WC: Team Finland 2022 roster talk

[Kezaster]

Fifth after Dahlin, Jones, Seider, Chabot, OEL maybe, if generous. Depends on how you see the likes of Jones, Severson and Hronek.

This is not objective, you saying this is either one of two things. a) you don't watch heiskanen b) you have a personal stake in this.

I have no beef with your assessment as it very clearly not objective. I'm not saying everything has to be ofc but this thing along with generational Dahlin. I'm guessing you were just trying to provoke ill have to keep in mind in the future to simply skip everything you write here.

The picture under here is a copypaste of the playoffs 2019-2020"#2 Heiskanen aged 20."

He's only 22, he's gonna be a great player. I hope he figures out playing a bit more physical.

 

[Kibe]

If constantly being included in various top-10 lists doesn't indicate "elite", I dunno what does. As does having a 10M AAV.

Practically the entire effin' world disagrees with you about Heiskanen, yet you can't help but dump on him every given opportunity. It's hardly rational, no matter how you dress it.


Heiskanen was confirmed to join an hour ago.

Yes i didn't update before my last message and missed that. Great news! Heiskanen was the most important one anyway.

 

[AB13]

This is not objective, you saying this is either one of two things. a) you don't watch heiskanen b) you have a personal stake in this.

I have no beef with your assessment as it very clearly not objective. I'm not saying everything has to be ofc but this thing along with generational Dahlin. I'm guessing you were just trying to provoke ill have to keep in mind in the future to simply skip everything you write here.

The picture under here is a copypaste of the playoffs 2019-2020"#2 Heiskanen aged 20."
View attachment 547792

He's only 22, he's gonna be a great player. I hope he figures out playing a bit more physical.

Heiskanen putting up that many points is the exception, not the norm. In his career, he has a 0.48 points per game in the NHL. That’s just not anywhere near the elite, at all, especially for someone who isn’t great in his own end. Outside of the 2020 playoff run, Heiskanen has been a solid defenceman who is around 40th in NHL scoring for defencemen every season. He was 42nd this season. His defence is also absolutely not clearly better than his offense.

Dahlin is the second highest teenage NHL defenceman of all time. He put up a 0.53 PPG season at 18, a 0.68 PPG season at 19 and a 0.66 PPG season this year. Outside of 20/21 when Buffalo had a historically bad season under a horrendous coach, Dahlin has been one of the best defenceman in the world at creating offence. He is a strong defensive player now too and ahead of Heiskanen there as well, to me.

 

[karhukissa]

Dahlin has been great defensively for a while. The fact that you think Seider is better than Dahlin says all about how little you watch him. Dahlin is a top 10 defenceman in the world, the way he has been playing for the last 5 months, since Krueger got fired. I think he’s just as good as the likes of Fox. But lets not derial the thread too much about Dahlin talk again.

Do you really think Heiskanen is better than Chabot though? Wow.


I just don’t rate Heiskanen as highly as others, that’s fine. Would have let it slide if he said ”we got one of the best defencemen in the tournament” but the implication that Heiskanen is even comparable to a generational player like Dahlin made me a bit upset. I wouldn’t put Heiskanen in the Seider, Chabot bracket either, but it is whatever. I value skill and offensive talent a lot I guess.

It's not my opinion only, you can watch how NHL writers ranked d-man before the season. This tournament doesn't have any d-men ranked higher than Miro, are they stupid too? And not to offend you but based on your previous posts i give your "eye test" evaluations 0 value. And don't pretend that you watch Dallas Stars games, you are just Dahlin fanboy and Miro was his Finnish comparable which is too much to you.

Don't rank guy like Klingberg, who somehow happens to be a Swede, before Miro and then come here with a straight face to make your claims.

 

[AB13]

It's not my opinion only, you can watch how NHL writers ranked d-man before the season. This tournament doesn't have any d-men ranked higher than Miro, are they stupid too? And not to offend you but based on your previous posts i give your "eye test" evaluations 0 value. And don't pretend that you watch Dallas Stars games, you are just Dahlin fanboy and Miro was his Finnish comparable which is too much to you.

”Before the season”. You mean before Dahlin established himself as one of the leagues best defencemen and before Heiskanen had a bit of a down year (if you can call it that) in which he finished 42nd in NHL D-scoring on points and 45th on PPG?

 

[Kezaster]

I'm fully expecting Nummelin-esque carrying in the pp from Miro.

 

[EK47]

Heiskanen vs Dahlin comes down to team needs IMO. Right now I’d rather keep Dahlin on Sweden than swap him for Heiskanen but Finland is probably more in need of a more steady influence on the blir line. For most teams in most cases its Heiskanen right now. Now Sweden has OEL, Larsson and probably the best defenseman outside the NHL in Tömmernes that changes things.

 

[FinPanda]

Heiskanen vs Dahlin comes down to team needs IMO. Right now I’d rather keep Dahlin on Sweden than swap him for Heiskanen but Finland is probably more in need of a more steady influence on the blir line. For most teams in most cases its Heiskanen right now. Now Sweden has OEL, Larsson and probably the best defenseman outside the NHL in Tömmernes that changes things.

Oh I would take Dahlin over Heiskanen for team Finland as well because of his pure offensive potential. But on a game where we need to defend a lead, I would feel more comfortable having Heiskanen than Dahlin on our own zone. It's just a matter of preference. You can say Dahlin is great without a need to downplay how good Heiskanen is.

 

[AB13]

Oh I would take Dahlin over Heiskanen for team Finland as well because of his pure offensive potential. But on a game where we need to defend a lead, I would feel more comfortable having Heiskanen than Dahlin on our own zone. It's just a matter of preference. You can say Dahlin is great without a need to downplay how good Heiskanen is.

Or you could say your opinion on the players, no matter what that opinion is. If you don’t think Heiskanen is as good as Dahlin defensively, you can say that.

 

[FinPanda]

Or you could say your opinion on the players, no matter what that opinion is. If you don’t think Heiskanen is incredibly reliable defensively, you can say that.

You just seem to be wherever there is a Finnish player mentioned and tell everyone how they are not as good as people think. Why don't you praise Swedish players without feeling the need to put down Finns?

 

[karhukissa]

”Before the season”. You mean before Dahlin established himself as one of the leagues best defencemen and before Heiskanen had a bit of a down year (if you can call it that) in which he finished 42nd in NHL D-scoring on points and 45th on PPG?

This is what you get when you argue with person who doesn't understand hockey, i'm sorry.

I didn't know analyzing hockey is this simple, let's open NHL.com, then we can open scoring statistics for d-men. There we see exactly the order of the best defencemen.

You have couple power play assists and that invalidates all mistakes and being a cone on the ice. Miro has so many 3rd assists and great plays every single game which aren't on scoreboard.

That's why you actually need to watch games, instead of waking up in the morning, opening "text tv" and seeing who's best.

 

[AB13]

You just seem to be wherever there is a Finnish player mentioned and tell everyone how they are not as good as people think. Why don't you praise Swedish players without feeling the need to put down Finns?

I only do this with Heiskanen and Dahlin. I praise the likes of Laine all the time. I will say my opinion on the player, regardless of nationality. I rate many finns. I am also not saying Heiskanen is bad, just that he isn’t as good as people think. He is still a useful player and a good #2D.

 

[AB13]

This is what you get when you argue with person who doesn't understand hockey, i'm sorry.

I didn't know analyzing hockey is this simple, let's open NHL.com, then we can open scoring statistics for d-men. There we see exactly the order of the best defencemen.

You have couple power play assists and that invalidates all mistakes and being a cone on the ice. Miro has so many 3rd assists and great plays every single game which aren't on scoreboard.

That's why you actually need to watch games, instead of waking up in the morning, opening "text tv" and seeing who's best.

I don’t rate players using stats. I watch them. The stats argument was a response to a guy claiming Heiskanen was some great point producer using a short playoff sample size. But I use eyes to rate players. That’s how I know how good Dahlin is defensively, instead of looking at +- and stuff. I see him defend the rush well, I see him win physical battles all the time, and I see him use his stick very smartly. I transitioning the puck and controlling play with elite passing, and I see Heiskanen being great at that too. Seems like you are not watching though. Clear from your outdated assesment of Dahlin. He has become a brilliant, and very steady defensive player. Have you watched him play full games this season at all or are you just looking at highlights of him conceding goals under Krueger? Ask Sabres fans. You do not understand Dahlin, at all.

But I also value scoring a lot. I don’t think you can be a top 10 defenceman or whatever without putting up good offensive numbers. Using eyes too, I do not think Heiskanen has elite puck skills and I do not think he is an elite offensive player. To say point production isn’t important is not fair.

 

[Snowsii]

I only do this with Heiskanen and Dahlin. I praise the likes of Laine all the time. I will say my opinion on the player, regardless of nationality. I rate many finns. I am also not saying Heiskanen is bad, just that he isn’t as good as people think. He is still a useful player and a good #2D.

Well.. No one believes you.. You said just couple post ago, that you believe Dahlin becoming better than Fox and Makar..

You still havent showed any proofs, Dahlin being better than Heiskanen in defense.

 

[AB13]

Well.. No one believes you.. You said just couple post ago, that you believe Dahlin becoming better than Fox and Makar..

You still havent showed any proofs, Dahlin being better than Heiskanen in defense.

I believe what I say. You don’t have to. I’m still going to argue my case. Doesn’t matter though, I don’t have the energy to debate this more. Enjoy Heiskanen at the worlds I guess. Will be your second best player after Granlund and a big boost to your medal chances.

 

[Snowsii]

I believe what I say. You don’t have to. I’m still going to argue my case. Doesn’t matter though, I don’t have the energy to debate this more. Enjoy Heiskanen at the worlds I guess. Will be your second best player after Granlund and a big boost to your medal chances.

How convient that you run out of energy, when asked to show proof about your claims.

And enjoy yourself also, hopefully someone says yes to Sweden from NHL (what's with all those "No's"?)

 

[karhukissa]

I don’t rate players using stats. I watch them. The stats argument was a response to a guy claiming Heiskanen was some great point producer using a short playoff sample size. But I use eyes to rate players. That’s how I know how good Dahlin is defensively, instead of looking at +- and stuff. I see him transitioning the puck and controlling play with elite passing, and I see Heiskanen be great at that too.

But I also value scoring a lot. I don’t think you can be a top 10 defenceman or whatever without putting up good offensive numbers. Using eyes too, I do not think Heiskanen has elite puck skills and I do not think he is a great offensive player.

Obviously i value scoring aswell, Dahlin is good offensively there's no doubt. But there are many other factors too, Dahlin had 10 games more than Heiskanen and if both had same amount of games, their point difference would be ~7 for Dahlin.

Does that 7 points make a huge difference? Both are playing on a low scoring teams, Dallas for example has one line that's capable of scoring points and with Buffalo it's pretty much the same.

I don't say that Heiskanen or Dahlin would put up Makar level numbers on Avs, but that's why you shouldn't put too much value to d-men points when comparing them. John Carlson gave saucers to the best sniper of our era, does that make John Carlson superior d-man?

 

[FiLe]

I am also not saying Heiskanen is bad, just that he isn’t as good as people think.

If you intend to be there giving your dissenting opinion every time someone's going to rank Heiskanen among the best d-men in the world, you're going to be very, very, very busy for the foreseeable future - if the expert opinions and people with too much money are to be believed.

This is not to say you aren't entitled to your opinion, but... you might want to consider a healthier hobby. Like collecting stamps. Or painting miniatures.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Both Dahlin and Heiskanen is good offensivly but Heiskanen is better defensivly. Thought Dahlin is more physical.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

I thought d-mens' main job was to defend but gues I was wrong.

 

[Kezaster]

Both Dahlin and Heiskanen is good offensivly but Heiskanen is better defensivly. Thought Dahlin is more physical.

I hope Dahlin gets out of the well known rookie killer shithole that is BUF sooner rather than later. I put absolutely zero stock to them being any better next year.

 

[AB13]

Obviously i value scoring aswell, Dahlin is good offensively there's no doubt. But there are many other factors too, Dahlin had 10 games more than Heiskanen and if both had same amount of games, their point difference would be ~7 for Dahlin.

Does that 7 points make a huge difference? Both are playing on a low scoring teams, Dallas for example has one line that's capable of scoring points and with Buffalo it's pretty much the same.

I don't say that Heiskanen or Dahlin would put up Makar level numbers on Avs, but that's why you shouldn't put too much value to d-men points when comparing them. John Carlson gave saucers to the best sniper of our era, does that make John Carlson superior d-man?

Dahlin has much less help with his team than Heiskanen, to me, still. I get the point though. I do think Dahlin would put up Makar level points on the Avs, however, based on his skillset. I don’t get where you get 7 points from. Heiskanen scored 36 points in 70. That’s a 42 point pace. Dahlin scored 53 points in 80 games. That’s a 54.5 point pace. So 12/13 points would be the difference. 12/13 points would be 1/3 of Heiskanen’s points. Add 1/3 of Heiskanens points and you have Dahlin’s production on what I think is a worse team.

Team situation also affects defensive play, as it does offensive play. Heiskanen plays for a well coached defensive unit in one of the leagues best defensive teams, in front of Oettinger who is great. Dahlin plays on one of the worst defensive teams in the league with Tokarski behind him. That’s obviously bound to affect perceptions of defensive play.

I thought d-mens' main job was to defend but gues I was wrong.

That’s wrong, very wrong. It’s just as important to drive play and create offence. Just like top centers should be able to defend.

 

[Solnik]

Dahlin has been great defensively for a while. The fact that you think Seider is better than Dahlin says all about how little you watch him. Dahlin is a top 10 defenceman in the world, the way he has been playing for the last 5 months, since Krueger got fired. I think he’s just as good as the likes of Fox. But lets not derial the thread too much about Dahlin talk again.

And here is an example of Dahlin's stellar defensive play:

 

[AB13]

And here is an example of Dahlin's stellar defensive play:

That’s nitpicking. Can’t judge defence on highlights and some mistakes. You need to watch whole games for long periods of time to judge defensive ability. He was fantastic defensively the last 5 months under Granato. When trusted with being the primary defensive player and PKer, he really stepped up. Ask Sabres fans today.

 

[Hntz]

Two pages of Dahlin vs. Heiskanen talk on this thread? Can the swedish trolls get banned or something? Please.

On topic, Heiskanen is going to be a nice addition and creates a bit of a positive problem on who is going to be canned from the PP. Vatanen or Lehtonen?

Hope we can still get someone like Haula or Lindell on the team.