like rape, which are often he said she said. Many walk free who are guilty. That is a consequence of guilt beyond reasonable doubt. There is too much smoke for there to not be a fire of some sort. If the court of law fails, things often go to the court of public opinion for some type of vengeance. OJ Simpson was found innocent but no way would I ever shake his hand. I agree we should wait and see what comes out and who is exonerated. But if players are found guilty, there should be some type of punishment even if it’s “mob justice”. And the whole rehabilitation thing is good in theory but fails in practice. If a pedophile who did 5 years moved next door to you, would you be fine letting your kids near him? He did his time and they worked on rehabilitating him, right? Doesn’t really work like that. Make stupid decisions and you have to live with consequences

I don't think anyone should ever be doing jail based on he said she said with zero evidence. That's a slippery slope.

So you think people can't be rehabilitated? A teenager who steals will steal as an adult? A teenager who gets in fights will assault people as an adult?

I think people can grow and learn.

You'd probably be surprised to find out that most of your family and friends commited some crimes in their youth that they would never repeat as an adult. Or even something they did as a young adult that they would never do again.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

I don't think anyone should ever be doing jail based on he said she said with zero evidence. That's a slippery slope.

So you think people can't be rehabilitated? A teenager who steals will steal as an adult? A teenager who gets in fights will assault people as an adult?

I think people can grow and learn.

You'd probably be surprised to find out that most of your family and friends commited some crimes in their youth that they would never repeat as an adult. Or even something they did as a young adult that they would never do again.

The players are not the victims here.

 

[MXD]

I don't think anyone should ever be doing jail based on he said she said with zero evidence. That's a slippery slope.

So you think people can't be rehabilitated? A teenager who steals will steal as an adult? A teenager who gets in fights will assault people as an adult?

I think people can grow and learn.

You'd probably be surprised to find out that most of your family and friends commited some crimes in their youth that they would never repeat as an adult. Or even something they did as a young adult that they would never do again.

Rehabilitation generally involves prior sentencing, or some sort of consequences.

 

[Hopeless Unbeliever]

I agree with your point.

But what if it wasn't that a player made racist remarks, but that a player is accused of making racist remarks, but we haven't seen any evidence of it.

Then I would be hesitant to support disciplinary action. I'd want evidence. I'm very evidence focused, and not claims focused. It's the scientific mind in me. Not saying I need to see evidence, but I would hope that it's there and it's clear. And if it's there and it's clear, I would hope charges are laid..

Hasn't there been an extensive investigation by a very high profile law firm? Are we demanding more than that?

 

[AvroArrow]

People here were explicitely talking about sponsors and fans, so “fans and sponsors yes”.

And I’m aware there is often no evidence of the crime. Due process should still apply. If there’s no evidence, there should be no punishment. Saying “there’s no evidence so we don’t need any evidence” doesn’t make much sense. And while we’re at it, people who are personally attached to the issue (as you’re through the tragic events thathappened to your family), should usually stay away as they cannot offer levelheaded judgment.

Let me add one more thing to all those pointing out this is not a criminal proceeding so we don’t need to follow its rules. As a society we agreed crimes should be punished. And we created the criminal justice system as a tool to deal with criminals. A tool that is better than mob justice which we had seen enough of (see which hunts) and said this is not the way. We’ve also agreed that there are some principles that must be followed (basically due process) precisely to make it better and more just that mob justice. People here shouting for punishments outside of criminal justice system and its rules simply want to go full circle and do exactly what we’ve already agreed we shouldn’t do.

Again you're still missing the point, there's no evidence in 99 percent of these kinds of cases. Unless there was videos/photos, there is no possible way to present evidence. It's always just testimonies and character testimonies unless there's hard physical evidence.

That last bolded sentence is a joke dude. I can say a similar thing, people that have zero experience with these kinds of events should usually stay away as they cannot offer an insightful perspective. What a ridiculous comment.

 

[NyQuil]

Civil and criminal code of law does provide for a process of investigation and punishment that is levied out by an agreed-upon authority to which we agree to adhere to as part of being members of a society.

Once that individual "pays their debt", either monetarily or through some form of punishment, they are ostensibly returned certain rights and freedoms.

I do think we are in a bit of a nebulous area when it comes to immoral or insensitive conduct outside of the criminal or civil justice arena.

How long should someone be suspended from their job? How long until someone else can hire them? What is the process by which we can confirm that they paid an acceptable debt? What does that entail? What does it look like?

I don't think anyone really knows.

We sort of have a vague notion of "that person hasn't been punished enough" but no real collective agreement on how that ends, or what it looks like.

I'll bet opinions would range from "They should never play professional hockey again" to "They should be forced contribute financially or with their time towards victims of sexual assault" to "They should have to attend some form of counselling" to "They should have to walk naked through the town while people yell "Shame" at them and throw vegetables at them."

I think when individuals are public figures, there's a lot more pressure in terms of immediate consequences and not necessarily agreeing with or buying into the formal process of judgment.