Teams expecting suspensions as 2018 Hockey Canada investigation concludes (update 7/13) up to 8 players from Team Canada to be named

[MasterofGrond]

“I was too drunk to not do a gang rape” PROBABLY not gonna fly.

 

[Mattilaus]

That’s not even close to the truth.

Yes it is. If the league as a whole wanted to, they could tell Crosby to kick rocks tomorrow and he'd never play an NHL game again. Could he sue for breach of contract? Of course he could and if he won he'd get millions, but the NHL isn't obligated to keep employing him.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

I didn't say that.

Next time you quote me try responding to the words I said instead of creating a strawman.



In theory or in practice?

I've done plenty of things wrong that I got away with that I wouldn't do again.

I've never been convicted of a crime, but I've sure as hell done illegal stuff in my youth that I wouldn't do again.

What do you call that and why doesn't it apply?

But also, if there's no crime, what rehabilitation is needed? If there's evidence of a crime, there will be punishment that satisfies your criteria.

Please. You’re the one going on about the players and their rehabilitation and the damages they’ll face.

There’s no straw man here. You’re not giving one shit about the real victim. It’s not the rich boys either.

 

[AvroArrow]

What do you mean strange take?

How is it strange to say that because someone did something in their youth doesn't mean they're a high risk of doing it again years later.

Wtf is "strange" about that???

It's strange because you're dismissing what they did and are more concerned with the well being of the suspect, rather than wanting the suspects to face consequences for their crimes.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

I don't think anyone should ever be doing jail based on he said she said with zero evidence. That's a slippery slope.

So you think people can't be rehabilitated? A teenager who steals will steal as an adult? A teenager who gets in fights will assault people as an adult?

I think people can grow and learn.

You'd probably be surprised to find out that most of your family and friends commited some crimes in their youth that they would never repeat as an adult. Or even something they did as a young adult that they would never do again.

I think most crimes can be rehabilitated. Jails are overcrowded and tons of people in there need rehab for drugs, not jail and a record. Off the top of my head there are 4 crimes that mark you for life- rape, necrophilia, pre-pubescent pedophila, and most murder. Most people don’t engage in such behavior when young. Doing so is a sign of a degenerate and maladaptive person. I used to throw a lot of house parties when I was younger and lots of people passed through my place. Sometimes girls would pass out. Never did any guy try anything. It isn’t a case of youthful folly but defective moral compass. I don’t see this as a boys will be boys type scenario. Most boys will not rape a girl. Everyone can learn from their mistakes. Everyone can use a poor choice as a turning point in their life. But as I said before, it is a privilege to play in the NHL. People deserve second chances and a right to earn a crust of bread, but I don’t think they are entitled to be public figures making millions. As I’ve also said before I’m waiting to see what is in the report.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

You obviously have no idea what an evidence is and your statitics are completely made up. Still, if there really is no evidence, there should be no punishment. Always.

And yes, people personally attached to a case should stay away from it. I agree people with zero experience should stay away as well, that’s why legal professionals with formal training should deal with it. Thecriminal justice system makes sure of that. Mob doesn’t.

Another guy more concerned about the woke mob than the actual crime.

 

[Troy McClure]

Yep it's a business and not a courtroom or jail. If our society needs businesses to enforce the laws then we have some very serious issues do we not?

No one is talking about the NHL enforcing laws. The NHL isn’t going to be sending anyone to jail.

This is a marketing issue. Do the customers (fans and sponsors) want to see the NHL suspend rapists? Clearly, your vote is no, but you’re acting like this is something new. Players get suspended for stuff done off ice all the time. Drunk driving, taking steroids, domestic violence, etc.

 

[AvroArrow]

You obviously have no idea what an evidence is and your statitics are completely made up. Still, if there really is no evidence, there should be no punishment. Always.

And yes, people personally attached to a case should stay away from it. I agree people with zero experience should stay away as well, that’s why legal professionals with formal training should deal with it. Thecriminal justice system makes sure of that. Mob doesn’t.

You're asking for hard tangible evidence. Unless there is a video or pictures, you won't be satisfied. You gotta understand, that kind of evidence doesn't exist in 99% percent of these cases. It's not like the accused was confirming their actions via text message or audio clip or something.

I'm not making that statistic up, it's what our lawyers told us when we were making our case. The most important thing in these cases is the testimony of the victim and suspect, as well as character testimonies of people who were familiar with the suspects and victims.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

If true, to me the bigger question is how many young ladies have been raped by d-bags like this over the years and never reported it out of shame, etc. Plus, seriously, ew.

 

[Troy McClure]

You're asking for hard tangible evidence. Unless there is a video or pictures, you won't be satisfied. You gotta understand, that kind of evidence doesn't exist in 99% percent of these cases. It's not like the accused was confirming their actions via text message or audio clip or something.

I'm not making that statistic up, it's what our lawyers told us when we were making our case. The most important thing in these cases is the testimony of the victim and suspect, as well as character testimonies of people who were familiar with the suspects and victims.

It’s also kind of funny how the people angry about these guys being tried in the court of public opinion are demanding to see all of the evidence because they want to represent the defense in public courtroom.

 

[jbeck5]

Please. You’re the one going on about the players and their rehabilitation and the damages they’ll face.

There’s no straw man here. You’re not giving one shit about the real victim. It’s not the rich boys either.

No. I was responding to someone who said people can't rehabilitate.

Try paying attention before you throw accusations around so Willy nilly. Put some effort. Actually read the posts I quoted and what they say and then what I say and don't put words in anyone's mouth.

Thank you.

It's strange because you're dismissing what they did and are more concerned with the well being of the suspect, rather than wanting the suspects to face consequences for their crimes.

We have to find out if they commited those crimes or not first. That's the point.

Once we see evidence that they commited crimes, I will join you on your pitchfork chase. How about that?

It's like saying I'll believe in your god when you show evidence of it. You can come at me with a mob with claims of your god, but claims won't make me believe your god.

Same thing here.

 

[NyQuil]

It’s also kind of funny how the people angry about these guys being tried in the court of public opinion are demanding to see all of the evidence because they want to represent the defense in public courtroom.

To be fair, I don't think there's a lot of due diligence in the court of public opinion.

Do you think most people are familiar enough with the details of the case to be confident about fair judgement and punishment?

That's why the report will be interesting to read.

I'm not saying that public opinion is necessarily wrong, but I do think it tends to arrive at judgement very quickly.

 

[MasterofGrond]

What evidence, for you, is sufficient?

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

No. I was responding to someone who said people can't rehabilitate.

Try paying attention before you throw accusations around so Willy nilly. Put some effort. Actually read the posts I quoted and what they say and then what I say and don't put words in anyone's mouth.

Thank you.



We have to find out if they commited those crimes or not first. That's the point.

Once we see evidence that they commited crimes, I will join you on your pitchfork chase. How about that?

It's like saying I'll believe in your god when you show evidence of it. You can come at me with a mob with claims of your god, but claims won't make me believe your god.

Same thing here.

Your posts are easy to read though. Not a peep about the victim, solely focused on the players.

Uh oh, now you’re mentioning mobs. Even more apparent where you’re going with this.

 

[jbeck5]

I think most crimes can be rehabilitated. Jails are overcrowded and tons of people in there need rehab for drugs, not jail and a record. Off the top of my head there are 4 crimes that mark you for life- rape, necrophilia, pre-pubescent pedophila, and most murder. Most people don’t engage in such behavior when young. Doing so is a sign of a degenerate and maladaptive person. I used to throw a lot of house parties when I was younger and lots of people passed through my place. Sometimes girls would pass out. Never did any guy try anything. It isn’t a case of youthful folly but defective moral compass. I don’t see this as a boys will be boys type scenario. Most boys will not rape a girl. Everyone can learn from their mistakes. Everyone can use a poor choice as a turning point in their life. But as I said before, it is a privilege to play in the NHL. People deserve second chances and a right to earn a crust of bread, but I don’t think they are entitled to be public figures making millions. As I’ve also said before I’m waiting to see what is in the report.

Why can't murder be rehabbed?

I used to work with a guy who killed someone by stabbing some guy at a party in his teens. He now has a job and a family and lives a normal adult life. I don't think he's a risk to stab anyone. I wouldn't feel at risk being near him now.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

These guys participated in a gang rape and there are posters who think a suspension is off limits? Give me a break. If all the offenders get is a suspension, regardless of length, then they should count themselves lucky.

 

[AvroArrow]

We have to find out if they commited those crimes or not first. That's the point.

Once we see evidence that they commited crimes, I will join you on your pitchfork chase. How about that?

It's like saying I'll believe in your god when you show evidence of it. You can come at me with a mob with claims of your god, but claims won't make me believe your god.

Same thing here.

You're still not getting it, the type of evidence you are looking for does not exist. Courts also do not require the kind of evidence that you are demanding.

There are no videos, pictures, confessions, messages, audio clips, or anything.

 

[NyQuil]

You're still not getting it, the type of evidence you are looking for does not exist. Courts also do not require the kind of evidence that you are demanding.

There are no videos, pictures, confessions, messages, audio clips, or anything.

What do you think the report will consist of?

Nothing at all?

There will be players identified, there will be timelines, there will be details about the actions and the state of the victim.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Why can't murder be rehabbed?

I used to work with a guy who killed someone by stabbing some guy at a party in his teens. He now has a job and a family and lives a normal adult life. I don't think he's a risk to stab anyone. I wouldn't feel at risk being near him now.

Something like murder actually has a very successful rehabilitation rate. When most people think of a murder they imagine serial killers or some meticulously planned killing.

The reality is the vast majority of murders are crimes of passion and created by a set of circumstances unlikely to emerge again and easy to handle differently if they do.

This is why intent is so important in criminal proceedings. The higher the intent the higher the chances of it happening again are.

 

[PK]

You're asking for hard tangible evidence. Unless there is a video or pictures, you won't be satisfied. You gotta understand, that kind of evidence doesn't exist in 99% percent of these cases. It's not like the accused was confirming their actions via text message or audio clip or something.

I'm not making that statistic up, it's what our lawyers told us when we were making our case. The most important thing in these cases is the testimony of the victim and suspect, as well as character testimonies of people who were familiar with the suspects and victims.

I guess there’s some misunderstanding going on between the two of us. I’m not asking for any specific evidence here. All I’m asking is that all the evidence go through criminal justice and that any punishment is given only after due process of law. If the main evidence is the victim’s testimony, so be it, it’s not that big of a deal, although we should be careful with that in the era of “believe all victims”. Of course, if there is no evidence, there should be no punishment.

 

[Slats432]

You're still not getting it, the type of evidence you are looking for does not exist. Courts also do not require the kind of evidence that you are demanding.

There are no videos, pictures, confessions, messages, audio clips, or anything.

So you know what evidence there is? Please share.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Why can't murder be rehabbed?

I used to work with a guy who killed someone by stabbing some guy at a party in his teens. He now has a job and a family and lives a normal adult life. I don't think he's a risk to stab anyone. I wouldn't feel at risk being near him now.

That’s why I said “most” murder. Obviously discretion has to be used and a murderer must prove himself, by not having a fiery temper and being patient as time puts itself between the action and the present time

 

[brentashton]

Angela Davis sends her best

Who dat?

Edit - I just googled her. Uh no, I couldn’t be further opposite of that in my political and societal values. Not sure why you were provoked by my earlier comment to post that. But you do you…

 

[Three On Zero]

You're still not getting it, the type of evidence you are looking for does not exist. Courts also do not require the kind of evidence that you are demanding.

There are no videos, pictures, confessions, messages, audio clips, or anything.

Leaning towards this, the police had the report opened and closed once already, unless something new surfaced with this second investigation. Without concrete evidence we likely see the players suspended with mandatory training, the league isn't going to drop the hammer on a crime that can not be proven to take place. If that was how the league operated Kane would be out of this league based on the allegations he had against him.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

What evidence, for you, is sufficient?

For me personally it's any one or any combo of the following

-There was intent and premediation to take advantage of the girl
-Shown the girl was resisting or actively not consenting
-Shown the girl was so clearly incapacitated relative to the players who were also drinking (essentially being passed out or in a stupor) that she couldn't give the choice

Everything I've read anecdotally, it doesn't seem like these requirements were met.